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Old 12-06-2013   #1021
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
So, how did you or anyone come up with yates isn't starter material,yet wanna see more of keenum? How can you or anyone determine this on the rose colored logic? Say what u will and missing andre for most of his starts, tj knew where to go with the ball. We never saw 20 yd retreat sacks either. Again, he walked in a hostile cincy with the playoffs on the line,with little time and won that game. Don't forget the atlanta game and the playoff win. Yet, we need to see what case have? Yeah,right.
I wanted Keenum to get a CHANCE to show what he could do. My opinion after 3-4 games was that if he continued like that (see Nick Foles) then you go into next season with him at starter and get some vet, mid round draft pick for competition. He hasn't continued so I'm on the draft a QB with a high pick bandwagon.

As for Yates...he hasn't done anything that makes you think he'd be more than a game managing back up. He, like Keenum, had something that caused him to be drafted low. He would have to do something special to change people's minds. He didn't "win" any games. The defense was playing at Superbowl levels and Foster was playing really good - he just didn't mess up too bad. He scored no more than 20 ppg and had 3 TDs 3 INTs with 3 lost fumbles in the regular season. He had 159 yards and a TD in the playoff win vs the Bengals. I won't bring up the Ravens game stats. He looked no better than Keenum in this preseason. When he was given a chance this season (yeah he had no prep & came off the bench) he blew his chance. He is a a less talented QB than Schaub with more foot speed.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1022
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by HOU-TEX View Post
The dude [Keenum] hasn't progressed the past 6-7 games with a "quarterback guru" for a coach. How can anyone expect him to do better with Dennison and Dorel?
Except that all the adjectives that have described Kubiak as a "Quarterback Guru" and "Offensive Genius," are all based upon Gary's archaic, outmoded, backup quarterback mentality, so that honorifics of this sort no longer apply to him. At one time, yes! In 2013 the game has passed him by; consequently, Gary's myopia has extended to Case Keenum, TJ Yates, and yes, even to Matt Schaub, and it has shown in their gameplay and predictability, all predicated on Kubiak's "teaching."

I am sincerely convinced that the regression of TJ Yates and now Case Keenum, is not wholly, but in part attributed to young men buying into old concepts. The talent of the man throwing the football is of course a major factor, but we've all seen two guys come in and light it up like gangbusters, only to regress the more they are inoculated into the system.

There is also no doubt that opposing teams having game film on Keenum has contributed to Case's regression; still, game film primarily identifies tendencies that can be exploited. But every QB that has ever played has tendencies - and even the best QBs fall prey to their shortcomings, either by means of human error or an opposing team/coach/player being that good at exposing you. Some tendencies can be corrected. Some cannot. Whatever the case, it's a process...and anyone who's ever done any self-work on themselves knows it doesn't happen overnight.

The tendencies of the player, however, does not dictate constant 7-step drops, coupled with long developing routes, with a blitz in your grill nearly ever 3rd down. These errors in coaching create artificial tendencies - yet tendencies, nonetheless - that retard growth and lose games.

Bless his heart, but Gary Kubiak was the perfect self-scratching itch.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1023
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

Yates didn't screw up that much, except when he did in the most crucial time----against Baltimore in the playoffs.

Ugh.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1024
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

I question Kubiak using his "quarterback guru" powers to their full potential on Keenum. If he had, he wouldn't have pulled case the second time. He may have put some effort into Keenum, but Kubiak is the type of guy that is a slave to familiarity and put in Schaub. Loyalty, familiarity, whatever you want to call it Keenum was always an after thought when possibly the higher ups wanted and told Kubiak to play Keenum over Schaub. You can see from today's press conference that McNair wants to see Keenum play.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1025
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

I wonder why Case is throwing 3 feet behind receivers on 5 yard plays. I don't think I've ever miss so many easy passes even watching him in college. I don't know if he's lost all confidence or what but last night he did not look good.

The guy can throw it accurately 20+ yards but can't throw it 5-10 yards. Weird...
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Old 12-06-2013   #1026
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Linca View Post
I wonder why Case is throwing 3 feet behind receivers on 5 yard plays. I don't think I've ever miss so many easy passes even watching him in college. I don't know if he's lost all confidence or what but last night he did not look good.

The guy can throw it accurately 20+ yards but can't throw it 5-10 yards. Weird...
Because he's throwing to a spot where he thinks the receivers will be, and they are not on the same page.

TK alluded to this on the other thread and I'm in complete agreement with it. If they take a QB high in the draft, Keenum will NOT be the starter next year, no matter how good Keenum will be in training camp, and no matter how bad the high priced rookie is. It will still be the high dollar draft pick vs. the undrafted free agent, and we all know how that cookie crumbles.

We're gonna have a Rivers/Brees situation, and in my view, Keenum will go to another team and shine, just like all the other players we let go.

I'm very pessimistic how this shakes out.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1027
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by EVOLVIST View Post
Except that all the adjectives that have described Kubiak as a "Quarterback Guru" and "Offensive Genius," are all based upon Gary's archaic, outmoded, backup quarterback mentality, so that honorifics of this sort no longer apply to him. At one time, yes! In 2013 the game has passed him by; consequently, Gary's myopia has extended to Case Keenum, TJ Yates, and yes, even to Matt Schaub, and it has shown in their gameplay and predictability, all predicated on Kubiak's "teaching."

I am sincerely convinced that the regression of TJ Yates and now Case Keenum, is not wholly, but in part attributed to young men buying into old concepts. The talent of the man throwing the football is of course a major factor, but we've all seen two guys come in and light it up like gangbusters, only to regress the more they are inoculated into the system.

There is also no doubt that opposing teams having game film on Keenum has contributed to Case's regression; still, game film primarily identifies tendencies that can be exploited. But every QB that has ever played has tendencies - and even the best QBs fall prey to their shortcomings, either by means of human error or an opposing team/coach/player being that good at exposing you. Some tendencies can be corrected. Some cannot. Whatever the case, it's a process...and anyone who's ever done any self-work on themselves knows it doesn't happen overnight.

The tendencies of the player, however, does not dictate constant 7-step drops, coupled with long developing routes, with a blitz in your grill nearly ever 3rd down. These errors in coaching create artificial tendencies - yet tendencies, nonetheless - that retard growth and lose games.

Bless his heart, but Gary Kubiak was the perfect self-scratching itch.
I hear ya & mostly agree with everything except a few points. Good qbs don't let you corner them into 1 tendency or another & it doesn't matter what defenses are trying to do to you....That's one thing that you see early on with good qbs. It might give the defense a better chance to win by taking away a big tendency that that qb has, but ultimately, that qb can make you pay another way....that isn't the case with Schaub...and/or now Keenum.
Case's tendencies have been born out of the things he does best (spread the defense out & throw it deep) & when those things were largely taken away from him he did not adjust well.

The HC & QB need their skills to mesh together on offense to hammer out something both are comfortable with. It's a pretty involved process & it's made easier when you've got a stud, but it's something that needs to happen. So i don't think it was so much about Gary's archaic mentality about offense or qb development as it is/was about Keenum's ability to meet him half way in developing a viable, sustainable offense. We can literally see kubiak's efforts to mesh the offense with Keenum's skill set through the pistol formation, the zone read, the qb keepers plays.......we never saw much, if any of that before Case.

That's why I got so tired of people in here blathering about how Kubiak wasn't letting "case be case" or claiming that Kubiak was trying to turn Case into Schaub..couldn't have been further from the truth imo. What Kubiak was trying to do when he had Case under center & running other "schaub-like" plays was trying to incorporate some "normal" aspects of his offense that could help offset some of the things defenses were doing to Case. He knew you couldn't sustain an NFL offense doing only the things Keenum feels most comfortable. It probably wasn't enough TBH...At some point you've got to settle into something much more comprehensive & viable...

Last night showed this perfectly. The offense looked stagnant with Keenum most of the night, but Schaub comes in & we're moving the ball up & down the field like it's nothing. But b/c all people heard was Mayock saying "uptempo" they automatically think "oh why doesn't he do that with keenum, he did it so well at UH" Well, if keenum wasn't good at running the plays in the uptempo package, then it doesn't matter if it's uptempo or not..
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Old 12-06-2013   #1028
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
I hear ya & mostly agree with everything except a few points. Good qbs don't let you corner them into 1 tendency or another & it doesn't matter what defenses are trying to do to you....That's one thing that you see early on with good qbs. It might give the defense a better chance to win by taking away a big tendency that that qb has, but ultimately, that qb can make you pay another way....that isn't the case with Schaub...and/or now Keenum.
Case's tendencies have been born out of the things he does best (spread the defense out & throw it deep) & when those things were largely taken away from him he did not adjust well.

The HC & QB need their skills to mesh together on offense to hammer out something both are comfortable with. It's a pretty involved process & it's made easier when you've got a stud, but it's something that needs to happen. So i don't think it was so much about Gary's archaic mentality about offense or qb development as it is/was about Keenum's ability to meet him half way in developing a viable, sustainable offense. We can literally see kubiak's efforts to mesh the offense with Keenum's skill set through the pistol formation, the zone read, the qb keepers plays.......we never saw much, if any of that before Case.

That's why I got so tired of people in here blathering about how Kubiak wasn't letting "case be case" or claiming that Kubiak was trying to turn Case into Schaub..couldn't have been further from the truth imo. What Kubiak was trying to do when he had Case under center & running other "schaub-like" plays was trying to incorporate some "normal" aspects of his offense that could help offset some of the things defenses were doing to Case. He knew you couldn't sustain an NFL offense doing only the things Keenum feels most comfortable. It probably wasn't enough TBH...At some point you've got to settle into something much more comprehensive & viable...

Last night showed this perfectly. The offense looked stagnant with Keenum most of the night, but Schaub comes in & we're moving the ball up & down the field like it's nothing. But b/c all people heard was Mayock saying "uptempo" they automatically think "oh why doesn't he do that with keenum, he did it so well at UH" Well, if keenum wasn't good at running the plays in the uptempo package, then it doesn't matter if it's uptempo or not..
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Old 12-06-2013   #1029
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Because he's throwing to a spot where he thinks the receivers will be, and they are not on the same page.

TK alluded to this on the other thread and I'm in complete agreement with it. If they take a QB high in the draft, Keenum will NOT be the starter next year, no matter how good Keenum will be in training camp, and no matter how bad the high priced rookie is. It will still be the high dollar draft pick vs. the undrafted free agent, and we all know how that cookie crumbles.

We're gonna have a Rivers/Brees situation, and in my view, Keenum will go to another team and shine, just like all the other players we let go.

I'm very pessimistic how this shakes out.
This could turn out to be true...

...however....let's just consider another possibility...

...perhaps there is a reason why Case is an UDFA that sat on the Texans practice squad for a entire season and no interest was ever shown in him by 31 other teams? Maybe we fans are missing something that professional coaches and scouts in the NFL see in evaluating him?

I'm just sayin', there could always be the other side, y'know?

And while I know it's become a situation of comparing Keenum to other vertically challenged QBs, we also have to consider those QBs showed enough to get drafted. Brees in the 2nd round and Wilson in the 3rd. Obviously, draft position is not the be all / end all, but certainly QBs are extensively scrutinized and analyzed by the NFL machine in today's day and age, more than any other position all things considered.

I'm not saying Keenum cannot or will not, but big picture here, a lot of our hopes and perceptions are not aligned with the reality.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1030
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
I hear ya & mostly agree with everything except a few points. Good qbs don't let you corner them into 1 tendency or another & it doesn't matter what defenses are trying to do to you....That's one thing that you see early on with good qbs. It might give the defense a better chance to win by taking away a big tendency that that qb has, but ultimately, that qb can make you pay another way....that isn't the case with Schaub...and/or now Keenum.
Case's tendencies have been born out of the things he does best (spread the defense out & throw it deep) & when those things were largely taken away from him he did not adjust well.

The HC & QB need their skills to mesh together on offense to hammer out something both are comfortable with. It's a pretty involved process & it's made easier when you've got a stud, but it's something that needs to happen. So i don't think it was so much about Gary's archaic mentality about offense or qb development as it is/was about Keenum's ability to meet him half way in developing a viable, sustainable offense. We can literally see kubiak's efforts to mesh the offense with Keenum's skill set through the pistol formation, the zone read, the qb keepers plays.......we never saw much, if any of that before Case.

That's why I got so tired of people in here blathering about how Kubiak wasn't letting "case be case" or claiming that Kubiak was trying to turn Case into Schaub..couldn't have been further from the truth imo. What Kubiak was trying to do when he had Case under center & running other "schaub-like" plays was trying to incorporate some "normal" aspects of his offense that could help offset some of the things defenses were doing to Case. He knew you couldn't sustain an NFL offense doing only the things Keenum feels most comfortable. It probably wasn't enough TBH...At some point you've got to settle into something much more comprehensive & viable...

Last night showed this perfectly. The offense looked stagnant with Keenum most of the night, but Schaub comes in & we're moving the ball up & down the field like it's nothing. But b/c all people heard was Mayock saying "uptempo" they automatically think "oh why doesn't he do that with keenum, he did it so well at UH" Well, if keenum wasn't good at running the plays in the uptempo package, then it doesn't matter if it's uptempo or not..
This x1000. Perfect response.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1031
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
I hear ya & mostly agree with everything except a few points. Good qbs don't let you corner them into 1 tendency or another & it doesn't matter what defenses are trying to do to you....That's one thing that you see early on with good qbs. It might give the defense a better chance to win by taking away a big tendency that that qb has, but ultimately, that qb can make you pay another way....that isn't the case with Schaub...and/or now Keenum.
Case's tendencies have been born out of the things he does best (spread the defense out & throw it deep) & when those things were largely taken away from him he did not adjust well.

The HC & QB need their skills to mesh together on offense to hammer out something both are comfortable with. It's a pretty involved process & it's made easier when you've got a stud, but it's something that needs to happen. So i don't think it was so much about Gary's archaic mentality about offense or qb development as it is/was about Keenum's ability to meet him half way in developing a viable, sustainable offense. We can literally see kubiak's efforts to mesh the offense with Keenum's skill set through the pistol formation, the zone read, the qb keepers plays.......we never saw much, if any of that before Case.

That's why I got so tired of people in here blathering about how Kubiak wasn't letting "case be case" or claiming that Kubiak was trying to turn Case into Schaub..couldn't have been further from the truth imo. What Kubiak was trying to do when he had Case under center & running other "schaub-like" plays was trying to incorporate some "normal" aspects of his offense that could help offset some of the things defenses were doing to Case. He knew you couldn't sustain an NFL offense doing only the things Keenum feels most comfortable. It probably wasn't enough TBH...At some point you've got to settle into something much more comprehensive & viable...

Last night showed this perfectly. The offense looked stagnant with Keenum most of the night, but Schaub comes in & we're moving the ball up & down the field like it's nothing. But b/c all people heard was Mayock saying "uptempo" they automatically think "oh why doesn't he do that with keenum, he did it so well at UH" Well, if keenum wasn't good at running the plays in the uptempo package, then it doesn't matter if it's uptempo or not..


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Old 12-06-2013   #1032
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
This could turn out to be true...

...however....let's just consider another possibility...

...perhaps there is a reason why Case is an UDFA that sat on the Texans practice squad for a entire season and no interest was ever shown in him by 31 other teams? Maybe we fans are missing something that professional coaches and scouts in the NFL see in evaluating him?

I'm just sayin', there could always be the other side, y'know?

And while I know it's become a situation of comparing Keenum to other vertically challenged QBs, we also have to consider those QBs showed enough to get drafted. Brees in the 2nd round and Wilson in the 3rd. Obviously, draft position is not the be all / end all, but certainly QBs are extensively scrutinized and analyzed by the NFL machine in today's day and age, more than any other position all things considered.

I'm not saying Keenum cannot or will not, but big picture here, a lot of our hopes and perceptions are not aligned with the reality.



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Old 12-06-2013   #1033
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

Some really good posts the last page or so. I am now off the Keenum bandwagon. Yes I am a UH alum and wanted so bad for the "local kid made good story", but winning is more important. I don't really like the thought that he needs a entire offseason with the #1's to see what he can really do. As we all know he was an UDFA on the practice squad that got transplanted to the started role within a couple weeks, bypassing the number 2 guy on the roster. This was a chance of a lifetime for him and a 6-7 game (I can't even keep track anymore) evaluation I think is plenty to see what the kid brings to the table. We've got nothing else so we might as well trot him out there for the final games, but he would have to completely set the league a blaze for the next 3 games for me to jump back on board.

I'm still all for bringing him in for competition and keeping him as the #2, but I don't see him as the game changer he was in college. I've got no answer as I m not a draftnik or one to keep up with college QB's so I am at the mercy of the new regime.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1034
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

I'm still willing to give him more time. He showed flashes early and played well versus NE. I think he will finish out better.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1035
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

Case has 3 more games. Let him participate in-think tanking the game plans, let him freely audible, and see what he can do. I see no downside.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1036
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Case has 3 more games. Let him participate in-think tanking the game plans, let him freely audible, and see what he can do. I see no downside.
Wade and Dennison aren't going to add a new chapter to the playbook. They'll adjust the mix.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1037
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Case has 3 more games. Let him participate in-think tanking the game plans, let him freely audible, and see what he can do. I see no downside.
People can hate on Case all they want. The decision is made. He's starting the next 3 games. I'm glad to hear it. I honestly don't think Kubiak was doing a great job with him. I've never seen a starting QB pulled the way Case was. He was not playing great, but he was not lost or throwing multiple INTs or losing the game for us like Schaub was earlier this year.

Jury is still out on him as it is most QBs their first year of playing except the truly horrible and the most gifted. I have seen truly horrible QBs play plenty in the NFL. Case is not one of them. He'll be on some rosters for the next 4-5 years. minimum he's a journeyman QB until he changes careers.

The difference between Keenum and Yates is that Keenum has shown flashes of brilliance and Yates never really did. There was never even the hope he was a future starter. While Keenum's stock is clearly down, it hasn't bottomed out.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1038
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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Originally Posted by tvaughan View Post
People can hate on Case all they want. The decision is made. He's starting the next 3 games. I'm glad to hear it. I honestly don't think Kubiak was doing a great job with him. I've never seen a starting QB pulled the way Case was. He was not playing great, but he was not lost or throwing multiple INTs or losing the game for us like Schaub was earlier this year.

Jury is still out on him as it is most QBs their first year of playing except the truly horrible and the most gifted. I have seen truly horrible QBs play plenty in the NFL. Case is not one of them. He'll be on some rosters for the next 4-5 years. minimum he's a journeyman QB until he changes careers.

The difference between Keenum and Yates is that Keenum has shown flashes of brilliance and Yates never really did. There was never even the hope he was a future starter. While Keenum's stock is clearly down, it hasn't bottomed out.

The reason you haven't seen a starter pulled like case is well because he wasn't really a NFL starter. Our starter and number 2 tanked
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Old 12-06-2013   #1039
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

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If u think or thought your 3rd string qb was the answer.....you probably dont have a qb to begin with....

Mr. Bridgewater let me be the first to welcome you to houston!
I don't agree with this.

Yes, there was a reason he was third, but if they had a decent starter (Schaub was), an experienced back up (Tj is), & an opportunity to get to the Super Bowl (we did) then being the third string isn't necessarily crap.

That said, watching Keenum between the 20s is like watching Schaub in the Red Zone. You know what's going to happen. I'm not going to go so far as to say I could call the plays, but I know more than likely the drive is going to end in a punt.

& we're winless. I'm not seeing Kaepernick or Wilson out there. I'm seeing Jake Locker. At this point we'd be foolish not to improve our QB position in the draft.

That said... I also think Kubiak was trying to get Keenum to run "his" system more than he was trying to win games. Case has got ability. They made it easy for Kaepernick & Wilson to adjust to the NFL, we haven't (imo) been doing that for Case.

If Case doesn't make a drastic change in the way he plays over the next 3 games, I'm all on board for drafting a QB in the first.
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Old 12-06-2013   #1040
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Default Re: All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

I think we need to wait and see what Keenum does without Kubiak. I don't particularly care for Dennison much though. For now I'm going to continue to root for Keenum to do well, but if he can't he can't. I'd rather draft Clowney than Bridgewater anyway.
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