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Old 01-03-2014   #181
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Give me Aaron Donald in the first round if we are going to build the DL... I don't care if Todd McShay, Kiper, and company all have him as a 2nd rounder. That guys plays football!

I do not understand the Clowney hype. When was the last time a physical freak who showed inconsistent effort, focus, results was taken high in the 1st round and was not at least a mild disappointment?..

Perhaps he will slide due to concerns and then someone will get a steal. Fine. I would argue that the slide may be the trigger to motivate and focus him. Picking him #1 only reinforces that his approach was fully with merit.
He had very consistent effort until this yr when he knew he would be a top 5 pick if he never played a down. There was too much $$$$ to lose if he got hurt to give it his all this yr. I cant blame him.
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Old 01-03-2014   #182
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Clowney? Dalton is your franchise then what,This thread was started by a TB fan that thinkks he's a franchise QB. LOL


Unless you're Cincy and like Dalton as your franchise QB.

No thanks
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Old 01-03-2014   #183
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Everything that's been posted indicates O'Brien likes big, strong QBs. I could see a situation where we draft Mettenberger with the 1st pick in the 2nd round and bring in a free agent off off the street for a year. This is if we choose the Clowney route. I'd personally prefer Aaron Murray though in the 3rd or 4th if this is the thinking because of his consistency.
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Old 01-03-2014   #184
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mussop View Post
Do it!

All you have to do is watch nc game for starters. Clemson wasn't doubling him either.
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Old 01-03-2014   #185
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Clowney? Dalton is your franchise then what,This thread was started by a TB fan that thinkks he's a franchise QB. LOL


Unless you're Cincy and like Dalton as your franchise QB.

No thanks
I think it's a serious question to the people wanting Clowney #1 overall. If he's taken with the pick, how would you address the QB position from that point on? I'm against taking Clowney at 1.1, but if he's the guy I would then hope the Texans trade back into the first round for a QB they covet like Blake Bortles or Derek Carr.
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Old 01-03-2014   #186
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
All you have to do is watch nc game for starters. Clemson wasn't doubling him either.
Let's test that theory:

0:24 - Chipped by the running back while being blocked by LT, is still a half-second away from sacking the QB

1:01 - Double-teamed by RT and RG, splits the double team and forces the QB to throw it away

1:23 - Double-teamed by C and LG, splits double team and gets in QB's face who is able to check it down at the last second

1:37 - Double-teamed by LT and LG, does not break free but the play is stuffed at or just behind the line of scrimmage by another player

1:47 - Clowney is too aggressive and is offsides, but on the replay you see both the LT and LG face him at the same time

2:14 - Chipped by RB in addition to LT blocking him

2:23 - Swims past LT and is immediately chipped by the RB

2:31 - Swims past LT, is immediately chipped by RB, still chases down QB from behind after forcing him to run away rather than pass

3:19 - Chipped by RB while being blocked by RT, dropped back before rushing up the middle, but got caught in the slog of players and the QB was able to get away

4:59 - Is being blocked by LT who receives help from LG, QB gets sacked from too much pressure up the middle

5:24 - Double-teamed by LT and LG; Clowney at this point looks a little fatigue but the play is made away from him, with the QB throwing to Ebron

5:32 - Clowney dashes past the RT and is immediately chipped by the RB

5:58 - Beats the RT inside too quickly for the RB to help out, who is on the other side and was expecting to help outside. After the QB makes his pass, Clowney is tackled from behind by the RT, much like how Cushing was injured against the Jets

6:55 - Swims the RT (this guy is reminding me a lot of Watt with all these damn swim moves, haha) too quickly for both the RT and RG to double-team him effectively, and the RG can only hold so much before Clowney gets a QB hit in, forcing a throw out of bounds in the red zone.

7:10 - Brushes by the RT, chipped by the RB, and gets his hand on the QB but is unable to drag him down (QB was still forced to throw it out of bounds). Notably, the camera shows Clowney bent double before and after the play, probably due to a combination of the stomach virus he had been suffering from as well as exhaustion from the game.

So while he wasn't double'd on every snap, he still garnered a significant amount of them during the UNC game. In addition, a lot of the plays he was in on usually involved running or throwing away from him, or throwing a screen over him in order to take advantage of his aggressiveness. There were a few times he was left unblocked and he either barreled into the running back or chased him down from the other side. As I mentioned earlier, Clowney had been dealing with a stomach virus prior to this game.

In addition, because of the cut-up nature of that youtube link, without watching the full game would I know the context of every snap, such as whether Clowney had been resting after a long South Carolina drive or with little rest. Brett Kollmann goes into a similar analysis for Clowney's game against Tennessee, which I would highly recommend reading.

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
All you have to do is watch nc game for starters.
So maybe you don't know what you're talking about?
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Old 01-03-2014   #187
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Let's test that theory:

0:24 - Chipped by the running back while being blocked by LT, is still a half-second away from sacking the QB

1:01 - Double-teamed by RT and RG, splits the double team and forces the QB to throw it away

1:23 - Double-teamed by C and LG, splits double team and gets in QB's face who is able to check it down at the last second

1:37 - Double-teamed by LT and LG, does not break free but the play is stuffed at or just behind the line of scrimmage by another player

1:47 - Clowney is too aggressive and is offsides, but on the replay you see both the LT and LG face him at the same time

2:14 - Chipped by RB in addition to LT blocking him

2:23 - Swims past LT and is immediately chipped by the RB

2:31 - Swims past LT, is immediately chipped by RB, still chases down QB from behind after forcing him to run away rather than pass

3:19 - Chipped by RB while being blocked by RT, dropped back before rushing up the middle, but got caught in the slog of players and the QB was able to get away

4:59 - Is being blocked by LT who receives help from LG, QB gets sacked from too much pressure up the middle

5:24 - Double-teamed by LT and LG; Clowney at this point looks a little fatigue but the play is made away from him, with the QB throwing to Ebron

5:32 - Clowney dashes past the RT and is immediately chipped by the RB

5:58 - Beats the RT inside too quickly for the RB to help out, who is on the other side and was expecting to help outside. After the QB makes his pass, Clowney is tackled from behind by the RT, much like how Cushing was injured against the Jets

6:55 - Swims the RT (this guy is reminding me a lot of Watt with all these damn swim moves, haha) too quickly for both the RT and RG to double-team him effectively, and the RG can only hold so much before Clowney gets a QB hit in, forcing a throw out of bounds in the red zone.

7:10 - Brushes by the RT, chipped by the RB, and gets his hand on the QB but is unable to drag him down (QB was still forced to throw it out of bounds). Notably, the camera shows Clowney bent double before and after the play, probably due to a combination of the stomach virus he had been suffering from as well as exhaustion from the game.

So while he wasn't double'd on every snap, he still garnered a significant amount of them during the UNC game. In addition, a lot of the plays he was in on usually involved running or throwing away from him, or throwing a screen over him in order to take advantage of his aggressiveness. There were a few times he was left unblocked and he either barreled into the running back or chased him down from the other side. As I mentioned earlier, Clowney had been dealing with a stomach virus prior to this game.

In addition, because of the cut-up nature of that youtube link, without watching the full game would I know the context of every snap, such as whether Clowney had been resting after a long South Carolina drive or with little rest. Brett Kollmann goes into a similar analysis for Clowney's game against Tennessee, which I would highly recommend reading.



So maybe you don't know what you're talking about?

How do you think Watt would do with a plaer like this opposite him?
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Old 01-03-2014   #188
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by JCTexan View Post
I think it's a serious question to the people wanting Clowney #1 overall. If he's taken with the pick, how would you address the QB position from that point on? I'm against taking Clowney at 1.1, but if he's the guy I would then hope the Texans trade back into the first round for a QB they covet like Blake Bortles or Derek Carr.
Trade for Mallett or draft Mettenberger at 2-1 or slight trade up to get Mettenberger,
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Old 01-03-2014   #189
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
How do you think Watt would do with a plaer like this opposite him?
Clowney had Melvin ***king Ingram across from him his Freshman year and got 9 sacks; you tell me.

Last edited by bhsman; 01-03-2014 at 02:58 AM.
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Old 01-03-2014   #190
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Clowney had Melvin ***king Ingram across from him his Freshman year and got 9 sacks; you tell me.
You act like Ingram wasn't a player in college. He wasz kinda on his way until the injuries. No one will dispute clowney when he's motivated and ready to play. I for one didn't have a prblem with marios effort considering they had no one inside and a shotty back end to get the qb to hold the ball.

I've watched clowney soph yr and this year and sayinghe didn't want to get hurt is an excuse. I've seen his better games when he didn't even register a sack this year. I've also watched games when he quit on doubles and those chip by the rb weren't even real. We've seen the really good rushers disregard a chip by a rb and use it as leverage. We've seen freeney,mathis,allen and dudes like that leverage help. Most tackles will tell youthey know how they want to set and a rb or help throws them off.

Clowney is a propect no doubt. I high end one to boot, I also know that the cheifs had 3e5 sacks leading to the broncos game and peyton didn't even have to wash his uniform. I for one have watched enough of clowney to know he can play standing up with ease. I've also seen enough to know there are some other high end rush guys in the 2nd and even 3rd rd. Also there are some young guys on the come like Jason Worlids from the steelers and jerry hughes from the bills who are starting to emerge and won't cost much.
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Old 01-03-2014   #191
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

That wasn't an insult on Ingram, quite the opposite. I think putting Clowney and Watt across from/next to each other will be the best thing we could do for their respective careers. The defense, and the team by extension, will only benefit from that.
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Old 01-03-2014   #192
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Anyone doubting Clowney's talent or ability is crazy. He's the single best pure pass rusher I've seen coming out in at least 10 years. You can question his motor, but questioning his ability is silly. Paired up with JJ Watt they would create havoc if he plays up to his potential.

And..... thats where I stop with it. I don't know what this guy is motivated by. How great does he want to be? Does he aspire to win Championships? Hall of Fame induction? Pro Bowls? These are all questions I don't know. Thats why the Texans organization gets paid the big bucks because I'm sure they'll dig into every aspect of this kid's life and thinking. If he doesn't aspire to be one of the greatest then I would pass and wouldn't look back.
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Old 01-03-2014   #193
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by TexansFTW View Post
Who needs a QB?? We have Schaub, Yates and Keenum! We don't need to fill that position. More pass rushers and tackles and we are basically in the super bowl! Book your ticket today.
I understand your sarcasm, and I realize the idea of taking our existing QB's forward is a stretch and certainly against the grain of what most would want. However, I don't believe TB or anyone else in this QB draft discussion would have fared any better than what we saw in 2013. If nothing is done to improve the line, 2014 will be much of a repeat of 2013 in terms of backfield success. Whether we address the O-line needs in the draft or free agency, it can't be ignored, unless the goal is to have 1.1 in 2015 too.

I'm not against making changes in the QB roster, but contrary to your take, I do feel adding more pass rushers and tackles will have a greater overall impact than wasting 1.1 on a QB.

I also believe drafting to get to the Super Bowl in 2014 is unrealistic.
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Old 01-03-2014   #194
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
He had very consistent effort until this yr when he knew he would be a top 5 pick if he never played a down. There was too much $$$$ to lose if he got hurt to give it his all this yr. I cant blame him.
There will be even more money he could possibly lose if he gets hurt in a contract year, or maybe if he gets franchise tagged.

You go down that route and there will always be more money to be lost if you fear getting hurt.

I can blame him. I still like him though with that said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail.Blazr View Post
I understand your sarcasm, and I realize the idea of taking our existing QB's forward is a stretch and certainly against the grain of what most would want. However, I don't believe TB or anyone else in this QB draft discussion would have fared any better than what we saw in 2013. If nothing is done to improve the line, 2014 will be much of a repeat of 2013 in terms of backfield success. Whether we address the O-line needs in the draft or free agency, it can't be ignored, unless the goal is to have 1.1 in 2015 too.

I'm not against making changes in the QB roster, but contrary to your take, I do feel adding more pass rushers and tackles will have a greater overall impact than wasting 1.1 on a QB.
That's fine, we disagree. I believe that IR guys and guys like D Brown coming back healthy will improve this OLine more than adequately enough that we DON'T even need to address the line minus late round (4th+) picks.
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Old 01-03-2014   #195
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Let's test that theory:

0:24 - Chipped by the running back while being blocked by LT, is still a half-second away from sacking the QB

1:01 - Double-teamed by RT and RG, splits the double team and forces the QB to throw it away

1:23 - Double-teamed by C and LG, splits double team and gets in QB's face who is able to check it down at the last second

1:37 - Double-teamed by LT and LG, does not break free but the play is stuffed at or just behind the line of scrimmage by another player

1:47 - Clowney is too aggressive and is offsides, but on the replay you see both the LT and LG face him at the same time

2:14 - Chipped by RB in addition to LT blocking him

2:23 - Swims past LT and is immediately chipped by the RB

2:31 - Swims past LT, is immediately chipped by RB, still chases down QB from behind after forcing him to run away rather than pass

3:19 - Chipped by RB while being blocked by RT, dropped back before rushing up the middle, but got caught in the slog of players and the QB was able to get away

4:59 - Is being blocked by LT who receives help from LG, QB gets sacked from too much pressure up the middle

5:24 - Double-teamed by LT and LG; Clowney at this point looks a little fatigue but the play is made away from him, with the QB throwing to Ebron

5:32 - Clowney dashes past the RT and is immediately chipped by the RB

5:58 - Beats the RT inside too quickly for the RB to help out, who is on the other side and was expecting to help outside. After the QB makes his pass, Clowney is tackled from behind by the RT, much like how Cushing was injured against the Jets

6:55 - Swims the RT (this guy is reminding me a lot of Watt with all these damn swim moves, haha) too quickly for both the RT and RG to double-team him effectively, and the RG can only hold so much before Clowney gets a QB hit in, forcing a throw out of bounds in the red zone.

7:10 - Brushes by the RT, chipped by the RB, and gets his hand on the QB but is unable to drag him down (QB was still forced to throw it out of bounds). Notably, the camera shows Clowney bent double before and after the play, probably due to a combination of the stomach virus he had been suffering from as well as exhaustion from the game.

So while he wasn't double'd on every snap, he still garnered a significant amount of them during the UNC game. In addition, a lot of the plays he was in on usually involved running or throwing away from him, or throwing a screen over him in order to take advantage of his aggressiveness. There were a few times he was left unblocked and he either barreled into the running back or chased him down from the other side. As I mentioned earlier, Clowney had been dealing with a stomach virus prior to this game.

In addition, because of the cut-up nature of that youtube link, without watching the full game would I know the context of every snap, such as whether Clowney had been resting after a long South Carolina drive or with little rest. Brett Kollmann goes into a similar analysis for Clowney's game against Tennessee, which I would highly recommend reading.



So maybe you don't know what you're talking about?
Good Job!
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Old 01-03-2014   #196
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Do people consider getting chipped by the RB a "double-team?"
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Old 01-03-2014   #197
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Do people consider getting chipped by the RB a "double-team?"
I do, it is usually part of the game plan to help disrupt a player. Without a RB/FB helping out the damage could be much worse.
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Old 01-03-2014   #198
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Preface: I only read the last 3 pages.

Clowney is the best player in this draft. That shouldn't be a question. You can question his effort or conditioning, but you are lying to yourself if you question his talent.

With that out of the way, I take Clowney THEN I take a LB like Mosley. I don't trust Cushing to stay healthy, and even when he is healthy, there is no talent around him to make plays. Think of it like San Frans front 7. Clowney is better than Smith. Cushing is in the same league as Willis, but they have Bowman as well. Add a second top tier LB and that shores up our defense. That's before we add in the best defensive player in football. Cushing and Mosley can both play in either scheme.

Address the QB through a trade. A rookie QB isn't going to cut it, and there isn't a QB good enough to be the face of the franchise. There is no Andrew Luck. Build the defense, trade for a competent QB and dominate one side of the ball. Follow the SF and SEA models. Elite defense and competent offense. Any QB is walking into an offense with an All-Pro LT, C, WR, and RB, as well as another 1st round WR. Sure, if Andrew Luck was there this isn't a debate or a question, but there isn't a talent like that to change a franchise so you take the BPA. The BPA is Clowney.
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Old 01-03-2014   #199
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Do people consider getting chipped by the RB a "double-team?"
I distinguishee between the to in my post; the puropose in the game (or at least the UNC game, but I've seen it occur in others) is not to take Clowney of out a play entirely but to just slow him down. If he were to play for us, he wouldn't be playing opposite Kelcy Quarles and Will Sutton (who have certainly taken advantage of all the attention Clowney receives and gotten sacks with all the single blocking they get) but JJ Watt and Whitney Mercilus.
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Old 01-03-2014   #200
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungTexanFan View Post
Preface: I only read the last 3 pages.

Clowney is the best player in this draft. That shouldn't be a question. You can question his effort or conditioning, but you are lying to yourself if you question his talent.

With that out of the way, I take Clowney THEN I take a LB like Mosley. I don't trust Cushing to stay healthy, and even when he is healthy, there is no talent around him to make plays. Think of it like San Frans front 7. Clowney is better than Smith. Cushing is in the same league as Willis, but they have Bowman as well. Add a second top tier LB and that shores up our defense. That's before we add in the best defensive player in football. Cushing and Mosley can both play in either scheme.

Address the QB through a trade. A rookie QB isn't going to cut it, and there isn't a QB good enough to be the face of the franchise. There is no Andrew Luck. Build the defense, trade for a competent QB and dominate one side of the ball. Follow the SF and SEA models. Elite defense and competent offense. Any QB is walking into an offense with an All-Pro LT, C, WR, and RB, as well as another 1st round WR. Sure, if Andrew Luck was there this isn't a debate or a question, but there isn't a talent like that to change a franchise so you take the BPA. The BPA is Clowney.
So what is your take on Clowney's effort over the last season? Also, what QB's do you have in mind for trade?
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