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Old 11-19-2013   #101
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
That statement just eats me up.

Of course he'd do it again. He can't change his nature and all the evidence seems to point to a guy who is stuck in a real rut but who can't see it himself. He's a talented signal caller who is so certain that his system is the answer that he's stopped changing and growing. Can't do that in a league where not moving forward is the same thing as falling behind.
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Old 11-19-2013   #102
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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See though, the bolded is where i just disagree. It looks different b/c of how we've been scoring as of late......but different doesn't translate to better.

Everyone, including myself, thought that we just needed to go deep more...to stop teams from sitting on the short stuff. Well, we've been doing that with Keenum & we still can't score a damn TD in the 2nd half of games. What's more is that it appears we've made a bad situation worse. The o-line is playing as bad as they've ever played since we've tried to emulate air-coryell.

The other thing is, early in the season the offense had 2 hellified explosive halfs against SD and Tenn where we looked just about unstoppable.....and that was with Schaub. Sure, we weren't going deep but we were moving the ball pretty much at will. & just like now, we had the same set of issues. We didn't run the ball well, our o-line had trouble in pass pro, our ST's was still trash and our defense wasn't exactly doing much either. We've seen that in the past with Schaub and this offense where they just get on a roll.


I just think the offense has just gotten stale & outdated. I mean, you're starting to hear grumblings out of Washington from RG3 about how teams are keying in on their predictability.....& they have a premium talent at the qb position. I don't think it's a coincidence that the 2 teams saying this run virtually the same offense.


No, you don't disagree. I just didn't state clearly enough what I meant. We're exactly on the same page with this. The offense is stale and predicatable and I didn't mean to completely equate Case's mere presence with being the reason things improved. I meant that even the slight adjustments in formation and play selection that Kubiak made in KC and in the first half against Indy was enough to shake things loose a little more. I think we'd have had productive halves with Schaub too (obviously less dramatic deep stuff) with those changes.

Case made Gary get out of his comfort zone a little bit but at the same time Gary wants back in there as soon as he can. He doesn't see that the changes were what made things better, not just the QB change.

Case is more dynamic than Matt. Plugged into Gary's offense the way Matt has been Case is just a less experienced Matt who gets eaten alive and sometimes breaks loose and can create on the fly. Matt can barely do that. That's Case's gift. The bigger problem is the offense which I think needs to go. Spending 6 more games teaching Case to be as much like Matt as possible is going in reverse. Gary needs to change what he's doing. If he did that even Schaub's experience would be put to better use.
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Old 11-19-2013   #103
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Well, that's kind of the weird thing to me and the biggest indictment of Kubiak as HC in recent memory. He's trying to win games to save his job. We all get that. I think McNair gets that. I don't think wins are what saves Gary Kubiak if he is (or was prior to Sunday) able to save his ass. I think that sticking to Schaub, even if it provides us with a couple of extra ugly dysfunctional wins this year is a huge mistake. In this sense I think that McNair and the ticket buying public are on the same page. No one wants to see anymore safe and mostly ineffectual "Schaub-ball" with the Texans beating up on the weak sisters and crawling to a .500 record (which I know is no longer even possible). This isn't Gary's first couple of years where a late season rally to 8-8 will look like progress. That tack won't cut it in 2013.

Gary says he hasn't lost the locker room and I again accept that he sees it that way. What he doesn't seem to understand is that having a locker room full of guys who say the right things (because they're been trained to do so) and having a locker room full of guys who all like you isn't the same thing as having a locker room full of guys who are all with you. They can all be your friends and like you and one another while knowing that what you're doing isn't working. Just because a guy will buy you dinner and talk good about you on his radio show doesn't mean he's got your back professionally.

Gary would have gotten more mileage out of taking Keenum's playmaking ability (which neither Schaub nor Yates can really match) and just throwing out the rule book and setting that guy up to score points. I felt like at times against KC and against Indianapolis in the first half that was happening. I thought that against Arizona it looked like we tried to fit him more into the system we run (though I thought that had more to do with a lack of willingness on Dennison's part to be creative on his own apart from what Gary would have done) and I felt like against Oakland we literally tried to shove him into a "Matt Schaub" shaped hole (ok, bad round peg-square hole attempt).

Our offense has looked best under Keenum when it looked nothing like what Matt was doing but that requires Gary to be outside of his comfort zone and he just doesn't seem willing to do that.

Gary had a chance I thought to come back if he'd shown growth. If the team had gone through this brutal season and transformed in the process to a different kind of offense that was exciting and unpredictable. Wins would have been nice but I don't even think that wins would have been necessary. I think if he'd made the offense change to fit Case and feature Case then he could have fallen back on "Well, we lost so many guys but the silver lining is that we found a way to do things differently in the process" and people would have accepted it.

Remember how bad Richard Smith's defense was up until that one year when everyone knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was gone as soon as the season was over. Then out of nowhere with no other options he turned that ****ty 4-3 of his into a fierce, attacking, swarming monster for like 5 games. Anyone else remember that? Everyone thought they'd turned the corner and he'd finally worked it out but not really. He was just desperate and saving his job and he didn't learn anything from that. He went right back into the never ending Prevent-turtle defense the next year and he was eventually fired.
Gary needed to come out taking chances and he can't make himself do it or stick to it for very long because it's outside of his being to do that. That's why he'll be gone.
The whole defensive coordinator debacle was enough to fire Gary IMO . Why do you keep a coach that doesn't carry enough clout to get a top notch DC ? You do have to give him credit for the ability to keep his team focused at 5-7 and rally to finish the season .
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Old 11-19-2013   #104
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
You mean like you did? in yates' regular season starts in 2011 he only threw 3 picks not 8. you systematically added in his 2 from the blowout rams loss in which he did not start....he came in cold turkey with no 1st team reps. and you also added the 3 he threw.......... in a playoff game .....against a SB contender no less...a level of intensity that most young qbs would fold under let alone a guy making his 1st playoff start ever as a rookie.

Which again bring me back to yates being a true rookie...green as they come...unlike Keenum who at least got to sit and learn the system & get somewhat of an idea of the speed of the NFL his rookie year.

All i'm saying is, there's next to no reason why anyone should be more excited & optimistic for Keenum than they were for Yates. They look about the same at this juncture. Yates came out & looked solid against Jax & ATL, looked damn good against Cincy & then stunk it up his next 2 starts against Carolina & Indy....Pretty much the same deal with Keenum thus far.
Umm...you can choose to ignore the truth but it doesn't change the facts. I didn't make anything up. I didn't throw out bogus statements. Those are Yates' career REGULAR season stats. I never said 8 INTs. You misquoted me. I said 6. He was 3-3 in 2011, 0-1 in 2012 and 0-2 in 2013. Does that show progress? You give Yates an "excuse" for not being prepared to come in and he threw 2 picks against the Rams. You give Yates an excuse for throwing 3 INTs (should have been more like 5-6) in a playoff game. But...you don't give Keenum the credit for only having 3 days worth of 1st team reps all year before his first start in the NFL. Oh yeah - he threw no picks that day either. Against a playoff team. On the road. In a playoff-type atmosphere.

Bottom line is Yates had his chance. Yates didn't look "solid" ever. He looked OK. He showed nothing special. Nothing Yates does makes you say if he just improved in one or two areas he'll be great. You can say if Keenum cleans up the blitz issues and understands when it's OK to throw the ball away - he could be great.

If Keenum can't get his problem areas corrected then draft a QB. If he can then someone is going to have a tough decision to make.
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Old 11-19-2013   #105
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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“You guys don’t understand and I’m trying to explain to you—let me try one more time,” Kubiak said. “I’m fine with Case in a two-minute situation. What I was doing, calling the game and some of the decisions, I made to go with to try and help the quarterback out and the offensive line out. It was fixing to be very difficult. It was fixing to be very fast for a young guy who has never been through it. That’s why I did what I did.”
Funny, but I saw better pocket protection and shorter routes with Schaub as well. For God sakes, don't tell me the kid isn't capable of running a faster-paced offense than you've ever put on a field. Talk to Sumlin about what pace he can operate at. For extended periods. Outside of a two-minute drill.


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Actually, I think I was really thinking of (Keenum) to be honest with you,” Kubiak said. “I’ve been in this league a long time and dealt with a lot of quarterbacks. I’m trying to develop one right now. Right or wrong, I made that decision because of the situation I thought I was fixing to put a young player in from my standpoint of what I was doing coaching wise. I don’t have time to explain that to y’all. That’s why I do what I did. He knows that. I talked to him about that.”
Then you better damn well MAKE sure that player is prepared for that situation before you get into a game situation. You've had a season and a half to get him ready. To paraphrase your own standard commentary: "That's on you!"
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Old 11-19-2013   #106
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Exascor View Post
Umm...you can choose to ignore the truth but it doesn't change the facts. I didn't make anything up. I didn't throw out bogus statements. Those are Yates' career REGULAR season stats. I never said 8 INTs. You misquoted me. I said 6. He was 3-3 in 2011, 0-1 in 2012 and 0-2 in 2013. Does that show progress? You give Yates an "excuse" for not being prepared to come in and he threw 2 picks against the Rams. You give Yates an excuse for throwing 3 INTs (should have been more like 5-6) in a playoff game. But...you don't give Keenum the credit for only having 3 days worth of 1st team reps all year before his first start in the NFL. Oh yeah - he threw no picks that day either. Against a playoff team. On the road. In a playoff-type atmosphere.

Bottom line is Yates had his chance. Yates didn't look "solid" ever. He looked OK. He showed nothing special. Nothing Yates does makes you say if he just improved in one or two areas he'll be great. You can say if Keenum cleans up the blitz issues and understands when it's OK to throw the ball away - he could be great.


If Keenum can't get his problem areas corrected then draft a QB. If he can then someone is going to have a tough decision to make.


Only in your mind does having 3 days of 1st team reps = being thrown in during garbage time in 2 separate blowout games with no 1st team reps all year. The defense knows you have to pass to get back in the game & the qb has to take more chances...If you think that doesn't matter in what TJ faced then you're even more deluded than i thought.

Lol at you thinking that a regular season game being the equivalent to an playoff atmosphere.

The truth? I'll tell you what the truth is. The truth is your blind Keenum love is going to allow you to view Case in the most positive light possible....even when it aint so glowing.

There's just no way you can sit up here and say yates wasn't solid "ever" in his 1st couple of starts. WE WON 3 OF HIS CAREER TOTAL STARTS largely b/c he did well...one of those was directly b/c of him and his poise.
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Old 11-19-2013   #107
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

I don't have a clue why some of you don't even consider the possibility that the reason why Kubiak took him out, was simply to protect Keenum from getting killed. They were blitzing him every down, and RBs weren't picking it up and WRs were not adjusting their routes. He said as much in his post-game statements.

And if he said, "I'd do it it again, given those circumstances", why is that such a a hard concept to grasp?
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Old 11-19-2013   #108
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
I don't have a clue why some of you don't even consider the possibility that the reason why Kubiak took him out, was simply to protect Keenum from getting killed. They were blitzing him every down, and RBs weren't picking it up and WRs were not adjusting their routes. He said as much in his post-game statements.

And if he said, "I'd do it it again, given those circumstances", why is that such a a hard concept to grasp?

Then its on Kubiak for not preparing Case and the offense to handle these all out blitzes we are facing each game.
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Old 11-19-2013   #109
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

Kubiak.............kick the OL's and RBs' butts and open it up!

The Jags allow the second-most points in the NFL (31.8) and just allowed Carson Palmer to throw for 419 yards and two scores.
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Old 11-19-2013   #110
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Of course he'd do it again. He can't change his nature and all the evidence seems to point to a guy who is stuck in a real rut but who can't see it himself. He's a talented signal caller who is so certain that his system is the answer that he's stopped changing and growing. Can't do that in a league where not moving forward is the same thing as falling behind.
As a Kubiak fan, I am unable to dispute that argument... Other than engaging in wishful thinking. That that is the most concise critique I have seen. I also think you can extend that same statement to wade and his defense.
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Old 11-19-2013   #111
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
Funny, but I saw better pocket protection and shorter routes with Schaub as well. For God sakes, don't tell me the kid isn't capable of running a faster-paced offense than you've ever put on a field. Talk to Sumlin about what pace he can operate at. For extended periods. Outside of a two-minute drill.


Then you better damn well MAKE sure that player is prepared for that situation before you get into a game situation. You've had a season and a half to get him ready. To paraphrase your own standard commentary: "That's on you!"
That's what I'm saying.

Kubiaks comments don't even make sense anymore.

Kubiak set Schaub up to be the hero in front of the home town crowd and it blew up in his face. You can hear the uncertainty and straw grasping in his voice...you can tell he's lost by how he answers questions.

The whole, I pulled him because I was protecting him and I was about to unleash some **** that was above his level is bogus.

To me it sounds like kubiak is half assing his coaching. Case is so bad that all a team has to do is blitz him every play and the offense does nothing? Something is not right there. Either case really sucks bad or someone is not preparing the offense.

But there is no way a team should not be able to just blitz, blitz, blitz and the offense can't do anything about it.
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Old 11-19-2013   #112
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by texanhead08 View Post
Then its on Kubiak for not preparing Case and the offense to handle these all out blitzes we are facing each game.
It isn't magic. QBs develop over years, not days. Keenum's development and performance is the strongest argument Kubiak has for not being fired this year.
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Old 11-19-2013   #113
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
I don't have a clue why some of you don't even consider the possibility that the reason why Kubiak took him out, was simply to protect Keenum from getting killed. They were blitzing him every down, and RBs weren't picking it up and WRs were not adjusting their routes. He said as much in his post-game statements.

And if he said, "I'd do it it again, given those circumstances", why is that such a a hard concept to grasp?
I get that. I don't necessarily just take him at his word but I understand that's his explanation. What I get from that is Gary saying "It's not just Case. The entire team I've spent years preparing really sucks a lot. RB's who were with us in camp and who have been practicing with us for weeks can't pick up rushers and WR's who have been here in some cases for years can't adjust their routes. Basically nobody can be bothered to do their job or try and make things better for the new starting QB so I helped him out by benching him"


I just hate this team sometimes. Not for long and not really but the circles that you find yourself going in when trying to work out what they're doing are really something else. I guess being a Browns fan would be worse (obviously it would) but every once in a while I feel like I get what it must be like to be them.
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Old 11-19-2013   #114
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
I don't have a clue why some of you don't even consider the possibility that the reason why Kubiak took him out, was simply to protect Keenum from getting killed. They were blitzing him every down, and RBs weren't picking it up and WRs were not adjusting their routes. He said as much in his post-game statements.

And if he said, "I'd do it it again, given those circumstances", why is that such a a hard concept to grasp?
I posted this out right after the end of the game (as well as the total ineptitude of the OL to pass protect).

I think I would have felt much better about Kubiak's statement if he would have added that " We will fix these problems for Case to have a viable chance to show his skills the rest of the season."
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Old 11-19-2013   #115
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
Funny, but I saw better pocket protection and shorter routes with Schaub as well. For God sakes, don't tell me the kid isn't capable of running a faster-paced offense than you've ever put on a field. Talk to Sumlin about what pace he can operate at. For extended periods. Outside of a two-minute drill.


Then you better damn well MAKE sure that player is prepared for that situation before you get into a game situation. You've had a season and a half to get him ready. To paraphrase your own standard commentary: "That's on you!"
Schaub is experienced. He recognizes blitzes easier and knows the hot routes, etc. and has played in this system for7 years. Pretty simple really.
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Old 11-19-2013   #116
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Schaub is experienced. He recognizes blitzes easier and knows the hot routes, etc. and has played in this system for7 years. Pretty simple really.
Let's not make Schaub a model for blitz response. For the most part, the D did not blitz because they were not afraid of Schaub's "finesse" arm. Near the end of the game, when he was blitzed, he remained statuesque and became disfunctional.
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Old 11-19-2013   #117
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

Since Keenum is going into his 5th game, we'll do 5 games. Guess the QB first and then guess which posters would have declared him not NFL caliber --

1st game: 13/23, 168 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 1 sack for 9 yds, QB rtg 79.6, 0 fumbles

2nd game: 12/24, 86 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 4 sacks for 17 yds, QB rtg 58.7, 2 fumbles lost

3rd game: 33/54, 364 yds, 2TD, 0INT, 3 sacks for 19 yds, QB rtg 93.4, 2 fumbles, 0 lost

4th game: 16/20, 202 yds, 3TD, 0INT, 0 sacks, QB rtg 148.3, 0 fumbles

5th game: 25/38, 203 yds, 2TD, 4INT, 2 sacks for 20 yds, QB rtg 57.1, 1 fumble, 0 lost




For anyone who misses the obvious point, 5 games in is still evaluation time. It takes the best QBs a while to figure it out.
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Old 11-19-2013   #118
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Let's not make Schaub a model for blitz response. For the most part, the D did not blitz because they were not afraid of Schaub's "finesse" arm. Near the end of the game, when he was blitzed, he remained statuesque and became disfunctional.
I disagree. He became dysfunctional in the red zone... and not because of the blitz, but because they dropped too many bodies into a confined space and his finesse arm couldn't get the ball into the tight space... That's why he is so good in the middle of the field but not the red zone. He is a very quick decision-maker and has excellent recognition skills. Unfortunately, his lack of athleticism, failing arm strength, and elongated stride create other problems for him.

Clearly, though, from an objective view, the offense improved after Schaub replaced Keenum... many fans miss that because they felt a sense of doom when he entered the game and they still lost... and lost in a predictable way. It's the baggage of years of disappointment. What if Kubiak had re-benched Schaub during the last redzone trip?.. that would've have been truly ballsy and also likely won the game, because Keenum can play in the red zone with his athleticism- ability to bootleg, quicker release and better arm.
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Old 11-19-2013   #119
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Since Keenum is going into his 5th game, we'll do 5 games. Guess the QB first and then guess which posters would have declared him not NFL caliber --

1st game: 13/23, 168 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 1 sack for 9 yds, QB rtg 79.6, 0 fumbles

2nd game: 12/24, 86 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 4 sacks for 17 yds, QB rtg 58.7, 2 fumbles lost

3rd game: 33/54, 364 yds, 2TD, 0INT, 3 sacks for 19 yds, QB rtg 93.4, 2 fumbles, 0 lost

4th game: 16/20, 202 yds, 3TD, 0INT, 0 sacks, QB rtg 148.3, 0 fumbles

5th game: 25/38, 203 yds, 2TD, 4INT, 2 sacks for 20 yds, QB rtg 57.1, 1 fumble, 0 lost




For anyone who misses the obvious point, 5 games in is still evaluation time. It takes the best QBs a while to figure it out.
I'm not seeing anyone with negative posts about Keenum. The closest thing I have seen are people wanting to draft another QB for competition with him. My impression is that everyone on the board is very encouraged and excited about his play. I certainly am!
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Old 11-19-2013   #120
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Default Re: Keenum starter for Jacksonville game

Quote:
Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Since Keenum is going into his 5th game, we'll do 5 games. Guess the QB first and then guess which posters would have declared him not NFL caliber --

1st game: 13/23, 168 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 1 sack for 9 yds, QB rtg 79.6, 0 fumbles

2nd game: 12/24, 86 yds, 0TD, 0INT, 4 sacks for 17 yds, QB rtg 58.7, 2 fumbles lost

3rd game: 33/54, 364 yds, 2TD, 0INT, 3 sacks for 19 yds, QB rtg 93.4, 2 fumbles, 0 lost

4th game: 16/20, 202 yds, 3TD, 0INT, 0 sacks, QB rtg 148.3, 0 fumbles

5th game: 25/38, 203 yds, 2TD, 4INT, 2 sacks for 20 yds, QB rtg 57.1, 1 fumble, 0 lost




For anyone who misses the obvious point, 5 games in is still evaluation time. It takes the best QBs a while to figure it out.
OK, I'll play. Who? Manning?
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