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Old 11-19-2013   #141
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Since Keenum is going into his 5th game, we'll do 5 games. Guess the QB first and then guess which posters would have declared him not NFL caliber --

1st game: 13/23, 168 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 1 sack for 9 yds, QB rtg 79.6, 0 fumbles

2nd game: 12/24, 86 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 4 sacks for 17 yds, QB rtg 58.7, 2 fumbles lost

3rd game: 33/54, 364 yds, 2TD, 0INT, 3 sacks for 19 yds, QB rtg 93.4, 2 fumbles, 0 lost

4th game: 16/20, 202 yds, 3TD, 0INT, 0 sacks, QB rtg 148.3, 0 fumbles

5th game: 25/38, 203 yds, 2TD, 4INT, 2 sacks for 20 yds, QB rtg 57.1, 1 fumble, 0 lost




For anyone who misses the obvious point, 5 games in is still evaluation time. It takes the best QBs a while to figure it out.
Not enough INTs to be Peyton, no rushing yards mentioned, so probably not Young. No reception mentioned so it's not Favre. Not enough pass attempts to be Brees... I'll go with Brady.
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Old 11-19-2013   #142
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Honoring Earl 34 View Post
Brandon Brooks saved their ass on the 1st 4th down by false starting . The game would have ended with a dump off short of the goal .
That completed dump off was also short of the two yards needed for a first down. Amazing.
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Old 11-19-2013   #143
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
That is the assumption that freaked everyone out. First, you don't know that. Second, I don't think that is the case (no pun intended). As a fan, I agree with you that the season is now about looking to the future. However, I want my coach trying to win games, especially when we are still mathematically in a playoff race, which we certainly were on Sunday (that second wildcard team will probably only win 9, maybe even 8 games)

To me, Kubiak's worst gameday decision, was running Ben Tate on that 3rd and 1. Either DJ should have been in, we should've run an end around or something else exotic, or we should've handed the ball to an up back (Jones)... Tate's play has deteriorated after halftime each of the past two weeks, after he has cooled down during halftime, taken shots in the first half, etc... I understand wanting a RB that knows the plays and protections in the game, but you can't subject a guy with broken ribs to a short yardage situation with all the Bigs in the game, plus and extra LB. Just a stupid decision!
thats a coaching error dude.....just proves even more that gary has no in game feel
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Old 11-19-2013   #144
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
I didn't miss anything other than the play-calling and protection CHANGING. Case didn't have the same options Schaub had, it's as simple as that. It wasn't that he kept missing hot routes again-and-again, the play called didn't have the same routes as Schaub had.
Yes, that's what Kubiak said. He said he wanted to respond to the defense with different things and that it was not fair to ask keenum to manage those... Specificially, I don't know what those are. However, here is my best guess why you noticed what you did:

** The defense focused hard on preventing the rollout. Even in the first half, Keenum had to make two very athletic plays to escape the containment when he did get to the edge. Teams have focused on flooding the A gaps, either with blitzes or by blitzing the edge but crashing and stunting DL men into them. Most of Keenum's poor throws tend to be on short crosses, etc... Consider the low, weak pass to AJ on the cross on 3rd down in the 3rd quarter. I think it is a vision issue. Keenum, at least as the offense is currently designed and with the defense doing what is doing, can not execute anything out of three and five step drops other than go routes and flags on the edge of the defense. He can't see over all those bodies to hit the quick crossing route with all the interior pressure. So, when Schaub entered the game, those crosses and quick passes inside the hashmarks were available again and were likely a focus of the playcalling and play to Schaub's strengths at QB.

I'm sure there is much more complexity to it than that, but those are things I noticed and that make sense to me.

Realize also that Keenum's assets and limitations are significantly different than Schaub's. Given that this year's team and preparation was based off the assumption that Schaub would start and Tate would backup, their is a limitation to what can be done in the season to design things for Keenum. For instance, perhaps Keenum needs a 330 lb mauler at center... perhaps TEs being vertical threats so that he can attack the seams with them at 20 yards more regularly instead of relying on TEs with great hands to hook into a zone at 8 yards, which he may struggle to see... There are all kinds of adjustments that can be made in the off-season which would provide Keenum a greater opportunity to excel but simply aren't all feasible now.

Actually, it's exciting to think about it. Despite my affinity for Kubiak's program, the unknown is starting to look quite appealing.
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Old 11-19-2013   #145
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
That is the assumption that freaked everyone out. First, you don't know that. Second, I don't think that is the case (no pun intended). As a fan, I agree with you that the season is now about looking to the future. However, I want my coach trying to win games, especially when we are still mathematically in a playoff race, which we certainly were on Sunday (that second wildcard team will probably only win 9, maybe even 8 games)

To me, Kubiak's worst gameday decision, was running Ben Tate on that 3rd and 1. Either DJ should have been in, we should've run an end around or something else exotic, or we should've handed the ball to an up back (Jones)... Tate's play has deteriorated after halftime each of the past two weeks, after he has cooled down during halftime, taken shots in the first half, etc... I understand wanting a RB that knows the plays and protections in the game, but you can't subject a guy with broken ribs to a short yardage situation with all the Bigs in the game, plus and extra LB. Just a stupid decision!
DJ would've had less of a chance than Tate had on that play. Wade Smith was blasted into the backfield, completely wrecking the play.

An end around?? Maybe we should've tried running 22 veer, no? I mean, it's about as exotic as an end around
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Old 11-19-2013   #146
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Not enough INTs to be Peyton, no rushing yards mentioned, so probably not Young. No reception mentioned so it's not Favre. Not enough pass attempts to be Brees... I'll go with Brady.
Winner!

Brees' numbers are pretty pedestrian overall. Brady had some ups and downs, like Keenum. Brees was just meh across the board.
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Old 11-19-2013   #147
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by amazing80 View Post
thats a coaching error dude.....just proves even more that gary has no in game feel
It was a huge coaching error! I agree with you. I also agree with you that it is an example of Kubiak's limitation as a coach. Please don't mistake my affinity for Coach Kubiak, nor my willingness to defend him in some areas, for blind loyalty. His process speed and imagination during the game is a weakness. He does not have the ability to adjust on the fly like many of the great coaches have: Belicheck, Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, Sean Peyton, Jim Harbaugh, etc... Heck, as far as that skill goes, he can't match up with Del Rio, Rex Ryan, and others.

I just don't think that precludes Kubiak from have success, even winning championships in the NFL. I believe Kubiak is a coach in skill set, style, and methodology, like:

Marty Schottenheimer
Tony Dungy
or Tom Landry

I don't mean that he is as good as they are. Only that he has similar abilities and that I see that potential in him. So, though I have recognized issues with him and also been quite frustrated at times, I do not/ have not thought he can't win. I still don't. However, I think circumstances in Houston are at a point when a head coaching change is likely- and probably necessary.

-- Hopefully, the coaching search will be a good one and not simply one made for the sake of change. Then, after this team has a lot of success, fans will remember fondly what Kubiak did to build this organization and appreciate his role in the team's future success- especially if Keenum does end up as the answer at QB... If he does, Kubiak deserves a ton of credit for his development!
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Old 11-19-2013   #148
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by HOU-TEX View Post
DJ would've had less of a chance than Tate had on that play. Wade Smith was blasted into the backfield, completely wrecking the play.

An end around?? Maybe we should've tried running 22 veer, no? I mean, it's about as exotic as an end around
It actually wasn't Wade Smith. Myers got blasted into Wade and then he could get around him, if I recall. It was a call destined for failure before the play happened and yet it was also very predictable.... which is incredibly frustrating. I was not arguing for a particular call, but I would have felt better if the play call illustrated an understanding of the game situation and circumstances- not the least of which was Tate's condition. Some sort of adjustment and imagination (not drawing a new play in the sand but making a call against tendency) was required. We have run the fake end around 12-15 times this year and have yet to hand it to the WR... I don't think we do it or should from the Jumbo package... but we did not need to be in the Jumbo package down to one TE, without a healthy RB, and with our interior offensive line getting beat most of the afternoon.
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Old 11-19-2013   #149
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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we get it dale, youre a gary apologist and dont give a damn about our future beyond gary.....just stop typing already
What are you talking about?

Just because I don't spew anger and hate doesn't mean that I don't recognize his failures. I have said for weeks that firing him is justifiable and likely to happen. I can't fully endorse the move until I see who the organization will replace him with. If they were to simply promote Wade Phillips, I would be very disappointed, because that decision would indicate the organization simply wanted a scapegoat for the season and did not recognize/or care to fix the problems that led to this season, as well as last year's disappointing conclusion.

I was a fan of the Texans before Kubiak and am likely to be one afterwards. I say "likely" because there are potential hirings that could deter me... As a Dallas fan, the Switzer years beat my fandom out of me. I'm not sure if I could stomach Rob Ryan... or, God forbid, some nightmare grab from college like Mack Brown (ridiculous, I know, but: Switzer, Holtz, Spurrier, Ron Meyer...)
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Old 11-19-2013   #150
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
Kubiak's comment was on operating tempo. Kubiak has never ran an offense with anything approaching that tempo. Sure, I'm aware of the far lesser competition Case faced, but that has nothing to do with the tempo at which it operates. JFF is operating the same offense at the same tempo in the best conference in football. Kubiak either is doing his best to obfuscate what he really means, or he's failed to prepare his QB adequately.

Given that we've generally looked fantastic in the first half and lousy in the 2nd, I'm not blaming it on the QB, no matter what the number is on the jersey.
I gotcha'. I have never understood Kubiak's avoidance of a no huddle offense. The other night Manning ran it, but it was not a quick snap. He had to run the clock down, so right after the ball was down his offense got in formation. Then he just sat there until there was 5 seconds on the clock to snap it.

This takes a lot of discipline by the offense, but it is effective because it prevents the defense from substituting players and they have to wait much longer than usual for the snap.

Denver can do this because the no-huddle is a staple, so the strategy was a variation of something they already have in their arsenal.

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
Folks think I'm making it up. Hell, I wondered if I was "projecting" my feelings onto it. The tape didn't lie, the short crossing routes weren't there for Case in the 2nd half. They made a miraculous reappearance when #8 stepped onto the field.
I'm glad you mentioned that because I was wondering the same thing during the game. But without the benefit of seeing the whole field, I did not have the big picture to know for certain that those routes were not there.

WTF? It makes no sense...unless you start to speculate on other things.

The traditional WCO has always been strong on beating blitzes. It is the nature of the scheme, and many QBs have used it effectively against the blitz for decades.

Heck, Buddy Ryan's blitz happy 46 defense had one Achilles heel: the WCO. They always had a hard time against the 49ers, and we even saw it with the Oilers and Joe Montana in a Chiefs uniform tearing up Buddy's defense.

So why are the short routes not there for Case? Million dollar question.
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Old 11-19-2013   #151
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I'm glad you mentioned that because I was wondering the same thing during the game. But without the benefit of seeing the whole field, I did not have the big picture to know for certain that those routes were not there.

WTF? It makes no sense...unless you start to speculate on other things.

The traditional WCO has always been strong on beating blitzes. It is the nature of the scheme, and many QBs have used it effectively against the blitz for decades.

Heck, Buddy Ryan's blitz happy 46 defense had one Achilles heel: the WCO. They always had a hard time against the 49ers, and we even saw it with the Oilers and Joe Montana in a Chiefs uniform tearing up Buddy's defense.

So why are the short routes not there for Case? Million dollar question.
Because he sucks at picking up the blitz. They don't run those routes because he doesn't pick up on them, so they run streaks while he takes a 7-step drop in the face of a 12-man blitz.

You really suck at following the narrative, DB.
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Old 11-19-2013   #152
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Default

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Winner!

Brees' numbers are pretty pedestrian overall. Brady had some ups and downs, like Keenum. Brees was just meh across the board.
And that is with much better coach.
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Old 11-19-2013   #153
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

People act like this is new. Case as ive said has limitstiond on the type of routes that can be performed. He also hss been trying to mske everything a big play. His inability to see ovrr the pressure in his face has been bad. Hes s young guy and I prefer to evaluate him to see if hes a backup or just a placeholder till they get the right qb.
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Old 11-19-2013   #154
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I gotcha'. I have never understood Kubiak's avoidance of a no huddle offense. The other night Manning ran it, but it was not a quick snap. He had to run the clock down, so right after the ball was down his offense got in formation. Then he just sat there until there was 5 seconds on the clock to snap it.

This takes a lot of discipline by the offense, but it is effective because it prevents the defense from substituting players and they have to wait much longer than usual for the snap.

Denver can do this because the no-huddle is a staple, so the strategy was a variation of something they already have in their arsenal.


I'm glad you mentioned that because I was wondering the same thing during the game. But without the benefit of seeing the whole field, I did not have the big picture to know for certain that those routes were not there.

WTF? It makes no sense...unless you start to speculate on other things.

The traditional WCO has always been strong on beating blitzes. It is the nature of the scheme, and many QBs have used it effectively against the blitz for decades.

Heck, Buddy Ryan's blitz happy 46 defense had one Achilles heel: the WCO. They always had a hard time against the 49ers, and we even saw it with the Oilers and Joe Montana in a Chiefs uniform tearing up Buddy's defense.

So why are the short routes not there for Case? Million dollar question.
I think what dale suggests about him not being able to see over and around the LOS on those 3 step drops has some validity.....there's no denying he's had some issues hitting the short underneath stuff....but then you could still run slants and stuff like that out of the shotgun too so...

Keenum's the type that wont throw the ball unless he's got a safe place to miss the throw as well....That's a good thing most times, but it can be detrimental when trying to throw inside b/c tight windows are the norm and there's usually not a safe place to miss..especially across the middle.
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Old 11-19-2013   #155
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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I think what dale suggests about him not being able to see over and around the LOS on those 3 step drops has some validity.....there's no denying he's had some issues hitting the short underneath stuff....but then you could still run slants and stuff like that out of the shotgun too so...

Keenum's the type that wont throw the ball unless he's got a safe place to miss the throw as well....That's a good thing most times, but it can be detrimental when trying to throw inside b/c tight windows are the norm and there's usually not a safe place to miss..especially across the middle.
what? he threw a dart to posey in traffic...why dont we try that again?

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Old 11-19-2013   #156
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Since Keenum is going into his 5th game, we'll do 5 games. Guess the QB first and then guess which posters would have declared him not NFL caliber --

1st game: 13/23, 168 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 1 sack for 9 yds, QB rtg 79.6, 0 fumbles

2nd game: 12/24, 86 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 4 sacks for 17 yds, QB rtg 58.7, 2 fumbles lost

3rd game: 33/54, 364 yds, 2TD, 0INT, 3 sacks for 19 yds, QB rtg 93.4, 2 fumbles, 0 lost

4th game: 16/20, 202 yds, 3TD, 0INT, 0 sacks, QB rtg 148.3, 0 fumbles

5th game: 25/38, 203 yds, 2TD, 4INT, 2 sacks for 20 yds, QB rtg 57.1, 1 fumble, 0 lost

For anyone who misses the obvious point, 5 games in is still evaluation time. It takes the best QBs a while to figure it out.
For whatever reason, I averaged these out, so I'm going to post the average of these 5 games:

20/32, 205 yds., 2TD, 1INT, 2 sacks for 13 yds, QB rtg 87.42, 1 fumble, 0 lost.
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Old 11-19-2013   #157
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by amazing80 View Post
what? he threw a dart to posey in traffic...why dont we try that again?

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-medi...6-a5e3fbc41d90
That's 1 play bud...1 play that was hardly in traffic...1 play that he also was in the shotgun in....1 play that he also ran a trillion times at U of H.

Why didn't you pull up the numerous near picks and pass break ups he had trying to throw over the middle in the AZ game? Or the short armed pass to AJ last week?
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Old 11-19-2013   #158
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
That's 1 play bud...1 play that was hardly in traffic...1 play that he also was in the shotgun in....1 play that he also ran a trillion times at U of H.

Why didn't you pull up the numerous near picks and pass break ups he had trying to throw over the middle in the AZ game? Or the short armed pass to AJ last week?
because im showing a play that proves case can beat a blitz with, yet we fail to use it more
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Old 11-19-2013   #159
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
People act like this is new. Case as ive said has limitstiond on the type of routes that can be performed. He also hss been trying to mske everything a big play. His inability to see ovrr the pressure in his face has been bad.
You honestly think they don't run crossing patterns because Case is short? You honestly believe that?
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Old 11-19-2013   #160
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
Folks think I'm making it up. Hell, I wondered if I was "projecting" my feelings onto it. The tape didn't lie, the short crossing routes weren't there for Case in the 2nd half. They made a miraculous reappearance when #8 stepped onto the field.
That was my impression watching the game also. Schaub made one good throw. Other than that I saw guys running right across his face on short crossing routes wide open.

I thought, well maybe case was just missing those guys. But it just didn't make any sense that he couldn't beat a single blitz by hitting a guy on a quick slant or a drag...quick routes are staples of beating the blitz and it's just strange that it seems case is always waiting for something diene field to develop. No three step drops. I mean, even awful qb's should be able to dink and dunk if a team is constantly blitzing.

I said it after the game but I think subconsciously kubiak may not be putting case in as good of a situation as he could. It's like his game plan has gotten lazier, and lazier. And then the goofiness about him fixin to do some stuff that the young qb wasn't prepared for. I don't trust kubiak. That whole situation is curious to me.

The whole mentioning of Schaub working hard to start again early in the week...then he inserts him into the game to play hero.

And my guy tells me starting case this week wasn't his decision. Hes normally tight lipped about that all week, and now all of a sudden he just spouts it out when the first person asked.

I'll be glad when this season is over and kubiak is gone.
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