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Old 11-11-2013   #261
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
We're still in the middle of the CFB season and have yet to have championship games and bowl games. Then the combine, then pro days, then free agency then comes the draft. Opinions will change.
I realize that .... but from what I've seen on the field , none of these guy's are an Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning coming out of college.

I think each one has flaws , and I'm ... all over the place in evaluation of them on a week to week basis just as they are in their performances.

The most consistent performer of them to me is .... Manziel but how does his game translate to an NFL field ?? I don't think I've seen him take a snap from under center all season not to mention his size.
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Old 11-11-2013   #262
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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I realize that .... but from what I've seen on the field , none of these guy's are an Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning coming out of college.

I think each one has flaws , and I'm ... all over the place in evaluation of them on a week to week basis just as they are in their performances.

The most consistent performer of them to me is .... Manziel but how does his game translate to an NFL field ?? I don't think I've seen him take a snap from under center all season not to mention his size.
All I know is every time I watch him I'm stunned at his play making ability. He's Fran Tarkington reborn. He tore up Alabamas defense. That's impressive! They are loaded with nfl talent. Of course it all depends on who the coach is and what type of system they plan on running.

Could you imagine if we brought in art briles and drafted manzel? Pick up a good RT in the second or third and use the rest if the draft on defense.

I think Case has done a really good job considering the circumstances. But in no way am I ready to hand him The reigns to the team just yet. I know he's been in tough situations but he's had opportunities to lead us to wins and hasn't come through. A true franchise QB will find a way to win those games. He has 7 more games to show he can be the guy. I'm pulling for him but I'm being very cautious of fools gold. The QB position is too important. I don't want a really good QB. I want a great QB.

Obviously the draft is a gamble but you have to bet to win. Until Case or someone steps up and shows he can carry the team on his back to victories then we should be doing what ever it takes to keep bringing in talent at that position.
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Old 11-11-2013   #263
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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I realize that .... but from what I've seen on the field , none of these guy's are an Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning coming out of college.

I think each one has flaws , and I'm ... all over the place in evaluation of them on a week to week basis just as they are in their performances.

The most consistent performer of them to me is .... Manziel but how does his game translate to an NFL field ?? I don't think I've seen him take a snap from under center all season not to mention his size.
I disagree. Bridgewater has completed over 70% of his passes in all but 2 games, he's thrown for 250+ in every game but 1, he's thrown multiple TD's in all but 2 games, and has really only had 1 bad game (by his standards) which was his last game. He's thrown for 2845 yards while completing 71.4% of his passes with 24 TD's and 3 INT's.

He is constantly knocked for his team losing to UCF (who will likely be in the Orange Bowl this year) despite the fact that he was 29/38 for 341 yards and 2 TD's in that game. To me, he's definitely the best NFL prospect this year at QB and is only knocked because of the level of competition he plays. What people fail to realize is that his teammates are that same level of competition. The reason his team is seen as superior to the competition is because of him.

People said the same stuff about Roethlisberger, but when a guy has the tools he has them. I don't see any of the Case fanboys complaining about his college competition....
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Old 11-11-2013   #264
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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I disagree. Bridgewater has completed over 70% of his passes in all but 2 games, he's thrown for 250+ in every game but 1, he's thrown multiple TD's in all but 2 games, and has really only had 1 bad game (by his standards) which was his last game. He's thrown for 2845 yards while completing 71.4% of his passes with 24 TD's and 3 INT's.

He is constantly knocked for his team losing to UCF (who will likely be in the Orange Bowl this year) despite the fact that he was 29/38 for 341 yards and 2 TD's in that game. To me, he's definitely the best NFL prospect this year at QB and is only knocked because of the level of competition he plays. What people fail to realize is that his teammates are that same level of competition. The reason his team is seen as superior to the competition is because of him.

People said the same stuff about Roethlisberger, but when a guy has the tools he has them. I don't see any of the Case fanboys complaining about his college competition....
I didn't mention Bridgewater mainly because I suspect he'll go #1 overall .... and you are right , about the only knock on him is the level of competition he's playing against. He has all the tools ... but he's nowhere near the caliber of prospect that Luck or Peymeaton were coming out.
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Old 11-11-2013   #265
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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All I know is every time I watch him I'm stunned at his play making ability. He's Fran Tarkington reborn. He tore up Alabamas defense. That's impressive! They are loaded with nfl talent. Of course it all depends on who the coach is and what type of system they plan on running.

Could you imagine if we brought in art briles and drafted manzel? Pick up a good RT in the second or third and use the rest if the draft on defense.

I think Case has done a really good job considering the circumstances. But in no way am I ready to hand him The reigns to the team just yet. I know he's been in tough situations but he's had opportunities to lead us to wins and hasn't come through. A true franchise QB will find a way to win those games. He has 7 more games to show he can be the guy. I'm pulling for him but I'm being very cautious of fools gold. The QB position is too important. I don't want a really good QB. I want a great QB.

Obviously the draft is a gamble but you have to bet to win. Until Case or someone steps up and shows he can carry the team on his back to victories then we should be doing what ever it takes to keep bringing in talent at that position.
I'm not ready to hand Case the reins yet either .... yes , he's had opportunities to win games and come up short but .... his OL has probably been just as big a part of those failures as anything he's done.


I'm still in a wait and see mode with the QB position ... I am not in that same mode when it comes to RT or LG , tho I believe Quessenberry can come in and fill the LG spot adequately next season. There is no NFL quality RT on this roster.
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Old 11-11-2013   #266
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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I think Case has done a really good job considering the circumstances. But in no way am I ready to hand him The reigns to the team just yet. I know he's been in tough situations but he's had opportunities to lead us to wins and hasn't come through. A true franchise QB will find a way to win those games.
Just thought I would look into this for perspective. Didn't want to argue over true franchise QB and so went with Hall of Fame + 2 we know will go.

Staubach 3 W
Aikman 3 L
Elway 2 W, 1 L - LOL, in the 2 wins he had 10 completions total, 1 in his 1st game.
Kelly 1 W, 2 L
Favre 1 W, 2 L
Manning 3 L
Marino 3 L
Brady 2 W, 1 L
Bradshaw 3 L
Young 1 W, 2 L
Montana 3 L

Total 10 W, 23 L

Draw from that what you will.
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Old 11-11-2013   #267
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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I didn't mention Bridgewater mainly because I suspect he'll go #1 overall .... and you are right , about the only knock on him is the level of competition he's playing against. He has all the tools ... but he's nowhere near the caliber of prospect that Luck or Peymeaton were coming out.
No, he's not. But then again, those are the only two guys of that caliber that have come out in the last two decades. You're in for a long wait if you're waiting for that guy to come out again before you pull the trigger (although Winston has potential).
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Old 11-11-2013   #268
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

I'm not sure Bridgewater goes #1, he is a bit frail and his deep ball has a tendency to float. Several of his long passes would've been INTs in the NFL. Reminds me of Landry Jones arm.

Manziel has quickest hands, feet and release of any college QB playing this year. Has taken several snaps under center this year. Is running much less this year but still likely to rush for 1000. His mistakes don't phase him, he bounces right back with a TD. Ask yourself this question, with game on the line and you need a game winning drive, in whose hands do you want the football? For me, hands down, no question, it's Johnny Football.

I didn't see anything from Bama vs LSU that changed my thinking on why A. J. McCarron should be a 1st RD draft pick. In fact the LSU game just reinforced my opinion that A.J. will go in round 1.
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Old 11-11-2013   #269
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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I'm not sure Bridgewater goes #1, he is a bit frail and his deep ball has a tendency to float. Several of his long passes would've been INTs in the NFL. Reminds me of Landry Jones arm.

Manziel has quickest hands, feet and release of any college QB playing this year. Has taken several snaps under center this year. Is running much less this year but still likely to rush for 1000. His mistakes don't phase him, he bounces right back with a TD. Ask yourself this question, with game on the line and you need a game winning drive, in whose hands do you want the football? For me, hands down, no question, it's Johnny Football.

I didn't see anything from Bama vs LSU that changed my thinking on why A. J. McCarron should be a 1st RD draft pick. In fact the LSU game just reinforced my opinion that A.J. will go in round 1.
What scares me about AJ is the he is rarely touched in the pocket. He has all day to throw with that o-line and it's not going to be that way in the pro's. the intangibles are there for sure though.
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Old 11-11-2013   #270
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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What scares me about AJ is the he is rarely touched in the pocket. He has all day to throw with that o-line and it's not going to be that way in the pro's. the intangibles are there for sure though.
He had some pressure from LSU, was even sacked but for the most he did a good job avoiding the pressure. He has a presence.
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Old 11-11-2013   #271
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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What scares me about AJ is the he is rarely touched in the pocket. He has all day to throw with that o-line and it's not going to be that way in the pro's. the intangibles are there for sure though.
Everybody knows my thoughts on McCarron, Bridgewater may be more talented, but McCarron has a very good chance to become the best QB in this draft. Tall/accurate/leader with above avg arm strength (as good as Bridgewater.) Performs well on the big stage.

Luck had a great OL and and people didn't use that as a knock on him come draft day. I guess the Bama/Saban hate runs deep.
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Old 11-11-2013   #272
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Just thought I would look into this for perspective. Didn't want to argue over true franchise QB and so went with Hall of Fame + 2 we know will go.

Staubach 3 W
Aikman 3 L
Elway 2 W, 1 L - LOL, in the 2 wins he had 10 completions total, 1 in his 1st game.
Kelly 1 W, 2 L
Favre 1 W, 2 L
Manning 3 L
Marino 3 L
Brady 2 W, 1 L
Bradshaw 3 L
Young 1 W, 2 L
Montana 3 L

Total 10 W, 23 L

Draw from that what you will.

I can't really draw anything from that. Well except maybe he that it's just to soon to tell. Which is why I said he has seven more games to prove it or we need to take a gamble on in the draft. Of course even 10 games doesn't mean he can't eventually become a great QB. What I'm saying is if he hast proved it without a doubt we need to go after someone else. That doesn't mean give up on Case. We might not have this chance again for a long time. Hopefully.
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Old 11-11-2013   #273
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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I disagree. Bridgewater has completed over 70% of his passes in all but 2 games, he's thrown for 250+ in every game but 1, he's thrown multiple TD's in all but 2 games, and has really only had 1 bad game (by his standards) which was his last game. He's thrown for 2845 yards while completing 71.4% of his passes with 24 TD's and 3 INT's.

He is constantly knocked for his team losing to UCF (who will likely be in the Orange Bowl this year) despite the fact that he was 29/38 for 341 yards and 2 TD's in that game. To me, he's definitely the best NFL prospect this year at QB and is only knocked because of the level of competition he plays. What people fail to realize is that his teammates are that same level of competition. The reason his team is seen as superior to the competition is because of him.

People said the same stuff about Roethlisberger, but when a guy has the tools he has them. I don't see any of the Case fanboys complaining about his college competition....
Just curious, what do you think he does better than manzel? And remember manzel IS going against the best competition in college football.
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Old 11-11-2013   #274
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Just curious, what do you think he does better than manzel? And remember manzel IS going against the best completion in college football.
Honestly .... he does nothing better other than grow to the prototypical NFL QB height - I wont say size cause he don't have much sand in his pants .... where as Manziel is 5'11" / 6 ft and considered undersized.
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Old 11-11-2013   #275
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Everybody knows my thoughts on McCarron, Bridgewater may be more talented, but McCarron has a very good chance to become the best QB in this draft. Tall/accurate/leader with above avg arm strength (as good as Bridgewater.) Performs well on the big stage.

Luck had a great OL and and people didn't use that as a knock on him come draft day. I guess the Bama/Saban hate runs deep.
My statement has nothing to do with Bama/Saban so idk why you threw that in there. Luck did have a great o-line, but Luck is also a strong, very athletic QB he could run over defenders. With that said, I never said he isn't worth a first round pick. His skills and intangibles are there like i stated on my initial post. My only fear is that he won't find it as easy in the pro's like he has at Bama in the pocket. Can he overcome that? Of course.
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Old 11-11-2013   #276
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Just curious, what do you think he does better than manzel? And remember manzel IS going against the best competition in college football.
This is somewhat of a myth. If by that you mean Alabama, then yes that is the best competition. But the rest of the SEC is not that great defensively outside of Florida and LSU. There are some good defenses, but the SEC carries that reputation because of the 2-3 top tier teams and media hype. The Big Ten has 4 teams in the top 11 in total defense and the ACC has 3. The SEC has 2. Yet you never hear the hype about those defenses. Anyway....

Bridgewater takes better care of the ball than Manziel. Manziel has great improvisation, but running around and chucking the ball up to 1 WR and 3 DB's rarely works in the NFL. I've also seen a lot of QB's in this system put up insane numbers and never do a thing in the NFL. Manziel will have to learn a pro system with pro reads and progressions. That takes time. The NFL doesn't have any one-read then scramble offenses. Bridgewater has a huge head-up on him as far as experience in a pro-style offense goes.

Also, the majority of Manziel's effectiveness is based on his play out of the pocket. Just look at what NFL teams have done to Robert Griffin this year. They keep him in the pocket and make him beat them with his arm. They are dedicated to limiting his dual-threat ability. He's also been injured 4-5 times in a season and a half. Manziel is tough, but if he runs around like that in the NFL he won't last 3 seasons. His improv style won't be nearly that effective in the NFL and he won't have a guy like Mike Evans to bail him out. Evans is one of the best players in college football IMO. He is just an outright mismatch on 99% of the DB's he goes up against.

Bridgewater stands in the pocket and destroys everyone he plays against. He ripped apart a top 5 defense last year in Florida and rookie Raven Safety Matt Elam said he was the best QB they faced all season (UF played against Manziel, Tyler Bray, Aaron Murray, and E.J. Manuel). He is mobile enough to escape pressure and keep plays alive, but he's mobile like Andrew Luck not Robert Griffin. He's a natural pocket passer despite his athleticism.
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Old 11-11-2013   #277
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

Throw in another vote for Manziel, but that's me.

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He had some pressure from LSU, was even sacked but for the most he did a good job avoiding the pressure. He has a presence.
As much as it pains me to say it, LSU's sole sack came from an unblocked defender on a naked boot. McCarron also attempted only four passes greater than 20 yards but completed none of them; in addition, the only third down they completed (when put in that position) that was longer than 3rd-and-4 was a 3rd-and-8 with a penalty.

I think McCarron gets way too much credit for not losing games on a team that plays safe football and is stacked with talent. Maybe he'll turn into Tom Brady but nothing tells me he should be taken higher than, say, Murray.

Another interesting stat from Saturday's game? Lamin Barrow, an LSU linebacker, had 11 tackles during the game but only three were solo. Mosley had 12, of which 7 were solo.
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Old 11-11-2013   #278
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Throw in another vote for Manziel, but that's me.



As much as it pains me to say it, LSU's sole sack came from an unblocked defender on a naked boot. McCarron also attempted only four passes greater than 20 yards but completed none of them; in addition, the only third down they completed (when put in that position) that was longer than 3rd-and-4 was a 3rd-and-8 with a penalty.
Sounds like a guy who's currently sitting on the Texans bench ....
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Old 11-11-2013   #279
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

Yeah, except one is a veteran with an injury history and the other is still in college.
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Old 11-11-2013   #280
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
This is somewhat of a myth. If by that you mean Alabama, then yes that is the best competition. But the rest of the SEC is not that great defensively outside of Florida and LSU. There are some good defenses, but the SEC carries that reputation because of the 2-3 top tier teams and media hype. The Big Ten has 4 teams in the top 11 in total defense and the ACC has 3. The SEC has 2. Yet you never hear the hype about those defenses. Anyway....

Bridgewater takes better care of the ball than Manziel. Manziel has great improvisation, but running around and chucking the ball up to 1 WR and 3 DB's rarely works in the NFL. I've also seen a lot of QB's in this system put up insane numbers and never do a thing in the NFL. Manziel will have to learn a pro system with pro reads and progressions. That takes time. The NFL doesn't have any one-read then scramble offenses. Bridgewater has a huge head-up on him as far as experience in a pro-style offense goes.

Also, the majority of Manziel's effectiveness is based on his play out of the pocket. Just look at what NFL teams have done to Robert Griffin this year. They keep him in the pocket and make him beat them with his arm. They are dedicated to limiting his dual-threat ability. He's also been injured 4-5 times in a season and a half. Manziel is tough, but if he runs around like that in the NFL he won't last 3 seasons. His improv style won't be nearly that effective in the NFL and he won't have a guy like Mike Evans to bail him out. Evans is one of the best players in college football IMO. He is just an outright mismatch on 99% of the DB's he goes up against.

Bridgewater stands in the pocket and destroys everyone he plays against. He ripped apart a top 5 defense last year in Florida and rookie Raven Safety Matt Elam said he was the best QB they faced all season (UF played against Manziel, Tyler Bray, Aaron Murray, and E.J. Manuel). He is mobile enough to escape pressure and keep plays alive, but he's mobile like Andrew Luck not Robert Griffin. He's a natural pocket passer despite his athleticism.
Bold 1: You're right, but I'm willing to excuse that for the same reason that Matt Stafford chucks it up in double coverage to Megatron. If you know your guy or no one is going to come up with it, you go for it.

Bold 2: Fully agree.

Bold 3: Manziel's been throwing some lasers of late. He's good in the pocket and can extend plays. He also is much smarter about contact and only really goes for the hits on the goal line, but he needs to not do that in the NFL. He's not Cam Newton.

Bold 4: Yep, and if it's a habit in the pros it's going to make him bad. However, Manziel has been getting his other WRs involved too. Malcome Kennedy is talented but Manziel makes no names like Travis Labhart look good. Derel Walker catches his fair share of TDs but I would like to say that three interceptions are direct results of Derel Walker's hands tipping the balls (i.e. not on Manziel).


The problem with drafting Manziel is that it's basically a gigantic boom/bust gamble, and you don't want to do that if you're the Texans, I think.
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