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Old 12-18-2013   #101
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

I was just graphically showing one possibility of a trade, and the inherent value in trading down from the 1-1 pick, with a team which had previously been mentioned on this thread. Like I said, we're just pissin' in the wind and who knows what will develop as we approach draft day - and this includes our coaching change.
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Old 12-18-2013   #102
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Moses has played LT/RT/RG in his career. I've watched him many times and he's comparable to James. The reason I've got him rated higher than James is his versatility.

I can see where you're coming from comparing him to Brooks. Both are huge tough guys who move well. Difference is Moses has performed very well against ACC comp and is in shape, although huge.
Thanks good info. My understanding is Moses has kept weight under control this season. Would hate to see him in same doghouse that Brooks found himself in. James is a RT only.
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Old 12-18-2013   #103
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
Then that is not a true BPA selection but based upon need.
ask yourself why are QB's taken so high when they're not the "quote" BPA? or that QB position is the highest paid amongst all positions on average in the NFL. add it all up & you might just come up with a better formula to determine "BPA"
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Old 12-18-2013   #104
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
ask yourself why are QB's taken so high when they're not the "quote" BPA? or that QB position is the highest paid amongst all positions on average in the NFL. add it all up & you might just come up with a better formula to determine "BPA"
and that is why I' m not a BPA guy for most part. QBs are what most fans associate with as the "leader" that most want to see themselves as. QBs are always in the spotlight as they touch ball every down. No doubt they are most important player on team. I just hope you are correct and I'm not on Bridgewater as I think strong chance he is 1-1.
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Old 12-19-2013   #105
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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and that is why I' m not a BPA guy for most part. QBs are what most fans associate with as the "leader" that most want to see themselves as. QBs are always in the spotlight as they touch ball every down. No doubt they are most important player on team. I just hope you are correct and I'm not on Bridgewater as I think strong chance he is 1-1.
but don't you see that invariably QB is BPA, if for no other reason supply & demand which creates best player available in first place. Joeckel was a superior LT to Jake, on the same team & Joeckel was secondary in LT rankings to Fisher (2013 draft). To say Matthews is now #1 rated prospect in this draft is dubious at best, these rankings are arbitrary & open to discussion, which is why this forum exists.
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Old 12-19-2013   #106
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
Agreed. We don't have to steal three 1st round picks off a team for the trade to be successful. If we don't like anybody at #1, we could trade back to #6 or so and take the #38 this year and a 2nd next year. People will look at the draft value chart and say we cheated ourselves, but the value of the pick is all about the talent available in the draft. Trading back 5 spots (from a spot you already don't want to be in) and grabbing an extra 2nd this year and a 2nd next year is a huge win for me. I could care less what the "value" chart says about it.
If the #1 pick in the NFL draft is only worth two 2nd RD picks, odds are that no team will be wanting to trade up to #1.
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Old 12-19-2013   #107
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
but don't you see that invariably QB is BPA, if for no other reason supply & demand which creates best player available in first place. Joeckel was a superior LT to Jake, on the same team & Joeckel was secondary in LT rankings to Fisher (2013 draft). To say Matthews is now #1 rated prospect in this draft is dubious at best, these rankings are arbitrary & open to discussion, which is why this forum exists.
If we are going to use a source and both you and I use ESPN, then we cannot then say it is dubious. We may disagree but that is opinion just as is ESPN's. QB is not always BPA and I think this draft supports that. Both Matthews and Mosely are better if you include risk factor and Barr is equal to Bridgewater.

I think need (supply and demand) does create BPA which is not same as being the best player.
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Old 12-19-2013   #108
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
If the #1 pick in the NFL draft is only worth two 2nd RD picks, odds are that no team will be wanting to trade up to #1.
We could obviously get more than that, but I was painting the picture that a trade out of #1 can still be beneficial for us even if we don't land the RGIII-type deal that everyone wants to happen.

I don't think anyone will be willing to trade up to #1 though. I think they might trade up if we are desperate to trade out, but in that scenario we aren't going to get the best end of the deal because other teams will know they have the leverage.
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Old 12-19-2013   #109
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

A team could want Clowney or Barr so the focus does not have to be on a QB especially with all the steam about Bortles being a high pick.
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Old 12-19-2013   #110
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
If we are going to use a source and both you and I use ESPN, then we cannot then say it is dubious. We may disagree but that is opinion just as is ESPN's. QB is not always BPA and I think this draft supports that. Both Matthews and Mosely are better if you include risk factor and Barr is equal to Bridgewater.

I think need (supply and demand) does create BPA which is not same as being the best player.
I use ourlads scouting services, not perfect but reliable enough & while I didn't agree with them last year, their BPA was a QB. Go figure. There are exceptions like Calvin Johnson & Mario Williams but generally a QB deemed to be franchise worthy trumps all.
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Old 12-19-2013   #111
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
I use ourlads scouting services, not perfect but reliable enough & while I didn't agree with them last year, their BPA was a QB. Go figure. There are exceptions like Calvin Johnson & Mario Williams but generally a QB deemed to be franchise worthy trumps all.
Definitely agree. Unfortunately that does not apply in this draft. lol Reminds me of our old debates for 3 Amigos mocks.
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Old 12-19-2013   #112
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
Definitely agree. Unfortunately that does not apply in this draft. lol Reminds me of our old debates for 3 Amigos mocks.
Not really directed to you.

How many QBs are in the league right now you would consider franchise guys who were drafted after the top half of the 2nd round?

Brady - no doubt, frankly falls into the blind damn luck category.
Russell Wilson - sure looks like it so far.
Nick Foles - again, sure looks good so far.

Now how many have been drafted in that time period?

There have been 25 drafted in the bottom half of the 2nd or the 3rd in that time frame. Figured going all the way down to the 6th would be goofy. That's 2 out of 25.

The drop off in waiting a round has to be considered.
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Old 12-19-2013   #113
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by Texan_Bill View Post
"Jane, you ignorant slut!"

This draft is rich with QB's.... Just sayin'....

I mean after all Derek Carr would be available...
Rich with good QBs is not the same as rich in elite QBs.
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Old 12-19-2013   #114
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Not really directed to you.

How many QBs are in the league right now you would consider franchise guys who were drafted after the top half of the 2nd round?

Brady - no doubt, frankly falls into the blind damn luck category.
Russell Wilson - sure looks like it so far.
Nick Foles - again, sure looks good so far.

Now how many have been drafted in that time period?

There have been 25 drafted in the bottom half of the 2nd or the 3rd in that time frame. Figured going all the way down to the 6th would be goofy. That's 2 out of 25.

The drop off in waiting a round has to be considered.
Great post and that's exactly what I've been trying to explain for the past 2 weeks.

Can you find a franchise QB in the 2nd or 3rd round? Yes. But the odds are nowhere near as good as the 1st round. Talk about 1st round busts all you want, but the success rate is far higher for 1st round picks.
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Old 12-19-2013   #115
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
Definitely agree. Unfortunately that does not apply in this draft. lol Reminds me of our old debates for 3 Amigos mocks.
Geno Smith was OLads highest graded player last years draft. I would grade Bridgewater, Bortles & Manziel as better pro prospects. IF Texans do not get one of those three I believe they've wasted an opportunity to grab their franchise QB. Therefore if you feel good about all three I would consider trading down but not past the "3" spot
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Old 12-19-2013   #116
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Not really directed to you.

How many QBs are in the league right now you would consider franchise guys who were drafted after the top half of the 2nd round?

Brady - no doubt, frankly falls into the blind damn luck category.
Russell Wilson - sure looks like it so far.
Nick Foles - again, sure looks good so far.

Now how many have been drafted in that time period?

There have been 25 drafted in the bottom half of the 2nd or the 3rd in that time frame. Figured going all the way down to the 6th would be goofy. That's 2 out of 25.

The drop off in waiting a round has to be considered.
how many quarterbacks today would you consider franchise? since 2004 it's been very hit or miss with the first overall ... eli manning, alex smith, jamarcus russell, matt stafford, sam bradford, cam newton, and andrew luck. it gets ugly before then. brees and rodgers were late firsts, kaepernick should be mentioned, andy dalton, tony romo, ben went 11th, and so on. unless you're the colts, the elite level quarterback isnt landed on with the first pick, it's a very talented player that's built upon.
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Old 12-19-2013   #117
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
BPA for Texans has to be a QB they can insert into starting role & become face of the franchise.
There has to be one of those guys in the draft for that to happen ..... Im not sold on the fact that there is one.

If you take one anyhow and he's a bust .... there will be ALL PRO's and ProBowlers taken behind that bust of a QB .... Tell me again that's BPA !!

(that's a hypothetical post)
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Old 12-19-2013   #118
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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There has to be one of those guys in the draft for that to happen ..... Im not sold on the fact that there is one.

If you take one anyhow and he's a bust .... there will be ALL PRO's and ProBowlers taken behind that bust of a QB .... Tell me again that's BPA !!

(that's a hypothetical post)
You have to take the player that is going to help your franchise the most. Not the top ranked nationally media darling du jour.

If that is a qb then awesome. If not, that is awesome also. Go pick a Watt and not an Okoye
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Old 12-19-2013   #119
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

I really like Oregon CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu. For his position I would grade him on level playing field with Matthews. A premier CB = a premier LT. Still QB will trump them both, higher risk, higher reward. Nice try corrosion to stir the proverbial
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Old 12-20-2013   #120
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Not really directed to you.

How many QBs are in the league right now you would consider franchise guys who were drafted after the top half of the 2nd round?

Brady - no doubt, frankly falls into the blind damn luck category.
Russell Wilson - sure looks like it so far.
Nick Foles - again, sure looks good so far.

Now how many have been drafted in that time period?

There have been 25 drafted in the bottom half of the 2nd or the 3rd in that time frame. Figured going all the way down to the 6th would be goofy. That's 2 out of 25.

The drop off in waiting a round has to be considered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
Great post and that's exactly what I've been trying to explain for the past 2 weeks.

Can you find a franchise QB in the 2nd or 3rd round? Yes. But the odds are nowhere near as good as the 1st round. Talk about 1st round busts all you want, but the success rate is far higher for 1st round picks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
Geno Smith was OLads highest graded player last years draft. I would grade Bridgewater, Bortles & Manziel as better pro prospects. IF Texans do not get one of those three I believe they've wasted an opportunity to grab their franchise QB. Therefore if you feel good about all three I would consider trading down but not past the "3" spot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
There has to be one of those guys in the draft for that to happen ..... Im not sold on the fact that there is one.

If you take one anyhow and he's a bust .... there will be ALL PRO's and ProBowlers taken behind that bust of a QB .... Tell me again that's BPA !!

(that's a hypothetical post)

Lots of really good points here. And while I agree and have been saying the same thing, There is precedent for having a dominating defense as a way to win the big one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JB View Post
You have to take the player that is going to help your franchise the most. Not the top ranked nationally media darling du jour.

If that is a qb then awesome. If not, that is awesome also. Go pick a Watt and not an Okoye
Playing devils advocate here. Despite McNairs remarks that this should be a quick turnaround, a two year plan could be the wiser way to go.

There is a lot of talk of next years draft having more talented QB's. Would it be unreasonable to think that bolstering the defense in this draft and riding this year out with a vet QB could be the better plan in the long run?

For instance say we bring in a new DC who sticks with a 3/4. How would this make our defense look?
1.) Javedon Clowney DE South Carolina
2.) Aaron Donald DT Pittsburgh
3.) Shayne Skov LB Stanford

Let them grow together and go after our QB next year.
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