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Old 12-18-2013   #81
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
You have to take into account that QB contracts are extremely cheap in the draft now, thanks to the new CBA.
That really only affects the top 10 picks and applies to all positions. You could equally say teams are now freed up to take positions they wouldn't have considered before in the top 10 because of the expense. For instance there wouldn't even be a conversation about Matthews under the old cba unless he was going to play LT immediately.
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Old 12-18-2013   #82
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

Tradayveon Clowney could be better than Mario Williams, who was a #1 overall selection; or, he could be Glenn Dorsey, who was drafted 5th overall and has 6 QB sacks in 6 seasons.

The draft is a crap shoot. I'd aim for a QB, because if it hits, your team will win year-in-and-year-out.
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Old 12-18-2013   #83
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

I think it should be remembered that Texans desperately needing a LT were willing to gamble and trade down with risk of still getting a OT a few years ago. I remember Kubiak saying that he had left the room & upon returning discovered the GM was considering another trade down & Kubiak insisted on pulling the deal for Brown. Yes, there has to be a team willing to trade but with our needs we should be able to negotiate enough to better the team. A trade does not have to be RG3 type to be beneficial for both teams.
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Old 12-18-2013   #84
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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I think it should be remembered that Texans desperately needing a LT were willing to gamble and trade down with risk of still getting a OT a few years ago. I remember Kubiak saying that he had left the room & upon returning discovered the GM was considering another trade down & Kubiak insisted on pulling the deal for Brown. Yes, there has to be a team willing to trade but with our needs we should be able to negotiate enough to better the team. A trade does not have to be RG3 type to be beneficial for both teams.
You need to discuss that with Texian. He has it on reliable speculation that Gibbs had full control on that pick in his contract.
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Old 12-18-2013   #85
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Yes, there has to be a team willing to trade but with our needs we should be able to negotiate enough to better the team. A trade does not have to be RG3 type to be beneficial for both teams.
Agreed. We don't have to steal three 1st round picks off a team for the trade to be successful. If we don't like anybody at #1, we could trade back to #6 or so and take the #38 this year and a 2nd next year. People will look at the draft value chart and say we cheated ourselves, but the value of the pick is all about the talent available in the draft. Trading back 5 spots (from a spot you already don't want to be in) and grabbing an extra 2nd this year and a 2nd next year is a huge win for me. I could care less what the "value" chart says about it.
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Old 12-18-2013   #86
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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You need to discuss that with Texian. He has it on reliable speculation that Gibbs had full control on that pick in his contract.
That's a fact Cak! It was Gibbs decision to draft Brown. Haven't you heard the Texans FO has been complaining and bellyaching to NFLN that the coaches have had to much say in the draft?
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Old 12-18-2013   #87
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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If I truly think Bortles is a franchise guy then I take him #1. Why would you trade picks this year and your 1st next year for a guy that you could just take #1?

I still don't understand that scenario and you've laid it out many times before. You can use your 1st this year on a QB or you can use your 2nd this year and 1st next year on a QB. Why would you choose the 2nd option?
Because BoB wants to win now.

By doing a trade like this you have the abilty to fill the 2 hardest positions there are to fill on a team in one draft. QB/Pass Rusher. If you hit on those picks and add in Watt you become a dominant team for the next decade and overtake Indy/Luck at the top of the division. Rick has to take chances to catch up with Luck/Indy. With that said,

I wouldn't draft a QB this yr if it was me. I would wait until the loaded 2015 QB draft. The way I see it Rick has these options

1. The option stated above
2 trade down, best option if a trade partner can be found.
3. Sign a vet QB like Campbell to compete with Keenum and draft a QB in 2015. The best option, IMHO
4. Reach for Bridgewater, the worst option. IMHO
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Old 12-18-2013   #88
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

If I'm not mistaken, but isnt Matthews one of the reasons Manziel has been getting his **** pushed inwards this year? I dont keep up with college OL 'grades', and I understand the kid is 1st team all american (popularity contest?) but the same was said about Joeckel (sp) about how he was a cant miss, and yada yada yada, but he hasnt been doing much in the pro's. i get the sentimental attachment to #74's son, but he is as much a 'lock' as anyone else. Linemen flop too, it isnt just relegated to QB's, and if the financial downfall isnt what it once was to take a gamble on a top pick then shoot for the stars.

Franchise QB's win games regardless of who's blocking up front. They make mediocre linemen look like all pro's.
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Old 12-18-2013   #89
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by DexmanC View Post
Tradayveon Clowney could be better than Mario Williams, who was a #1 overall selection; or, he could be Glenn Dorsey, who was drafted 5th overall and has 6 QB sacks in 6 seasons.

The draft is a crap shoot. I'd aim for a QB, because if it hits, your team will win year-in-and-year-out.
Agreed

If I thought Bridgewater was a franchise QB. If you miss on Bridgewater you set the franchise back for a decade. (5 yrs of Bridgewater and 3 to 5 yrs before the next QB you draft gets enough experience to be a possible SB winning QB in a best case scenerio, if you hit on the next QB.)

This pick is going to set the tone for the next decade. Are the Texans going to rebuild with substance, or are they going to build their team on fluff and PR like they did with Carr? This is where Rick earns his $$$$. (I have little faith in teflon Rick Smith being able to do a good job. Much less a great job, which is what it will take if the Texans want to become a Steelers/Pats type franchise)

Slick Rick knows how to play the game though. (Godfather to BoB's grandson kept his job despite his poor past performance) Good job Rick
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Old 12-18-2013   #90
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by Uncle Rico View Post
If I'm not mistaken, but isnt Matthews one of the reasons Manziel has been getting his **** pushed inwards this year? I dont keep up with college OL 'grades', and I understand the kid is 1st team all american (popularity contest?) but the same was said about Joeckel (sp) about how he was a cant miss, and yada yada yada, but he hasnt been doing much in the pro's. i get the sentimental attachment to #74's son, but he is as much a 'lock' as anyone else. Linemen flop too, it isnt just relegated to QB's, and if the financial downfall isnt what it once was to take a gamble on a top pick then shoot for the stars.

Franchise QB's win games regardless of who's blocking up front. They make mediocre linemen look like all pro's.
Tons of fail in this post.

Matthews hasn't been a problem this year. I watched some tape on him from www.draftbreakdown.com and he did well. You can spend a few hours watching his tape and come to the same conclusion. He hasn't been a problem, but there is definitely an argument worth having on whether or not he is a #1 overall.

Joeckel got hurt this year in October, he's out for the season.

Last edited by TexansSeminole; 12-18-2013 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 12-18-2013   #91
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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I'm not saying RT isn't an important position, more that it's not worth a number 1 pick, or really a top 20 pick. If you guys want to spend a late 1st on it, I could go for that. But if we're talking about Matthews, then we are talking a top 5 pick at this point, and I think it's a waste to spend that kind of a pick on a guy who will be the de facto RT.

There's no question this organization has tried to address the RT position on the cheap. Derek Newton was a 7th round pick, Brenan Williams was a late 3rd with injury history, David Quessenberry (who may not be a OT in the NFL) was a 6th, Ryan Harris was a street FA that had a bad injury history, Rashad Butler was a late 3rd round pick FA that was OK, but not great.

But let's not get caught up in the fact that Smithiak couldn't fix the position, other teams address it without spending 1st round picks on it, and that's why I'm saying we should be able to do the same.

The Patriots current RT Marcus Cannon was a 5th round pick.
The Lions are tied this year for the least amount of sacks given up with 16 total, and their RT this year is UDFA LaAdrian Waddle from Texas Tech.
Up until last year, 4th round pick Jermon Bushrod was starting for the Saints. This week the Saints are starting rookie 2nd round pick Teron Armistead at LT, so we'll see how he does in action. Their current RT is 7th round pick Zach Strief.
The Bears have given up the 3rd least sacks this year, and they are starting rookie 5th round pick Jordan Mills at RT. Can you believe that? A team with Jay Cutler at QB is giving up the 3rd least sacks in the league. Crazy...

Other teams address RT on the cheap through Free Agency. The Colts got Gosder Cherilus, the Rams got Jake Long, the Ravens picked up Bryant McKinnie (2 years 7m) for their Super Bowl run last year. It's really not that uncommon, and teams do have success with it.

I could go on, but my point is that RT really shouldn't require a 1st round pick to be a competent player. If we can't do that with our 3-1 pick or later, then we need a new GM. If Duane Brown was in the last year of his deal, I would be much more open to the idea, but he's not. He's here for the next few years, so we don't need a LT in waiting.
Pointing out more of Rick's failures. There are several OT's that should be massive upgrades at 3-1. (My favorite Moses, James, BB's favorite, Mewhort etc...)

And yes, the Texans do need a new GM.
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Old 12-18-2013   #92
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Rico View Post
If I'm not mistaken, but isnt Matthews one of the reasons Manziel has been getting his **** pushed inwards this year? I dont keep up with college OL 'grades', and I understand the kid is 1st team all american (popularity contest?) but the same was said about Joeckel (sp) about how he was a cant miss, and yada yada yada, but he hasnt been doing much in the pro's. i get the sentimental attachment to #74's son, but he is as much a 'lock' as anyone else. Linemen flop too, it isnt just relegated to QB's, and if the financial downfall isnt what it once was to take a gamble on a top pick then shoot for the stars.

Franchise QB's win games regardless of who's blocking up front. They make mediocre linemen look like all pro's.
"12/7/13: "Matthews had a superb senior season. His pass protection for Johnny Manziel was rock steady. Manziel didn't make it easy with the way he holds onto the ball for long periods of time and scrambles into defenders. Matthews was a quality run blocker, but he isn't overwhelming in the ground game. He doesn't play with a mean streak, and the same thing was said about Luke Joeckel last year. Matthews has proven to be a franchise left tackle for the NFL. "

http://walterfootball.com/draft2014OT.php
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Old 12-18-2013   #93
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Yep and there isn't a franchise QB available in this draft. IMHO So do you want to force the QB pick and set this franchise back another decade like Casserly did with Carr?

2015 is when the franchise QB's are coming out. The Texans should be doing everything they can to position themselves to get one at that time. Of course BoB/Rick cant see that far ahead.
No, I do not want another Carr situation. If the FO believes that there is not a franchise QB in the draft I would attempt to obtain one in FA but pickings are really slim. This QB class is pretty deep and I personally believe that at least one of them will be a franchise QB. You got Bridgewater, Bortles, and Hundley if they declare. McCarron, Boyd, and Manziel will also be available as well as several others. It is not a given that Winston will come out next year either, example Luck. The thing is that the organization will have to scout the hell out of all of them and pick the right one. Drafting a QB is always risky but is worth the risk due to the importance of the position. I'm not saying that we have to pick a QB with our first pick but we have to draft one in the first 3 rounds IMO. Hopefully we find one that we think is capable of leading this team and we are right.
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Old 12-18-2013   #94
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

At this point in time we're just pissin' in the wind. And a trade with the Browns may indeed be unrealistic, but it does show the possibilities. I get the impression that a lot of you don't fully grasp the value inherent in a 1-1.

Because of their extra picks, the Browns would essentially be giving up only a second to get the 1-1.

The Browns would end up with 1-1, 3-5 and all later picks.

The Texans would have, through round 3, 1-5, 1-24, 2-1, 2-5 and 3-1. They would give up 3,000 points in exchange for 2,970 points.

For those of you so adamant on taking a QB in the 1st, you have pick 1-24; and for those wanting to go in another direction than QB, at 1-5 you have a chance at Barr, Mathews or someone else.

Of course you have to have the willing trade partner, but put me down with the group that believes there is just to much value to be gained by trading down to pass this scenario up.
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Old 12-18-2013   #95
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Can you? Certainly. But the odds are not in your favor.




Passing on Bridgewater in the 1st to take Mettenberger/McCarron/etc in the 2nd is just as much a gamble as just drafting Bridgewater.

Matthews seems to be the key here. Many people would like Matthews + another QB than Bridgewater + another OT. I don't see much difference between Matthews and the other OT's available.
I dont see much any or think Bridgewater is as good potentially as Mettenberger/Bortles they have better arms, or Manziel same mobility/arm strength as Bridgewater. Manziel has just as good a chance to be an all pro as Bridgewater.

BTW, I want Clowney or Barr 1-1.
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Old 12-18-2013   #96
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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I would be OK with

Rd.1 Clowney/Barr
Rd.2 Bortles/Manziel/Mettenberger
Rd.3 Morgan Moses/James/Mewhort

That's value picks.
I would love that but I think that Bortles will be gone in the first. Manziel would be a great value pick in the 2nd.
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Old 12-18-2013   #97
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Pointing out more of Rick's failures. There are several OT's that should be massive upgrades at 3-1. (My favorite Moses, James, BB's favorite, Mewhort etc...)

And yes, the Texans do need a new GM.
I am concerned about Mewhorts' athleticism. I see him more of a OG than RT and in a non ZBS offense.

Moses is an intriguing prospect who averaged 8 knockdowns per game IIRC but is a weight concern despite his ability to kick to side. He would have better prospects if Texans go to different offense. He could be a Brooks type player but is not a starter first season.
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Old 12-18-2013   #98
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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I would love that but I think that Bortles will be gone in the first. Manziel would be a great value pick in the 2nd.
You could probably trade up to 22-25 and get one using a 2-1 and a 2015 2nd rd pick. Kinda like the trade for Schaub.

I really hope they trade up for Mettenberger, he will probably fall to 18-25 due to the ACL thing.
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Old 12-18-2013   #99
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by Number19 View Post
At this point in time we're just pissin' in the wind. And a trade with the Browns may indeed be unrealistic, but it does show the possibilities. I get the impression that a lot of you don't fully grasp the value inherent in a 1-1.

Because of their extra picks, the Browns would essentially be giving up only a second to get the 1-1.

The Browns would end up with 1-1, 3-5 and all later picks.

The Texans would have, through round 3, 1-5, 1-24, 2-1, 2-5 and 3-1. They would give up 3,000 points in exchange for 2,970 points.

For those of you so adamant on taking a QB in the 1st, you have pick 1-24; and for those wanting to go in another direction than QB, at 1-5 you have a chance at Barr, Mathews or someone else.

Of course you have to have the willing trade partner, but put me down with the group that believes there is just to much value to be gained by trading down to pass this scenario up.
I disagree on your contention that Browns would be losing only their second rounder "essentially". They have a second first round that they can use if no trade so you cannot just disregard that. I would accept your trade but to be honest would probably prefer their two thirds than their second but want to research a bit.
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Old 12-18-2013   #100
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Default Re: Jake Matthews now #1

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
I am concerned about Mewhorts' athleticism. I see him more of a OG than RT and in a non ZBS offense.

Moses is an intriguing prospect who averaged 8 knockdowns per game IIRC but is a weight concern despite his ability to kick to side. He would have better prospects if Texans go to different offense. He could be a Brooks type player but is not a starter first season.
Moses has played LT/RT/RG in his career. I've watched him many times and he's comparable to James. The reason I've got him rated higher than James is his versatility.

I can see where you're coming from comparing him to Brooks. Both are huge tough guys who move well. Difference is Moses has performed very well against ACC comp and is in shape, although huge.
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