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Old 12-15-2013   #101
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
We've been saying this for about a decade and counting. They haven't fixed the OL/DL and this is a big reason why the team is on a 2-14 course again. Lets see if history repeats itself and Rick decides to go with style (Bridgewater) before substance. (Clowney/Matthews)

Thanks Rick.
Quote:
I dont want to win games. I want to win SB's and an all pro O/DLL seems to be a common theme for teams that compete for SB's

New England/Baltimore/SF/N.O./Sea when healthy etc.....

VS team that dont value OL, Houston/ATL/Mia/Ariz etc....
The past 10 SB winners:

1 pro bowler
0
1 PB
2 PB
0
0
2 PB
2 PB, 1 AP
0
0

2012 Texans - 3 PB, 1 AP

The facts do not bear out your ongoing narrative.
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Old 12-15-2013   #102
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

I'll bet that RG3 comes back next season and plays great. Nothing wrong his skill set at all. He could use a better coach, a healthy body, and a long off season of preparation. This thread will get bumped a year from now. I think it's crazy to write him off just because of one bad season in only his 2nd year where he played hurt and had no pre season to prepare.
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Old 12-15-2013   #103
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Matthews will be an above avg LT/RT. He more likely could become a HOF OG, just like his dad. His dad could play any position on the OL and did through out his career. But Bruce was a HOF OG.
You've come to this conclusion because of who his dad is? Which is exactly my point. He is being over rated exactly because of that.
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Old 12-15-2013   #104
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
I'll bet that RG3 comes back next season and plays great. Nothing wrong his skill set at all. He could use a better coach, a healthy body, and a long off season of preparation. This thread will get bumped a year from now. I think it's crazy to write him off just because of one bad season in only his 2nd year where he played hurt and had no pre season to prepare.
I do not think his rookie season was a fluke. The second year is tough on a lot of QBs when teams have a season of film to study. Add in a serious injury, and it should not be a surprise that he's struggling. But, I think he could come back in year 3 and show the league why he was a no. 1 pick.

That being said, I would not give up a no. 1 overall pick for him this year. The Texans would be getting a shorter contract on a player that still struggled this year regardless of his potential. Not worth it, IMO.

After seeing that garbage today and the on-going spewage of horrible football since early September, I think they do the historical trend and draft a QB. Makes sense with a new HC coming in. This team needs an overhaul.
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Old 12-15-2013   #105
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
The past 10 SB winners:

1 pro bowler
0
1 PB
2 PB
0
0
2 PB
2 PB, 1 AP
0
0

2012 Texans - 3 PB, 1 AP

The facts do not bear out your ongoing narrative.
Last yrs Baltimore team

McKinney 1st Rd, Osemele high 2nd rd Birk Former All Pro player, Yanda 3rd rd, Oher 1st Rd.

San Francisco

Staley 1st rd pick, Iupati 1st Rd Goodwin FA pick up, Boone Was scheduled to be a 1-2nd rd pick before his alcoholism issues. 6th Rd pick. Davis 1st rd pick

I would say these 2 teams invested very heavily in their OL's.

I find it interesting that McKinney came in fat so Ozzie traded him in the middle of the season and gave up a 5th/6th rd in this yrs draft to replace McKinney. This shows the value Ozzie places in the OL.

San Fran invested 3 1sts and took a chance on Boone, a player Rick didn't/would never invest in. Meanwhile Boone turns into an all pro caliber OG. So yeah, San Fran certainly is heavily invested in their OL.

But carry on and continue to flood us with stats, when you already know what I stated above. Sometimes I think you love to argue for the sake of arguing.
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Old 12-15-2013   #106
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
You've come to this conclusion because of who his dad is? Which is exactly my point. He is being over rated exactly because of that.
Nope, I came to that conclusion after watching the LSU DE's run the arch against him.
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Old 12-15-2013   #107
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
I'll bet that RG3 comes back next season and plays great. Nothing wrong his skill set at all. He could use a better coach, a healthy body, and a long off season of preparation. This thread will get bumped a year from now. I think it's crazy to write him off just because of one bad season in only his 2nd year where he played hurt and had no pre season to prepare.
I wouldn't bet on it after seeing C-N-D's post.
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Old 12-15-2013   #108
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Last yrs Baltimore team

McKinney 1st Rd, Osemele high 2nd rd Birk Former All Pro player, Yanda 3rd rd, Oher 1st Rd.

San Francisco
You said all pro OL. I gave you benefit of the doubt and included pro bowl.

You're the one playing games.
McKinnie - 1st round quasi-bust brought in as an aged vet. Hardly a serious investment. Didn't start a game last season - the SB one.
Birk - never an All Pro. Another aged vet, this one formerly a very good C but well past those days.
Oher - yes investment of a 1st akin to the Texans much more successful investment in Brown.

The Texans have invested as much in the OL as Baltimore.

San Francisco has invested more. Of course that was by the GM and HC they found to be unsatisfactory and fired rather than the GM and HC who have them SB contenders.

Quote:
But carry on and continue to flood us with stats, when you already know what I stated above. Sometimes I think you love to argue for the sake of arguing.
Pssst, the round a player is in and whether they were in the pro bowl/all pro (which you brought up as the standard) are both facts/stats so spare me the lame "stats" as a derogatory argument. Putting aside the departed GM and HC, the best example you have for your argument is San Fran and none of their guys were picked top 10 - they were 11, 17 and 28. They don't support the Texans burning 1.1 on OL to match their investment. I am not arguing with you just to argue. I disagree with spending a top 10 pick on the OL because I do not believe it will upgrade as much as other positions which will also be available. If you were arguing for moving back up into the bottom of the 1st if necessary to get a RT I would be right there with you.
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Old 12-15-2013   #109
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
You said all pro OL. I gave you benefit of the doubt and included pro bowl.

You're the one playing games.
McKinnie - 1st round quasi-bust brought in as an aged vet. Hardly a serious investment. Didn't start a game last season - the SB one.
Birk - never an All Pro. Another aged vet, this one formerly a very good C but well past those days.
Oher - yes investment of a 1st akin to the Texans much more successful investment in Brown.

The Texans have invested as much in the OL as Baltimore.

San Francisco has invested more. Of course that was by the GM and HC they found to be unsatisfactory and fired rather than the GM and HC who have them SB contenders.



Pssst, the round a player is in and whether they were in the pro bowl/all pro (which you brought up as the standard) are both facts/stats so spare me the lame "stats" as a derogatory argument. Putting aside the departed GM and HC, the best example you have for your argument is San Fran and none of their guys were picked top 10 - they were 11, 17 and 28. They don't support the Texans burning 1.1 on OL to match their investment. I am not arguing with you just to argue. I disagree with spending a top 10 pick on the OL because I do not believe it will upgrade as much as other positions which will also be available. If you were arguing for moving back up into the bottom of the 1st if necessary to get a RT I would be right there with you.
Birk was an aging but smart leader of the Ravens OL. 6 time pro bowler.

McKinnie made the Pro Bowl in 2010 I think and although out of shape upgraded the Dolphins OL. He was traded to the Dolphins (Out of shape again) where their OL has gotten much better despite losing Martin and Incognito they are still in the running for a wildcard spot. I'm not saying McKinnie is a decent human being, but sometimes you have to dance with the devil if you want to win.

I agree with you about not taking an OL 1-1 especially in this draft. I would take Matthews in the 5-10 range after trading down.

I know you were a big MW guy. I think Clowney is an even better player. What do you think about Clowney 1-1. No to Bridgewater, IMHO
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Old 12-15-2013   #110
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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I know you were a big MW guy. I think Clowney is an even better player. What do you think about Clowney 1-1. No to Bridgewater, IMHO
Well, on MW to illustrate - I figured the Texans had taken QB off the table and so pretty much thought discussing VY was a waste of time. Bush I didn't think would translate to the NFL as a primary RB. That left Mario and Ferguson. Mario seemed like more of a freak with a higher upside.

Here Clowney shows the same kind of upside with a more extreme chance of bust due to taking plays off turning into taking a season off. Then there is injury concern. Haven't had a chance to talk to Doc about it but doing a little research bone spurs in feet can result from problems like plantar fasciitis and can be a real problem for a DLmen/OLB who lives off of initial burst. Basically he scares me.

If forced to stay I would be happy with either Bridgewater then the best of RT, OLB or NT ... or Barr then maneuver to get Bortles, Carr (after an interrogation that would make the CIA at Guantanamo proud).

Best case, trade down get Nix, Matthews or Moseley and then use the next two on a QB and RT (or OLB, NT if Matthews taken) in either order.
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Old 12-16-2013   #111
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Well, on MW to illustrate - I figured the Texans had taken QB off the table and so pretty much thought discussing VY was a waste of time. Bush I didn't think would translate to the NFL as a primary RB. That left Mario and Ferguson. Mario seemed like more of a freak with a higher upside.

Here Clowney shows the same kind of upside with a more extreme chance of bust due to taking plays off turning into taking a season off. Then there is injury concern. Haven't had a chance to talk to Doc about it but doing a little research bone spurs in feet can result from problems like plantar fasciitis and can be a real problem for a DLmen/OLB who lives off of initial burst. Basically he scares me.

If forced to stay I would be happy with either Bridgewater then the best of RT, OLB or NT ... or Barr then maneuver to get Bortles, Carr (after an interrogation that would make the CIA at Guantanamo proud).

Best case, trade down get Nix, Matthews or Moseley and then use the next two on a QB and RT (or OLB, NT if Matthews taken) in either order.
Clowney only took plays off this and that was to avoid an injury situation like his former teammmate. They were saying the same things about Peppers before he was drafted. IIRC, I'm more of a risk taker so if Doc said Clowney was medically OK he would be my pick.

Your best case scenerio would be my dream come true. I'm very high on Nix and think he could do for the Texans almost as much as Clowney. (Draw double teams) Nix having knee surgery does worry me and would be another call for the Doc's.
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Old 12-16-2013   #112
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

Who our coach (and possibly GM) is will be a big part of what we do.

There's still a long way to go and a lot of process to follow.
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Old 12-16-2013   #113
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

I would not trade the top pick for RGIII. I think he is over rated as are some of the other Read/Option QB's...
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Old 12-16-2013   #114
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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No. A thousand times NO.

Our offensive line needs fixing before any frigging QB no matter who the **** it is. I want to see the O line fixed in the off season. Then lets talk QB.
Thank you, Master Thorn (and the rest of you who follow this logic train).

Didn't we learn ANYTHING from the David Carr debacle?

It's real simple folks:

Promising young QB + crappy O-line = DISASTER

Oh and lest we forget a not-so-minor detail, anyone have any clue as to what the heck will our offensive scheme be??
...or who's calling the plays? Shouldn't that play into who we go out and get at QB? I'd like to know who the new OC/HC will be and what system he/they intend to run before I shop for a QB.

Oh and I'll pass on RGIII. Put me into the group that wants to parley that overall #1 pick into more picks. We got lots of holes to fill.
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Old 12-16-2013   #115
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Clowney only took plays off this and that was to avoid an injury situation like his former teammmate. They were saying the same things about Peppers before he was drafted. IIRC, I'm more of a risk taker so if Doc said Clowney was medically OK he would be my pick.

Your best case scenerio would be my dream come true. I'm very high on Nix and think he could do for the Texans almost as much as Clowney. (Draw double teams) Nix having knee surgery does worry me and would be another call for the Doc's.
How in the world do you dismiss all of the stuff about Clowney? Look at the history of players that have that criticism in the draft and almost all of them are busts or average players compared to their draft status. Watching Mario all of those years should be an easy one for you. And it's not just the taking plays off thing. It's the attitude that his coaches have put out there and the stupid decisions by this guy like driving 110 down the highway. I can guarantee you that the Texans don't touch him though. Way to many red flags for Bob Mcnair to even consider him at this point, and good for Bob. Clowney is nothing but a media sensation that quickly had his candles blown out by mid season after he looked average all year. Using an injury as an excuse when he had such a spotlight on him for a high draft pick and even a Heisman pick is one of the worst spin efforts I've ever seen by a player's camp. Clowney cost himself a lot of money most likely. I'm just happy to know that the Texans won't be anywhere near this guy on their draft board unless he is somehow sticking around in the 2nd round.
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Old 12-16-2013   #116
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Thank you, Master Thorn (and the rest of you who follow this logic train).

Didn't we learn ANYTHING from the David Carr debacle?

It's real simple folks:

Promising young QB + crappy O-line = DISASTER

Oh and lest we forget a not-so-minor detail, anyone have any clue as to what the heck will our offensive scheme be??
...or who's calling the plays? Shouldn't that play into who we go out and get at QB? I'd like to know who the new OC/HC will be and what system he/they intend to run before I shop for a QB.

Oh and I'll pass on RGIII. Put me into the group that wants to parley that overall #1 pick into more picks. We got lots of holes to fill.

A lot of Carr's sacks are on Carr. He held the ball too long. Great QBs make their O lines look good. I don't know that Brady has had any pro bowlers blocking for him, but they never have more than 5 guys blocking because he gets the ball out fast.

It's actually one of the reasons I think Luck will be an average QB. He doesn't make quick reads and he doesn't get the ball out fast enough (and he's not that accurate) Manning in comparison has had less than 25 sacks his entire career and his accuracy was always above 60% (except his first year). Luck has had 30+ sacks both years and is below 60% both years
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Old 12-16-2013   #117
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Well, on MW to illustrate - I figured the Texans had taken QB off the table and so pretty much thought discussing VY was a waste of time. Bush I didn't think would translate to the NFL as a primary RB. That left Mario and Ferguson. Mario seemed like more of a freak with a higher upside.

Here Clowney shows the same kind of upside with a more extreme chance of bust due to taking plays off turning into taking a season off. Then there is injury concern. Haven't had a chance to talk to Doc about it but doing a little research bone spurs in feet can result from problems like plantar fasciitis and can be a real problem for a DLmen/OLB who lives off of initial burst. Basically he scares me.

If forced to stay I would be happy with either Bridgewater then the best of RT, OLB or NT ... or Barr then maneuver to get Bortles, Carr (after an interrogation that would make the CIA at Guantanamo proud).

Best case, trade down get Nix, Matthews or Moseley and then use the next two on a QB and RT (or OLB, NT if Matthews taken) in either order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Clowney only took plays off this and that was to avoid an injury situation like his former teammmate. They were saying the same things about Peppers before he was drafted. IIRC, I'm more of a risk taker so if Doc said Clowney was medically OK he would be my pick.

Your best case scenerio would be my dream come true. I'm very high on Nix and think he could do for the Texans almost as much as Clowney. (Draw double teams) Nix having knee surgery does worry me and would be another call for the Doc's.
Clowney has been dealing with the bone spur(s) of his foot since highschool. He also missed time for this problem last season and this season, he has played lame. We don't know if it is a single spur or multiple spurs....if it is a heel spur or ankle spur. If it is an isolated spur, surgery may cure him. If multiple spurs, as chronic as it has been, it could very well be a reflection of significant arthritic changes. Unfortunately, like usual, we have little information to work with. One thing I can pretty well tell you is that if he has surgery after the season, he won't be at the Combine, and teams will likely have to make a decision on what they've seen so far. He should be ready to go for the 2014 season no matter was his pathology is. His performance will be dictated by the extent of the pathology that required attention. I don't like the fact that this has been a chronic problem already.......in a very young player.........a pass rusher that needs no compromise of any type with his ability to push off.

As far as Nix, no mention was made of which meniscus/menisci were torn. But, if accurate, some reports reveal that the surgery involved "repair" not "excision." Repair is a harder longer recovery. What bothers me the most about Nix is that he has been dealing with a chronic case of patellar tendonitis.......the predecessor of patellar tendon rupture, ala our own Cushing and Newton. Being a big man, the condition and potential of rupture is more concerning. If he does eventually rupture, expect a long recovery closer to Newton (who was rushed back and not given enough time to completely rehab)........and we know how that's turned out.

Both great players with great potential................for stellar careers.........or ongoing injury history...........only time will tell, and someone will take the chance for sure.
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Old 12-16-2013   #118
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Clowney has been dealing with the bone spur(s) of his foot since highschool. He also missed time for this problem last season and this season, he has played lame. We don't know if it is a single spur or multiple spurs....if it is a heel spur or ankle spur. If it is an isolated spur, surgery may cure him. If multiple spurs, as chronic as it has been, it could very well be a reflection of significant arthritic changes. Unfortunately, like usual, we have little information to work with. One thing I can pretty well tell you is that if he has surgery after the season, he won't be at the Combine, and teams will likely have to make a decision on what they've seen so far. He should be ready to go for the 2014 season no matter was his pathology is. His performance will be dictated by the extent of the pathology that required attention. I don't like the fact that this has been a chronic problem already.......in a very young player.........a pass rusher that needs no compromise of any type with his ability to push off.

As far as Nix, no mention was made of which meniscus/menisci were torn. But, if accurate, some reports reveal that the surgery involved "repair" not "excision." Repair is a harder longer recovery. What bothers me the most about Nix is that he has been dealing with a chronic case of patellar tendonitis.......the predecessor of patellar tendon rupture, ala our own Cushing and Newton. Being a big man, the condition and potential of rupture is more concerning. If he does eventually rupture, expect a long recovery closer to Newton (who was rushed back and not given enough time to completely rehab)........and we know how that's turned out.

Both great players with great potential................for stellar careers.........or ongoing injury history...........only time will tell, and someone will take the chance for sure.
This is reason I pulled Nix off my board when he missed games at end of season.
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Old 12-16-2013   #119
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
How in the world do you dismiss all of the stuff about Clowney? Look at the history of players that have that criticism in the draft and almost all of them are busts or average players compared to their draft status. Watching Mario all of those years should be an easy one for you. And it's not just the taking plays off thing. It's the attitude that his coaches have put out there and the stupid decisions by this guy like driving 110 down the highway. I can guarantee you that the Texans don't touch him though. Way to many red flags for Bob Mcnair to even consider him at this point, and good for Bob. Clowney is nothing but a media sensation that quickly had his candles blown out by mid season after he looked average all year. Using an injury as an excuse when he had such a spotlight on him for a high draft pick and even a Heisman pick is one of the worst spin efforts I've ever seen by a player's camp. Clowney cost himself a lot of money most likely. I'm just happy to know that the Texans won't be anywhere near this guy on their draft board unless he is somehow sticking around in the 2nd round.
I dont blame Clowney for taking it easy this yr after seeing in person Lattimore get his knee blown up and Lattimore going from a top 20 pick to a 6th rd pick. (It's human nature) Clowney was a dominate pass rusher his first 2 yrs at South Carolina. Getting Sacks in the SEC and constantly drawing double/triple teams against some of the best OL's in college football. How many NC's has the SEC won in a row?

After reading CND's post below I'm starting to back off Clowney a bit. If he checks out medically this season wouldn't preclude me from taking Clowney. He's a once in a generation type player.

The difference between MW and Clowney is, until this yr Clowney never took plays off. He was the #1 recruit coming out of high school. Clowney was a targerted man from day 1 of his college career.

Mario on the otherhand wasn't highly recruited played on a DL with three 1st rd draft picks. He was known for taking plays off at N.C.St. Mario wasn't even on the radar for pick 1-1 until he blew up at the combine.

Can you see why I think there's a difference between the 2 players and if healthy why Clowney would be worth the risk?
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Old 12-17-2013   #120
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Default Re: Would Your Trade the 1st Pick for Rg3?

NO....
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