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Old 11-05-2013   #161
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by chicagotexan2 View Post
What keeps coming to mind is the Gilbert arenas and Jabaris crittenton incident. Two idiots take an idiotic beef to new lows. I don't see Martin escalating a fight to the point where guns are drawn but a stupid animal like incognito probably would. Fighting incognito or smacking him in the mouth would not resolve any issues with that sack of schit.


I do believe Martin and his family are highly educated, more so when compared to the avg nfl pro and their family. It wouldnt shock me in the least if Martin was raised not to fight back physically
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Old 11-05-2013   #162
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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New York Giants safety Antrel Rolle apparently is among those who blame Jonathan Martin, at least in part, for the incidents that led to the offensive lineman leaving the Miami Dolphins.

Speaking on his weekly WFAN radio appearance in New York on Tuesday, Rolle made it clear that he believed Richie Incognito, who has been suspended indefinitely for conduct detrimental to the team, to be in the wrong for his alleged harassment of Martin.

But Rolle also indicated a belief that Martin could have done more to prevent himself from being bullied.

"Was Richie Incognito wrong? Absolutely," Rolle told the radio station. "But I think the other guy is just as much to blame as Richie, because he allowed it to happen.

"At this level, you're a man. You're not a little boy. You're not a freshman in college. You're a man."

Multiple sources confirmed to ESPN on Monday that Incognito used racial epithets and profane language toward Martin on multiple occasions.

Sources also say Martin received a series of voice mail messages and texts that included derogatory terms referring to the female anatomy and sexual orientation.

The NFL is investigating the situation while Incognito is suspended and Martin takes a leave of absence. But there is some sense in NFL player circles that locker rooms should be self-policed, and Rolle's sentiments echo that.

"I think everything has its limits," Rolle said. "So there's no way that another man is going to make me pay for something that I choose not to pay for.

"So, Richie Incognito, is he wrong? Absolutely. But I think the other guy is just as much to blame. Hopefully he's able to bounce back and recover from all that has happened and take awareness of, you know, man, you're a grown-ass man. You need to stand up for yourself. Hazing is one thing. Bullying is another."







This mentality is part of them problem
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Old 11-05-2013   #163
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by houstonspartan View Post
According to people on this board, they were just trying to "toughen him up..."
He had to pay that much to his teammates because he didn't show up for OTa's and that was the way his teammates decided to punish Martin. Is that wrong? Of course it is.
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Old 11-05-2013   #164
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
He had to pay that much to his teammates because he didn't show up for OTa's and that was the way his teammates decided to punish Martin. Is that wrong? Of course it is.


I wasnt aware the players were required to make payments to others when they missed otas


what was the cause of the phins defensive rookie who got stuck with a 30k tab? Are you making up otas for that one too?
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Old 11-05-2013   #165
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by 2012Champs View Post
This mentality is part of them problem
Sometimes I think the only people qualified to speak on this are ones that have been bullied. They know and can relate to the dark place Martin was in. That said, I don't think he was insensitive.
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Old 11-05-2013   #166
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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"So, Richie Incognito, is he wrong? Absolutely. But I think the other guy is just as much to blame."
Shouldn't have worn that short skirt!

Oh wait, wrong topic.

Blaming the victim just perpetuates the stupidity.

So where is the line in the sand to stand up for yourself? What if fist fighting Incognito changes nothing? Then what? Bring a knife? Shoot the bastard? What do you do to get a sociopath to leave you alone short of maiming or killing him?
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Old 11-05-2013   #167
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Shouldn't have worn that short skirt!

Oh wait, wrong topic.

Blaming the victim just perpetuates the stupidity.

So where is the line in the sand to stand up for yourself? What if fist fighting Incognito changes nothing? Then what? Bring a knife? Shoot the bastard? What do you do to get a sociopath to leave you alone short of maiming or killing him?
His whole argument in regards to "you're not a freshman in college anymore, you're a grown ass man," is backwards. Maybe when you are younger, you will have a higher chance of actually fighting back. When you are older, you are more mature and understand that it accomplishes nothing to fight a guy like Incognito.

It's pure stupidity and immaturity by Antrel Rolle to put any blame on Martin.
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Old 11-05-2013   #168
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Shouldn't have worn that short skirt!

Oh wait, wrong topic.

Blaming the victim just perpetuates the stupidity.

So where is the line in the sand to stand up for yourself? What if fist fighting Incognito changes nothing? Then what? Bring a knife? Shoot the bastard? What do you do to get a sociopath to leave you alone short of maiming or killing him?
I think a mild bully you hit back and it's over . Richie is more like Dracula where you would have to put a stake in him . That's why the Dolphins have been bad . It's more about taking rookies manhood or visa card than it is about building a team .

I wonder what Jake Long thinks about it ?
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Old 11-05-2013   #169
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by chicagotexan2 View Post
What keeps coming to mind is the Gilbert arenas and Jabaris crittenton incident. Two idiots take an idiotic beef to new lows. I don't see Martin escalating a fight to the point where guns are drawn but a stupid animal like incognito probably would. Fighting incognito or smacking him in the mouth would not resolve any issues with that sack of schit.
You're right, and honestly I make a ton of bad decisions all the time. I applaud Martin for his courage to walk away. I just couldn't do it though.

On another note Antrell Rolle is an idiot. Guys like that don't even need to be given a platform to speak.
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Old 11-06-2013   #170
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by houstonspartan View Post
According to people on this board, they were just trying to "toughen him up..."
There's a story on PFT right now about the Dolphins coaches wanting Incognito to toughen Martin up.

So it looks like my deductive reasoning may have been correct.
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Old 11-06-2013   #171
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

Basically, this is Antonio Smith's fault. For missing Incognito's skull with his helmet.
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Old 11-06-2013   #172
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

Sounds like Incognito's people leaked that to take the Dolphins down with him.
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Old 11-06-2013   #173
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

Didn't read the whole thread, just wanted to put my two cents in.

1) I agree with anyone who says a grown man shouldn't be the victim of bullying. Especially not one of the bigger guys on an NFL football team that you expect a high level of toughness from.

2) $15,000.... that's not hazing. That's criminal & I'm surprised Incognito isn't behind bars right now.
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Old 11-06-2013   #174
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
On another note Antrell Rolle is an idiot. Guys like that don't even need to be given a platform to speak.
So you don't like his opinion on this situation, and therefor you think his opportunity to express his opinion should be revoked, right ?
Hey, I suspect it's MOL the opinion of the majority of NFL players. Bet if you'd ask what another hard-azz NFL CB like the Texans Kareem Jackson thinks you'd get the same kinda comments.
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Old 11-06-2013   #175
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Denver Broncos defensive tackle Terrance Knighton thinks Martin broke the code of the locker room by leaving it.

"Everybody in the NFL knows that when you're a young guy and when you're with the O-line you've got it the hardest," Knighton says. "I mean, that's been going on for a while. ... I don't know where they crossed the line at; maybe (Incognito) said something personal.

"I feel like, as players, when it is player-to-player, it can be handled as players. It can be addressed. I don't think (Martin) should have gone outside the team and expressed how things are going in the locker room."
*****
That's not only a player perspective. Duke professor of sports psychology and sports ethics Greg Dale thinks it is a male perspective.

"I was teaching my class at Duke to a group of undergrads, and we were talking about this very thing in class," Dale says. "And the comments from several of the young men were, 'Well, he really needed to man up. He's a man, and you've got to handle that on your own. He shouldn't have walked away.' And that's the core of the problem right there."
*****
Rich Gannon, a former league MVP, says rookies are often asked to foot the bill for restaurant meals while veterans order bottles of rare champagne and ring up cumulative tabs of $30,000 to $40,000, a high-priced version of the playground bully who steals your lunch money.
"Then I went to Kansas City where I didn't see any of it," he says. "Marty Schottenheimer created a great situation where older guys mentored younger guys. Then I went out to Oakland, and I almost got sick to my stomach at how bad it was."
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http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...gnito/3449621/
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Gannon's remarks are particular instructive as he points out the value of strong leadership, be it from a HC like Marty Schottenheimer or a leader on the field like Peyton Manning.
Hey if it gets racial, it's definitely over the line. And if it's illegal, well it's illegal. Short of that, where's the line ? You tell me ?
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Old 11-06-2013   #176
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...gnito/3449621/
*****
Gannon's remarks are particular instructive as he points out the value of strong leadership, be it from a HC like Marty Schottenheimer or a leader on the field like Peyton Manning.
Hey if it gets racial, it's definitely over the line. And if it's illegal, well it's illegal. Short of that, where's the line ? You tell me ?

The line is where your employer/the law says it it. It's just the way it is, this is how it's always been, it's a football thing or male thing is just an excuse for poor behavior. The nfl and it's teams are employers and have to afford some protection to its employees and while we see it as a game it's not that simple
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Old 11-06-2013   #177
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
You're right, and honestly I make a ton of bad decisions all the time. I applaud Martin for his courage to walk away. I just couldn't do it though.

On another note Antrell Rolle is an idiot. Guys like that don't even need to be given a platform to speak.
Im with you in that I can say Martin did the right thing, but I don't think I'd be able to show the same level of restraint. And that decision would cost me my job. And at the end og the day Incognito would still win.
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Old 11-06-2013   #178
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by 2012Champs View Post
The line is where your employer/the law says it it. It's just the way it is, this is how it's always been, it's a football thing or male thing is just an excuse for poor behavior. The nfl and it's teams are employers and have to afford some protection to its employees and while we see it as a game it's not that simple
The law is a constant marker/line for behavior, but apparently not so the employer as Gannon points out here the disparity between a KC and an Oakland.
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Old 11-06-2013   #179
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by silvrhand View Post
- If Martin bypassed and just left the team without telling anyone, probably not the right thing to do.
why not?

I keep seeing this sentiment pop up and to de-contextualize it this way seems to miss the importance of power and its structure in the situation. The nature of the abuse/harassment takes place with a lot of other complicit bodies and a power structure in a locker room. The clout that Incognito (allegedly) had speaks volumes about how that power dynamic played out.

All of this armchair quarterbacking, er.... offensive tackling (?) after the fact about what he should or should not have done seems beside that point.

Martin inverted the power dynamic.

All of the "He shoulda wooped that guy" is about one thing, right? Turning the tables on the bully. Challenging that power hierarchy.

You know what else does that? And does it even better? Doing what Martin did. Let's say he stands up to him - he risks getting his butt kicked and the same thing just continues in perpetuity. Or until Incognito is gone or wears out his welcome. Again.

Let's say Martin wins. Does that stop Incognito? Doubtful. Maybe I'm psychoanalyzing here, but going with his history, I think it's a reasonable conclusion.

Doing it this way, the power dynamic is completely changed in a more effective and permanent way. It's shifted. I know Martin is a well read dude. Maybe he was reading Sun Tzu or Mind**** Your Enemies For Dummies. I don't know.

BUt I do know that the cretin that occupied the top of the power structure is now having to (in his words) "weather the storm." That doesn't happen if Martin fights him, win, lose, or draw.

And Martin risked a lot by taking the tact he did. I think calling him a "coward" or trying to depict this as "walking away" is an oversimplification and ignores the gravity in the choice that he made. (edit: this is a general comment, silvr - not directed at you. Actually, that goes for a bit of this post, using yours as a sort of launching point rather than a direct response/contradiction)

So far it looks to me like he did the "right" thing in a lot of ways. Incognito loses power in more than an interim basis. We have a broader social discussion of this type of issue - the discussion has transcended the NFL and has even been mentioned in the context of schools. Martin challenges and complicates (and potentially reverses, in some ways) his portrayal as simply victim and becomes partly advocate.

I have trouble faulting Martin for any of his decisions and his choice has changed the dynamics of the power relationship in a way that wouldn't have been remotely possible in the locker room itself.
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Old 11-06-2013   #180
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
The law is a constant marker/line for behavior, but apparently not so the employer as Gannon points out here the disparity between a KC and an Oakland.


Thanks for pointing out the obvious in my post. Are KC and Oakland the same employer?
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