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Old 11-05-2013   #141
Double Barrel
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
It worked for the Colts...
You mean the same Colts that had an NFL Championship trophy in 2006, two Super Bowl appearances, and 9 straight playoff seasons from 2002-2010? The same team that fell apart when their Hall of Fame QB went down?

C'mon, man, that's a specious argument at best.

Regardless of what happens this season, McNair is not going to fire Kubiak. Especially now after the medical emergency.

People are constantly talking about the Texans meltdown going back to last season. So the logic is that last season's performance can directly impact the next season.

So let's reverse that logic: wouldn't it be best for the team to finish strong this season so there is positive momentum going into the off-season?

I think sending a message for the team to blatantly suck will send the wrong vibe into off-season. It's a defeatist attitude, and there is certainly no guarantees about draft picks.

And remember the "Suck for Luck" mentality was from fans, not the team.

Quote:
"I've done this for 13 years," Saturday said, per Terry McCormick. "I'll steal a Robert Mathis quote, 'I ain't sucking for anybody.' That's the reality of it. Robert said it best. I'm out there every week trying to win games. I don't care about all the rest of it."

Source: Why 'Suck for Luck' Sucks
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Old 11-05-2013   #142
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Pretty much. Where exactly do you think this team is going this year? 8-8? Is that a successful season to you? Are people really ready to go back to the early years of Kubiak when we were so close to the playoffs, but just not quite good enough to make it? Cause that's what this team is right now, but I think it's pretty clear the coaching and talent evaluations are severely inadequate. When a 3rd string UDFA is playing head and shoulders above your 14 million dollar QB, something is seriously wrong. Can you imagine what this team would be like if we had put some resources into finding a QB years ago instead of plodding along with Schaub? It's pathetic we have been stuck with this for so long. It's time to cut the cord and clean house, get a fresh start with a new coach and GM.
This post is exactly how I feel. Kudos to you sir.
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Old 11-05-2013   #143
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Pretty much. Where exactly do you think this team is going this year? 8-8? Is that a successful season to you? Are people really ready to go back to the early years of Kubiak when we were so close to the playoffs, but just not quite good enough to make it? Cause that's what this team is right now, but I think it's pretty clear the coaching and talent evaluations are severely inadequate. When a 3rd string UDFA is playing head and shoulders above your 14 million dollar QB, something is seriously wrong. Can you imagine what this team would be like if we had put some resources into finding a QB years ago instead of plodding along with Schaub? It's pathetic we have been stuck with this for so long. It's time to cut the cord and clean house, get a fresh start with a new coach and GM.
Make changes!!!??? If they change coaches they might have a bad season, be 2-6 halfway through or something. That risk is unacceptable.

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Old 11-05-2013   #144
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Pretty much. Where exactly do you think this team is going this year? 8-8? Is that a successful season to you? Are people really ready to go back to the early years of Kubiak when we were so close to the playoffs, but just not quite good enough to make it? Cause that's what this team is right now, but I think it's pretty clear the coaching and talent evaluations are severely inadequate. When a 3rd string UDFA is playing head and shoulders above your 14 million dollar QB, something is seriously wrong. Can you imagine what this team would be like if we had put some resources into finding a QB years ago instead of plodding along with Schaub? It's pathetic we have been stuck with this for so long. It's time to cut the cord and clean house, get a fresh start with a new coach and GM.
I'm not disagreeing with you as much as I just don't see your "cutting the cord & cleaning house" actually transpiring. They did have the sense to keep around that 3rd string UDFA so some credit is due. The only turnover I see are the ones that killed this season on the field. Cutting Schaub would be revolutionary for this franchise IMO. The worst possible turn of events have killed this season hard for ownership to kill Rick Smith, now Gary Kubiak for all these circumstances still I agree with you that accountability must be the buzz word moving forward, wherever that leads remains to be seen
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Old 11-05-2013   #145
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
You mean the same Colts that had an NFL Championship trophy in 2006, two Super Bowl appearances, and 9 straight playoff seasons from 2002-2010? The same team that fell apart when their Hall of Fame QB went down?

C'mon, man, that's a specious argument at best.

Regardless of what happens this season, McNair is not going to fire Kubiak. Especially now after the medical emergency.

People are constantly talking about the Texans meltdown going back to last season. So the logic is that last season's performance can directly impact the next season.

So let's reverse that logic: wouldn't it be best for the team to finish strong this season so there is positive momentum going into the off-season?


I think sending a message for the team to blatantly suck will send the wrong vibe into off-season. It's a defeatist attitude, and there is certainly no guarantees about draft picks.

And remember the "Suck for Luck" mentality was from fans, not the team.
We've experienced this negative phenomenon the past 2 seasons. It would be nice to see that trend be broken the second half of this season..........and take this novel new found momentum into the next season.
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Old 11-05-2013   #146
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
You mean the same Colts that had an NFL Championship trophy in 2006, two Super Bowl appearances, and 9 straight playoff seasons from 2002-2010? The same team that fell apart when their Hall of Fame QB went down?

C'mon, man, that's a specious argument at best.
What? Are you really going to argue that the Colts were NOT tanking that season? Seriously? They started Kerry Collins, Dan Orlovsky and some other guys I can't remember at QB all year. They clearly were not playing to win until the end of the season when they knew they had the #1 pick locked up. They cleaned house too that offseason, and released many of the players that made them a contender. They clearly were playing for the future and the fans were smart enough to see that. Now look where they are...

So you don't think this team would have a better chance of turning things around next year with a top 5 pick instead of a 10-15 pick? Do you think the Lions would be where they are now without Stafford? How about the Panthers with Cam Newton? Or the Giants without Eli? Or the Chargers without Rivers? I think it makes a big difference, there certainly are great QBs to be had at the top of the draft. Occasionally there are some gems found in later rounds, like Russell Wilson or Brady, but those are so few and far between that it's not likely we would be so lucky. We need the best picks we can get to give our next regime the tools needed for a makeover. If Keenum turns out to be the guy for the future, then we can go defense and get an OLB that can rush the QB. Whatever works, but the higher the pick, the better your chances of finding impact players.


Quote:
Regardless of what happens this season, McNair is not going to fire Kubiak. Especially now after the medical emergency.

People are constantly talking about the Texans meltdown going back to last season. So the logic is that last season's performance can directly impact the next season.

So let's reverse that logic: wouldn't it be best for the team to finish strong this season so there is positive momentum going into the off-season?

I think sending a message for the team to blatantly suck will send the wrong vibe into off-season. It's a defeatist attitude, and there is certainly no guarantees about draft picks.

And remember the "Suck for Luck" mentality was from fans, not the team.
Honestly, this sounds like more of a defeatist attitude to me than what I am advocating. The thought of this regime staying intact after this atrocious season is worse than going 2-14 in my mind. It's time for change we can believe in, whether it be a new GM from Baltimore, or a HC like Sumlin, Shaw or Gruden, I don't really care. This team needs a makeover from the top down.
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Old 11-05-2013   #147
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

The momentum going into next season probably won't matter since most of the starters from this season won't be here next season. We're going to be a whole new team next year player personnel-wise.
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Old 11-05-2013   #148
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by midway View Post
I think they've almost reached the end of their sunshine supply.
Oh, hell no.

The thing about being a sunshiner, which I am, is that you can always look on the bright side of things. The thing about being a hater is that it doesn't matter how good the team does, it always sucks. Some of the haters have admitted that we could win a Super Bowl but it wouldn't matter if it was THIS regime that did it. And if everything they wanted to happen happened, they'd still find something to whine about.

That's a sad way to go through life.

Should Bullock be gone? Yep. Should Marciano be gone? Yep. Does going on a 6 game losing streak suck? Yep.

But I still think this is a good team with a lot of good pieces in place and I haven't given up on this season (or this regime), yet. We might not make the play-offs, we've dug ourselves a hole that only 1 team since 1960 has been able to overcome. But we can still be competitive and we can still play hard and things might break our way.

I think we've hit a jackpot with Keenum. This year might not take us to the promised land but it might be just what we need to get there next year and/or the year after.

OTOH, if we fire all of our coaches and bring in a new staff, I'll get behind this new staff (even if I hate the coaches) and I'll hope for the best.

That's what being a sunshiner is about: keeping a positive mental attitude. Where a hater sees 8 years without a successful season (where success can only be a SB), a sunshiner sees several successful seasons with lots of bright spots and things to look forward to.
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Old 11-05-2013   #149
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Default Texans are bringing in three kickers for a tryout

Source

I hope we don't spend too much money on it to be honest.
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Old 11-05-2013   #150
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Default Re: Texans are bringing in three kickers for a tryout

Thank you Iesvs!
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Old 11-05-2013   #151
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by TheIronDuke View Post
The momentum going into next season probably won't matter since most of the starters from this season won't be here next season. We're going to be a whole new team next year player personnel-wise.
You are projecting your hopes onto the future and are very unlikely to be correct.
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Old 11-05-2013   #152
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
What? Are you really going to argue that the Colts were NOT tanking that season? Seriously? They started Kerry Collins, Dan Orlovsky and some other guys I can't remember at QB all year.
Are you seriously trying to say that a 53 man roster of professional athletes collaborated on losing games?

Seriously?

They lost their HoF QB for the season. That's why they had no viable back up. Manning was on pace to challenge Favre's consecutive start streak. They never needed a back up QB.

This for an offensive system that Manning basically played OC on the field.

You expect some journeyman back up QB to take his place??

You are delusional if you think the players tanked on purpose. Show me any shred of evidence that confirms such an unrealistic take. It is illogical.

BTW, the hole in your little scenario is the win over the Texans. That put their chance at a no. 1 pick in jeopardy.

History undermines your fantasy world:

Quote:
Colts flirt with blowing the Luck pick

Though it would be fitting for a kid named “Luck” to play for a team with a horseshoe on its helmet, the Colts are experiencing an unlikely late-season surge that could cost the team that had presumably locked up the first overall pick a clear shot at their franchise quarterback of the future.

Thanks to an unlikely come-from-behind win over the Texans, the Colts have moved to 2-13 on the season. If the Vikings lose to the Redskins and/or the Rams lose to the Steelers on Saturday, Week 17 would feature not only the resolution of multiple playoff spots and positioning, but also the final resolution of the “Suck for Luck” sweepstakes.

source
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
So you don't think this team would have a better chance of turning things around next year with a top 5 pick instead of a 10-15 pick?
Yeah, that's exactly what I said. I'm not sure when or where I said it, but since you typed it I must have said it.

C'mon, man, you just trolling me for a response? When did you start using straw man tactics to make a point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Honestly, this sounds like more of a defeatist attitude to me than what I am advocating.
Wanting our team to win as many games as they can is more defeatist than hoping they lose out?

We have such fundamentally different perspectives that this conversation is basically pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
The thought of this regime staying intact after this atrocious season is worse than going 2-14 in my mind. It's time for change we can believe in, whether it be a new GM from Baltimore, or a HC like Sumlin, Shaw or Gruden, I don't really care. This team needs a makeover from the top down.
Then you had better pick a new team to follow. Do you honestly think McNair is going to clean house now?

I'd like an overhaul, as well, and agree with your ultimate desire. But, I'm pragmatic enough to understand that I'm powerless to influence it and our owner is going to do what he wants to do.
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Old 11-05-2013   #153
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Pretty much. Where exactly do you think this team is going this year? 8-8? Is that a successful season to you? Are people really ready to go back to the early years of Kubiak when we were so close to the playoffs, but just not quite good enough to make it? Cause that's what this team is right now, but I think it's pretty clear the coaching and talent evaluations are severely inadequate. When a 3rd string UDFA is playing head and shoulders above your 14 million dollar QB, something is seriously wrong. Can you imagine what this team would be like if we had put some resources into finding a QB years ago instead of plodding along with Schaub? It's pathetic we have been stuck with this for so long. It's time to cut the cord and clean house, get a fresh start with a new coach and GM.
So you're saying that an 8-8 finish at this point would be a failure to you? That would make the Texans 6-4 after benching Schaub and by my estimation 6-2 after sending Bullock to the house (I know, it's not a done deal yet but I'd take Racker or Graham over Bullock every damn time)

After this start I'd be impressed with that and thinking that the mid-round picks we'd end up with could help solve the remaining issues (along with a certain special teams coach retiring "with honor" after the season ends).
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Old 11-05-2013   #154
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
You are projecting your hopes onto the future and are very unlikely to be correct.
So you think the following are going to be on the team as starters next season?

Smith
Newton
Daniels
Schaub
Jones

Smith
Mitchell
Mays
Joseph
Jackson
Manning
Reed

Bullock

That's 5 offensive starters and 7 defensive starters and a fat worthless PK. Which of these are you so confident are going to be here next season as starters? I'd guess none of those offensive players and maybe 5/7 defensive will be back. Is that not a huge turnover? Almost half the starters? No? Yeah.
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Old 11-05-2013   #155
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

When teams "tank" it isn't the players that are doing the tanking. It is management putting their team in the best position to lose. Happens all the time.
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Old 11-05-2013   #156
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Are you seriously trying to say that a 53 man roster of professional athletes collaborated on losing games?

Seriously?

They lost their HoF QB for the season. That's why they had no viable back up. Manning was on pace to challenge Favre's consecutive start streak. They never needed a back up QB.

This for an offensive system that Manning basically played OC on the field.

You expect some journeyman back up QB to take his place??

You are delusional if you think the players tanked on purpose. Show me any shred of evidence that confirms such an unrealistic take. It is illogical.

BTW, the hole in your little scenario is the win over the Texans. That put their chance at a no. 1 pick in jeopardy.

History undermines your fantasy world:
You should probably read the next paragraph, they were still in the driver's seat for the #1 pick, even with that win.

Quote:
If the Colts lose to the Jaguars in Jacksonville on January 1, they’ll clinch the pick via the strength of schedule tiebreaker, which is the first measure used to determine draft position among non-playoff teams. But if the Colts continue their hot streak and beat the mediocre-at-best Jaguars, either the Rams or the Vikings would slide into the top position position, if either or both lose in Week 17.
Guess what happened in Jacksonville? I think it's pretty obvious they weren't really trying to win that year, given the roster and personnel. You can call it whatever you want, but I saw a team that was tanking that year. No I don't have a quote from a GM that said that was their plan, but that's what I believe they were doing.

Quote:
Yeah, that's exactly what I said. I'm not sure when or where I said it, but since you typed it I must have said it.

C'mon, man, you just trolling me for a response? When did you start using straw man tactics to make a point?
Why is this so difficult to follow? More wins = worse draft position. That's what happens when we win at this point, because this team isn't making the playoffs, and we will end up with about the 10-15th pick if we beat Jax twice, the Raiders and one more against whoever. It's pointless. The season is over and we are back where we were when Kubiak took over this franchise 7 years ago. A decent team with some good pieces that's going nowhere fast.

Quote:
Wanting our team to win as many games as they can is more defeatist than hoping they lose out?

We have such fundamentally different perspectives that this conversation is basically pointless.
Probably. This team isn't going anywhere with current management. I'm ready for the full nuclear option to get things going in the right direction. Burn it to the ground and rebuild.

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Then you had better pick a new team to follow. Do you honestly think McNair is going to clean house now?
Yes sir, if fans like you don't support this team in its current state and clamor for change.

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I'd like an overhaul, as well, and agree with your ultimate desire. But, I'm pragmatic enough to understand that I'm powerless to influence it and our owner is going to do what he wants to do.
Lol... thanks Captain Obvious.
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Old 11-05-2013   #157
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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So you're saying that an 8-8 finish at this point would be a failure to you? That would make the Texans 6-4 after benching Schaub and by my estimation 6-2 after sending Bullock to the house (I know, it's not a done deal yet but I'd take Racker or Graham over Bullock every damn time)

After this start I'd be impressed with that and thinking that the mid-round picks we'd end up with could help solve the remaining issues (along with a certain special teams coach retiring "with honor" after the season ends).
I think an 8-8 finish means that we have very little change next year, and we will have the same GM, HC and possibly special teams coach next year. That to me is where the team "loses." The W/L columns don't matter to me at this point, because I have written off the season. If you don't want another year of Gary and company, then losing is the best remedy IMO. I'm looking at the big picture of this franchise, and not the short-term feel-good moral victories we will get from the Texans beating up the Jaguars and company.
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Old 11-05-2013   #158
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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I think an 8-8 finish means that we have very little change next year, and we will have the same GM, HC and possibly special teams coach next year. That to me is where the team "loses." The W/L columns don't matter to me at this point, because I have written off the season. If you don't want another year of Gary and company, then losing is the best remedy IMO. I'm looking at the big picture of this franchise, and not the short-term feel-good moral victories we will get from the Texans beating up the Jaguars and company.

I'm still trying to figure out what the owner meant when he said "Super Bowl or Bust"...
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Old 11-05-2013   #159
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Default Re: Why aren't we trying to find a kicker?

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I'm still trying to figure out what the owner meant when he said "Super Bowl or Bust"...
That means, "Renew your season tickets! Buy a jersey!"

I'm curious - what did you think it meant?
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Old 11-05-2013   #160
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