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Old 11-06-2013   #61
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
AJ only needs 9 more to catch up with HOF Art Monk.
Give him another year, and it is quite feasible.
Art Monk played in a different era, one that was not pass happy. It is a fallacy to compare stats from different eras, especially the current one where rules obviously favor offense.

When you have a guy like Nick Foles tying 40+ year old records with 7 touchdowns in a game, it is rather obvious that today's game is fundamentally different. Heck, receivers aren't even scared to go across the middle anymore like the old days. That is a foundational shift in the game and what defenses are allowed (and not allowed) to do now.

As far as AJ in the HoF, I'd like it as a Texans fan. However, if you study trends with Hall of Fame voting, it is clear that voters are slow to put receivers in. Cris Carter waited through six years of voting before finally getting the vote. Other WRs like Andre Reed (7 time finalist) and Tim Brown (4 time finalist) continue to wait. Then we still have Marvin Harrison coming up for eligibility, and all signs point to a long wait for him, as well. (In the not too distant future - before AJ retires probably - we have Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Terrell Owens, and Randy Moss, among others).

AJ is going to have to wait to get in, no doubt about it. This first ballot HoF talk is nice, but it's not realistic based on HoF voting history.
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Old 11-06-2013   #62
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Art Monk played in a different era, one that was not pass happy. It is a fallacy to compare stats from different eras, especially the current one where rules obviously favor offense.

When you have a guy like Nick Foles tying 40+ year old records with 7 touchdowns in a game, it is rather obvious that today's game is fundamentally different. Heck, receivers aren't even scared to go across the middle anymore like the old days. That is a foundational shift in the game and what defenses are allowed (and not allowed) to do now.

As far as AJ in the HoF, I'd like it as a Texans fan. However, if you study trends with Hall of Fame voting, it is clear that voters are slow to put receivers in. Cris Carter waited through six years of voting before finally getting the vote. Other WRs like Andre Reed (7 time finalist) and Tim Brown (4 time finalist) continue to wait. Then we still have Marvin Harrison coming up for eligibility, and all signs point to a long wait for him, as well. (In the not too distant future - before AJ retires probably - we have Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Terrell Owens, and Randy Moss, among others).

AJ is going to have to wait to get in, no doubt about it. This first ballot HoF talk is nice, but it's not realistic based on HoF voting history.
With the new rules , I think the teams who play a wide open passing game and counter punch with the run are best . I think that's one of the Texans downfalls is playing like a lead is safe . That and missed FGs , pick 6s , elbows to the back of the head , hitting the QB out of bounds , and so on .
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Old 11-06-2013   #63
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Art Monk played in a different era, one that was not pass happy. It is a fallacy to compare stats from different eras, especially the current one where rules obviously favor offense.

When you have a guy like Nick Foles tying 40+ year old records with 7 touchdowns in a game, it is rather obvious that today's game is fundamentally different. Heck, receivers aren't even scared to go across the middle anymore like the old days. That is a foundational shift in the game and what defenses are allowed (and not allowed) to do now.

As far as AJ in the HoF, I'd like it as a Texans fan. However, if you study trends with Hall of Fame voting, it is clear that voters are slow to put receivers in. Cris Carter waited through six years of voting before finally getting the vote. Other WRs like Andre Reed (7 time finalist) and Tim Brown (4 time finalist) continue to wait. Then we still have Marvin Harrison coming up for eligibility, and all signs point to a long wait for him, as well. (In the not too distant future - before AJ retires probably - we have Isaac Bruce, Torry Holt, Terrell Owens, and Randy Moss, among others).

AJ is going to have to wait to get in, no doubt about it. This first ballot HoF talk is nice, but it's not realistic based on HoF voting history.
I don't care about first ballot, as long as AJ gets in, I'm happy.
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Old 11-06-2013   #64
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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I don't care about first ballot, as long as AJ gets in, I'm happy.
Well I certainly agree. We are just going to have to be very patient about the process, all things considered. It honestly could be a very long wait.
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Old 11-06-2013   #65
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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Well I certainly agree. We are just going to have to be very patient about the process, all things considered. It honestly could be a very long wait.
Your concerns are real however I think there are additional factors to Dre's benefit. First off, I know off the field stuff is not supposed to count, but it does - ask Cris Carter. TO and Moss will suffer from this. They happen to illustrate the 2nd point as well, several of the folks you mention never led the league in receiving. A related consideration is the factor of best v. really good. Many of them were never considered the best in the game for even a single season. Holt and Bruce will be tagged by some as system guys. I think you are giving too much credit to changes in the game also - Holt, Bruce, TO, Harrison, Moss didn't play in a wildly divergent era. In fact they overlap.

At the end of the day, AJ might be 2nd on the all time receiving list. Hesitancy to put too many WRs in may lead to AJ pushing someone else down the list rather than the reverse.Also, I have slammed McLain often enough but his presence is to AJs advantage. He will make sure the voters know he accomplished what he did with Carr and the stark change to Schaub (and hopefully a sharp change on TDs with Case).

I haven't looked but how many of the folks you mentioned had their careers without a single season with a QB who straight up got voted to the Pro Bowl and certainly not an All Pro?
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Old 11-06-2013   #66
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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Your concerns are real however I think there are additional factors to Dre's benefit. First off, I know off the field stuff is not supposed to count, but it does - ask Cris Carter. TO and Moss will suffer from this. They happen to illustrate the 2nd point as well, several of the folks you mention never led the league in receiving. A related consideration is the factor of best v. really good. Many of them were never considered the best in the game for even a single season. Holt and Bruce will be tagged by some as system guys. I think you are giving too much credit to changes in the game also - Holt, Bruce, TO, Harrison, Moss didn't play in a wildly divergent era. In fact they overlap.

At the end of the day, AJ might be 2nd on the all time receiving list. Hesitancy to put too many WRs in may lead to AJ pushing someone else down the list rather than the reverse.Also, I have slammed McLain often enough but his presence is to AJs advantage. He will make sure the voters know he accomplished what he did with Carr and the stark change to Schaub (and hopefully a sharp change on TDs with Case).

I haven't looked but how many of the folks you mentioned had their careers without a single season with a QB who straight up got voted to the Pro Bowl and certainly not an All Pro?
It will help if the Texans can get him a bunch of TDs in the next few years.
15-20 TDs in 3-1/2 years or so will probably do it.
A trip to the SB will certainly help.
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Old 11-06-2013   #67
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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Your concerns are real however I think there are additional factors to Dre's benefit. First off, I know off the field stuff is not supposed to count, but it does - ask Cris Carter. TO and Moss will suffer from this. They happen to illustrate the 2nd point as well, several of the folks you mention never led the league in receiving. A related consideration is the factor of best v. really good. Many of them were never considered the best in the game for even a single season. Holt and Bruce will be tagged by some as system guys. I think you are giving too much credit to changes in the game also - Holt, Bruce, TO, Harrison, Moss didn't play in a wildly divergent era. In fact they overlap.

At the end of the day, AJ might be 2nd on the all time receiving list. Hesitancy to put too many WRs in may lead to AJ pushing someone else down the list rather than the reverse.Also, I have slammed McLain often enough but his presence is to AJs advantage. He will make sure the voters know he accomplished what he did with Carr and the stark change to Schaub (and hopefully a sharp change on TDs with Case).

I haven't looked but how many of the folks you mentioned had their careers without a single season with a QB who straight up got voted to the Pro Bowl and certainly not an All Pro?
Great points, man, and I certainly hope that you are ultimately right with them.

To be honest, a lot of my perspective is reminding myself to be patient with the process as a Texans fan.

I'd be interested in seeing numbers, stats, and comparisons of QBs behind these WRs. Hopefully AJ can leap frog over many of those receivers for the off-the-field reasons you mentioned. He truly epitomizes all the good things that pro athletes can represent in so many ways. I cannot recall even a speeding ticket, much less any black mark on his career or reputation (even the fight with Finnegan was pretty much universally applauded).
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Old 11-06-2013   #68
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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I haven't looked but how many of the folks you mentioned had their careers without a single season with a QB who straight up got voted to the Pro Bowl and certainly not an All Pro?
I doubt there are any who played with a QB that never made the Pro Bowl or had a good year. Even Matt Schaub made a couple Pro Bowls. But to the heart of your question, Largent comes to mind.

EDIT - Looks like Dave Krieg never made a Pro Bowl. He never led the league in passing yardage or TDs, but did lead in INTs and fumbles a couple times each. Jim Zorn also quarterbacked for some of Largent's career and was equally unimpressive. So maybe Largent is the best example. But he had 100 TDs in 14 years. AJ has 59 through 10.5 games.
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Old 11-06-2013   #69
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

I don't think you can put Schaub's unwillingness to let 'dre make a play all on him. The QB is an extension of the HC especially in our offense. He isn't allowed to make reads or adjust. He is supposed to run the play that is called and if we execute it will be a positive play. At least that's the theory. I don't believe Kubiak wanted Schaub to take those chances. He is conservative and would rather get the sure 3 (until this season at least) than possibly turn the ball over. Schaub ran Kubiak's offense. He wasn't a field general. He's was a middle manager.

Kubiak feels the pressure. He knows his job is on the line and he is taking the handcuffs off the offense for Keenum. He's giving him liberties that he hasn't given the other QBs recently. That being said, I think Keenum is a better QB at this point anyways regardless of what he is allowed to do. Schaub's skills (he did have some) have eroded quickly and I think the mistakes have effected his psyche as well.

I guess I should at least weigh in on the actual point of the thread now. Andre has still had a great career. I think him playing those years under Capers hurt more than the last few years. WR aren't going to get the majority of red zone looks in this offense. He still is on pace to be one of the top WR in receptions and yards and he's set records for back to back 1,500 yard seasons. He's done everything but score TDs and win the SB. I think QBs should be judged on SB wins more than WRs. Depending on what kind of offense or scheme a great WR can be nothing more than a decoy. I think voters know that he was one of the best at his position over the previous decade. His off the field antics won't hurt him and he's always been a professional (the black Irishman notwithstanding) on the field. He's done enough, but maybe a couple of good years with a different scheme wouldn't hurt.
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Old 11-06-2013   #70
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

I think we witnessed a mixture of things against Indy.

Firstly, Case made some great throws - AJ kept stride and barely had to make an effort to get his TD catches. I've not seen as many long balls thrown as well to him to my memory.

Secondly, I think AJ may have (wrongly) benefited from defenses not taking him as seriously as a threat as they would have 3/4 years ago. Whilst I'm not in a position to relay specifics (I'm far too into the game to make rational analysis afterwards), Andre was far more productive in the first half, and in the second went missing. I'm not sure what changes Indy made in coverage, but I presume they focused on shutting him down.

Thirdly, the first TD was a great run route, but any team who gives up a TD like that is going to be pissed with the coverage. AJ should never have that much space around him on a football field.

I tihnk we'll maybe see a levelling out of AJ's production in the upcoming weeks - however I do like the third TD. Schaub seemed to always revert to throwing to the tight end, where, although the ball was well thrown and it was a relatively easy catch, Case gave AJ a chance to make a play, and to quote someone on this board (I forgot who) he took what he wanted, rather than what the defense were offering him.
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Old 11-06-2013   #71
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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But Keenum was the starter last game.

So, nobody ever heard Schaub's name being chanted ever?

Do we have the people's choice at QB finally?
That would be awesome if Keenum can keep up his good plays so that the whole fan base (or the vast majority) can rally behind the team more cohesively.
It's good for the morale of the team, no matter who's the HC.
This Keenum enthusiam will last about one or two more games; or more specifically, one or two more losses. Unless we start a winning streak, they will grow weary of Case too. And start calling for Johnny Football (just to pull a name from the air) to be drafted with our first pick.

The Case Keenum version of the Texans still suffers - as did the Matt Schaub version - from only playing well for 30 out of 60 minutes. Until he started throwing TDs to the other team, as least Schaub used the "good 30" to pull out some wins. Feel good stories only take you so far.

just sayin'...
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Old 11-06-2013   #72
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

The problem AJ will have is that they will discount the TD passes he catches from Case because Case is a system QB, isn't tall enough, doesn't have a strong arm and played in a weak college conference. They will reason that because Lee and SS said Case isn't 'all that' the TD catches from Case are just because of the 'system' and don't count like other QB to WR tandems.

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Old 11-06-2013   #73
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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This Keenum enthusiam will last about one or two more games; or more specifically, one or two more losses. Unless we start a winning streak, they will grow weary of Case too. And start calling for Johnny Football (just to pull a name from the air) to be drafted with our first pick.

The Case Keenum version of the Texans still suffers - as did the Matt Schaub version - from only playing well for 30 out of 60 minutes. Until he started throwing TDs to the other team, as least Schaub used the "good 30" to pull out some wins. Feel good stories only take you so far.

just sayin'...
In defense of Keenum, our defense gave up 27 points on Sunday. When Schaub was playing our defense gave up about 28 PPG, however about 10 ppg was a direct result of defensive/special teams scores. So if the defense only gave up the 18 ppg they were actually giving up in the first 7 games, we win this easily. That does even take into consideration 3 missed FG and the 4th and 1 failed conversion. So the opportunities were there, but I don't believe anyone can honestly blame QB play as the reason for this loss.
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Old 11-06-2013   #74
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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I doubt there are any who played with a QB that never made the Pro Bowl or had a good year. Even Matt Schaub made a couple Pro Bowls. But to the heart of your question, Largent comes to mind.

EDIT - Looks like Dave Krieg never made a Pro Bowl. He never led the league in passing yardage or TDs, but did lead in INTs and fumbles a couple times each. Jim Zorn also quarterbacked for some of Largent's career and was equally unimpressive. So maybe Largent is the best example. But he had 100 TDs in 14 years. AJ has 59 through 10.5 games.
On pro bowls I meant voted in to be one of the guys who goes without someone being injured or refusing to go. Schaub has none on that basis.

Krieg was a 3 time pro bowler ('84, '88 and '89) according to pro-football-reference.

I was really referring to those AJ may come up against but Largent is a good argument for him. Largent is already in the hall. He led the league in receiving twice. He did not have spectacular QB play. At this point in his career he had 80 TD's.

Compare TO. Never led the league. 3 seasons with pro bowler and hall member Steve Young, 3 seasons when Garcia went to the pro bowl, 1 season with McNabb in the pro bowl and 2 with Romo. 9 seasons total. That's a big leg up.
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Old 11-06-2013   #75
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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I don't think you can put Schaub's unwillingness to let 'dre make a play all on him. The QB is an extension of the HC especially in our offense. He isn't allowed to make reads or adjust. He is supposed to run the play that is called and if we execute it will be a positive play. At least that's the theory. I don't believe Kubiak wanted Schaub to take those chances. He is conservative and would rather get the sure 3 (until this season at least) than possibly turn the ball over. Schaub ran Kubiak's offense. He wasn't a field general. He's was a middle manager.

Kubiak feels the pressure. He knows his job is on the line and he is taking the handcuffs off the offense for Keenum. He's giving him liberties that he hasn't given the other QBs recently. That being said, I think Keenum is a better QB at this point anyways regardless of what he is allowed to do. Schaub's skills (he did have some) have eroded quickly and I think the mistakes have effected his psyche as well.

I guess I should at least weigh in on the actual point of the thread now. Andre has still had a great career. I think him playing those years under Capers hurt more than the last few years. WR aren't going to get the majority of red zone looks in this offense. He still is on pace to be one of the top WR in receptions and yards and he's set records for back to back 1,500 yard seasons. He's done everything but score TDs and win the SB. I think QBs should be judged on SB wins more than WRs. Depending on what kind of offense or scheme a great WR can be nothing more than a decoy. I think voters know that he was one of the best at his position over the previous decade. His off the field antics won't hurt him and he's always been a professional (the black Irishman notwithstanding) on the field. He's done enough, but maybe a couple of good years with a different scheme wouldn't hurt.
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I wasn’t surprised that it got to me, I was surprised he threw it,” Johnson said. “Normally, when we are in that situation, the quarterback wouldn’t throw the ball but I think Case just throws it differently, like ‘I like my guy better than that guy.’ He just gave me a chance and I was able to go get it.
That should be more than enough to disspell the idea that Kubiak was limiting where the QB could throw.

I've been a big supporter of the idea that maybe Kubiak was handcuffing Schaub, but this admission from AJ completely opened my eyes. Schaub is limiting this offense, not Kubiak. Schaub will take the safe route rather than throwing the dice, if given the choice. Schaub is also less than capable of making off schedule plays if he has to scramble or is pressured.
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Old 11-07-2013   #76
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

Another thing i noticed was Keenum shouting things to the O-Line and WR's, something we ratrely see Schaub do. I think Keenums ability to read the defense allows him to do such. So i think that Schaub was limited in what he did due to his own ability, not because Kubiak wouldnt let him.

Just like the fake spike, something we have never seen from Schaub before, and AJ said it was an option for them to do such.

Only thing i put on coaching is the play calling in the second half when we take or foot off the gas, i was watching Bill B of the patriots, they were winning by 20+ and he told his guys hey we are going to score some more. We need that mentality, of course who knows how the game would of been called had Kubiak not went down at half time. Cause it seems to me that Kubiak has more faith in Case than he did in Schaub and the play calls have seemed far more aggressive.
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Old 11-07-2013   #77
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

I think something that will help AJ get in the HOF will in fact be that he'll be the first Houston Texan worthy of inclusion. There won't be anybody from this team in the HOF before AJ and possibly no one for a good long time after AJ. He'll get additional consideration simply because he's the first Texan to merit it.

I know that doesn't make a ton of sense to some people but I think it will be a factor among the people casting ballots. They'll look at him, consider him worthy (if not necessarily a first ballot guy) and then take into account the team he played for (and who threw to him during those years) and then give him the nod. Call it the sympathy vote if you want but that will put him first ballot.
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Old 11-07-2013   #78
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
I think something that will help AJ get in the HOF will in fact be that he'll be the first Houston Texan worthy of inclusion. There won't be anybody from this team in the HOF before AJ and possibly no one for a good long time after AJ. He'll get additional consideration simply because he's the first Texan to merit it.

I know that doesn't make a ton of sense to some people but I think it will be a factor among the people casting ballots. They'll look at him, consider him worthy (if not necessarily a first ballot guy) and then take into account the team he played for (and who threw to him during those years) and then give him the nod. Call it the sympathy vote if you want but that will put him first ballot.
Good points.
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Old 11-07-2013   #79
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
I think something that will help AJ get in the HOF will in fact be that he'll be the first Houston Texan worthy of inclusion. There won't be anybody from this team in the HOF before AJ and possibly no one for a good long time after AJ. He'll get additional consideration simply because he's the first Texan to merit it.

I know that doesn't make a ton of sense to some people but I think it will be a factor among the people casting ballots. They'll look at him, consider him worthy (if not necessarily a first ballot guy) and then take into account the team he played for (and who threw to him during those years) and then give him the nod. Call it the sympathy vote if you want but that will put him first ballot.
I'm a bit more optimistic about AJ's chances after reading your's and 'cak's perspectives. The HoF acts like off-the-field does not make a difference, but voters are human and obviously the take into account big picture stuff.

I think his consistently elite talent and work ethic in the face of an expansion franchise and not-elite QBs for his whole career, along with his body of work and obviously great reputation could combine to get him in quicker, and maybe even leap frog over some of the other receivers on the list.
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Old 11-07-2013   #80
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Default Re: Dre's Recent TD Success - Opinions Wanted

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I'm a bit more optimistic about AJ's chances after reading your's and 'cak's perspectives. The HoF acts like off-the-field does not make a difference, but voters are human and obviously the take into account big picture stuff.

I think his consistently elite talent and work ethic in the face of an expansion franchise and not-elite QBs for his whole career, along with his body of work and obviously great reputation could combine to get him in quicker, and maybe even leap frog over some of the other receivers on the list.
Especially if he catches double digit TDs a couple times in the upcoming years.
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