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Old 10-15-2013   #61
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
I don't expect Keenum to spark this team into the playoffs - in other words, sustaining a prospective good showing in a debut. But I am hoping that he pumps some life into some players, so that they can believe again. If that means a healthy Schuab steps back in a few games later - fine.

Right now, this team needs a jolt. They need something to make them believe again.
Once the decision is made to bench schaub........and jump over yates to Keenum.....there shouldn't be any going back to Schaub or Yates unless an injury occurs. I mean what kind of confidence does it inspire in your team when you as the coach can't even make up your mind who should be your starter at the most important position on the team?

Along with the fact that its still early in the season, and the texans arent mathematcally eliminated from the playoffs I think thats the biggest part of why Kubiak is prolonging making the move to Keenum..........as he should.
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Old 10-15-2013   #62
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Originally Posted by 2012Champs View Post
Starting Case would show a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. At best if you are a Case fan you would want to give him weeks of snaps with the 1st teamers in practice so if he starts it should be after the bye
Yates has thrown 9 INTs in his last 12 appearances; considering his myriad other similarities to Schaub - I don't see how sending TJ out to further demonstrate his ineptitude shows leadership on Kubiak's part

A HC's job is to put the best men on the field, develop a winning game plan, and then execute and adjust that game plan as need be to win the game. We don't know whether Keenum is better than Yates or Schaub yet, but we know that there is only negligible difference between Yates and a mentally/physically broken Schaub...negligible enough for opposing defense's to implement the same game plan against either with identical success.

Starting Keenum is the only thing that Kubiak could do substantially adjust the offense without scrapping his whole system, which obviously isn't on his Denny's menu.
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Old 10-15-2013   #63
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Originally Posted by burro View Post
Yates has thrown 9 INTs in his last 12 appearances; considering his myriad other similarities to Schaub - I don't see how sending TJ out to further demonstrate his ineptitude shows leadership on Kubiak's part

A HC's job is to put the best men on the field, develop a winning game plan, and then execute and adjust that game plan as need be to win the game. We don't know whether Keenum is better than Yates or Schaub yet, but we know that there is only negligible difference between Yates and a mentally/physically broken Schaub...negligible enough for opposing defense's to implement the same game plan against either with identical success.

Starting Keenum is the only thing that Kubiak could do substantially adjust the offense without scrapping his whole system, which obviously isn't on his Denny's menu.
Right, but neither does making panic moves either....and jumping over Yates..........the #2 qb......that you declared at the beginning of the season....in favor of your #3 wreaks of a panic move.....especially so early in the season. A big part of the reason folks declared Cleveland's season over was b/c they did exactly what you guys are advocating that kubiak do.......Furthermore, it's the last move he can make....he's gonna put it off as long as he can......cant really blame the man for that...
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Old 10-15-2013   #64
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Right, but neither does making panic moves either....and jumping over Yates..........the #2 qb......that you declared at the beginning of the season....in favor of your #3 wreaks of a panic move.....especially so early in the season. A big part of the reason folks declared Cleveland's season over was b/c they did exactly what you guys are advocating that kubiak do.......Furthermore, it's the last move he can make....he's gonna put it off as long as he can......cant really blame the man for that...
It's not really a "panic move" if that #2 QB has been demonstrably terrible in the ~3 quarters that he's appeared in. Regardless - who cares what it wreaks of? I'd prefer the HC 'panic' and drop the awful #2 (no pun intended) for the unknown quantity at #3 rather than stubbornly stick with the awful #2 because he declared him the #2 and doesn't want to lose face. If we are going to rag on Kubiak for sticking with players for too long, it's only fair to point out that Yates is no insurance policy to brag about.
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Old 10-15-2013   #65
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
How can you possibly know that Yates can't win games? Both Case and Yates have earned a shot, whether Schaub was injured or not. Yates more so than Keenum at this point, in my opinion.
How could we possibly know? How about almost a half season of sub par play in regular season / playoff games?

T.J. Yates Career Regular Season + Playoffs
Comp Att Comp % Yards TDs INT Rating
129 . 221 . 58% . 1443 . 4 . 9 . 67

Christian Freaking Ponder 2012 Season
Comp Att Comp % Yards TDs INT Rating
300 . 483 . 62% . 2935 . 18 . 12 . 81

Yates 221 attempts - almost half a season for a "game manager" offense (221 is 46% of Ponder's 483 attempts in 2012) for a QB rating of 67. Significantly worst than, well, Christian F. Ponder! (I am trying to set the bar pretty low!) Clearly this is Schaub's worst year by far, his QB rating is 79 (14 points below his career average) and a healthy Yates can't even touch that!

You say both have earned a shot. Yates has had a pretty good shot (half a season). Do the Texans have to burn another season and a half to be sure he is worse than, well Christian F. Ponder?!?! Then two years on Keenum, so if he is no better they shouldn't draft a QB until the 2017 draft because they "deserve" a shot?

Neither one deserves anything! Yates has had a shot, he blew it. I say give Keenum a shot, not because he "deserves" anything but because Yates and Schaub have failed and we have no one else. As I said in a previous post, Keenum probably will not be better than Ponder, but he is the only person on the roster with a chance.

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My backup argument? What are you talking about? I said if you really like Case his best bet is the let TJ get smashed this weekend and take two full weeks to get ready. I never said you had to have the snaps but it certainly makes sense
You never said that? Then someone hacked your account:

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Originally Posted by 2012Champs
Starting Case would show a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. At best if you are a Case fan you would want to give him weeks of snaps with the 1st teamers in practice so if he starts it should be after the bye
Some fans want Schaub, some Yates, some Keenum, some bring in someone else - so no matter who Kubiak starts he is showing a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. I am not a Case fan, I am a Texan fan. I agree with you, if I was Case's agent or mother I would want the situation you describe and I wouldn't care that the team took another loss in the meantime.

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Coaches tend to have more insight then fans.
Meh, sometimes. Maybe Keenum is butt fumbling in practice every day and the fans don't see that. But some coaches (think KUBIAK) can be myopic and the "fans" actually have a better view of the big picture.

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Once the decision is made to bench schaub........and jump over yates to Keenum.....there shouldn't be any going back to Schaub or Yates unless an injury occurs. I mean what kind of confidence does it inspire in your team when you as the coach can't even make up your mind who should be your starter at the most important position on the team?

Along with the fact that its still early in the season, and the texans arent mathematcally eliminated from the playoffs I think thats the biggest part of why Kubiak is prolonging making the move to Keenum..........as he should.
What nonsense, although Kubiak's "Schaub until I die" stance does back you up. Any non-myopic coach would have benched Schaub at the half in SF and had a week to decide if Yates or Keenum started against the Rams. If the starter flopped, he could switch to the other one after the bye or even go back to Schaub (tanned, rested, and ready!)

I think the strategy of only starting guys who have proven to be inept will hasten the date of mathematical elimination from the playoffs but I don't think that should be an objective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Right, but neither does making panic moves either....and jumping over Yates..........the #2 qb......that you declared at the beginning of the season....in favor of your #3 wreaks of a panic move.....especially so early in the season. A big part of the reason folks declared Cleveland's season over was b/c they did exactly what you guys are advocating that kubiak do.......Furthermore, it's the last move he can make....he's gonna put it off as long as he can......cant really blame the man for that...
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but starting QB and backup QB are different jobs. A reasonable argument can be made that Yates was more appropriate for the backup job, but Keenum is more appropriate for the starting job.

A big part of the reason Cleveland won 3 games was they did the right thing. (They lost this week because their "#3" was injured and they had to revert to "#1"). Not making the correct move because you are afraid someone will think you panicked is truly caving in to the opinion of the masses. Obviously Cleveland made the correct move, but you are still saying it was a bad move because even though they won on the field they were criticized off the field.

And it's not the last move, especially with Schaub being injured. If Schaub recovers, he can be brought back at any time the other QBs performance per game is worse than two INTs (one a pick 6).
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Old 10-16-2013   #66
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

Right, so a quarterback is maxed out in their rookie season?

Just put Fred on the not to be taken seriously list. That entire post, and not just the part replying to me, screams "I don't know what I'm talking about."
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Old 10-16-2013   #67
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Right, so a quarterback is maxed out in their rookie season?

Just put Fred on the not to be taken seriously list. That entire post, and not just the part replying to me, screams "I don't know what I'm talking about."
Whoa, sorry Mrs. Yates, no offense intended. I'm sure your son TJ is a fine young man.
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Old 10-16-2013   #68
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Originally Posted by Fred View Post
How could we possibly know? How about almost a half season of sub par play in regular season / playoff games?

T.J. Yates Career Regular Season + Playoffs
Comp Att Comp % Yards TDs INT Rating
129 . 221 . 58% . 1443 . 4 . 9 . 67

Christian Freaking Ponder 2012 Season
Comp Att Comp % Yards TDs INT Rating
300 . 483 . 62% . 2935 . 18 . 12 . 81

Yates 221 attempts - almost half a season for a "game manager" offense (221 is 46% of Ponder's 483 attempts in 2012) for a QB rating of 67. Significantly worst than, well, Christian F. Ponder! (I am trying to set the bar pretty low!) Clearly this is Schaub's worst year by far, his QB rating is 79 (14 points below his career average) and a healthy Yates can't even touch that!

You say both have earned a shot. Yates has had a pretty good shot (half a season). Do the Texans have to burn another season and a half to be sure he is worse than, well Christian F. Ponder?!?! Then two years on Keenum, so if he is no better they shouldn't draft a QB until the 2017 draft because they "deserve" a shot?

Neither one deserves anything! Yates has had a shot, he blew it. I say give Keenum a shot, not because he "deserves" anything but because Yates and Schaub have failed and we have no one else. As I said in a previous post, Keenum probably will not be better than Ponder, but he is the only person on the roster with a chance.



You never said that? Then someone hacked your account:



Some fans want Schaub, some Yates, some Keenum, some bring in someone else - so no matter who Kubiak starts he is showing a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. I am not a Case fan, I am a Texan fan. I agree with you, if I was Case's agent or mother I would want the situation you describe and I wouldn't care that the team took another loss in the meantime.



Meh, sometimes. Maybe Keenum is butt fumbling in practice every day and the fans don't see that. But some coaches (think KUBIAK) can be myopic and the "fans" actually have a better view of the big picture.



What nonsense, although Kubiak's "Schaub until I die" stance does back you up. Any non-myopic coach would have benched Schaub at the half in SF and had a week to decide if Yates or Keenum started against the Rams. If the starter flopped, he could switch to the other one after the bye or even go back to Schaub (tanned, rested, and ready!)

I think the strategy of only starting guys who have proven to be inept will hasten the date of mathematical elimination from the playoffs but I don't think that should be an objective.



I hate to be the one to break this to you, but starting QB and backup QB are different jobs. A reasonable argument can be made that Yates was more appropriate for the backup job, but Keenum is more appropriate for the starting job.

A big part of the reason Cleveland won 3 games was they did the right thing. (They lost this week because their "#3" was injured and they had to revert to "#1"). Not making the correct move because you are afraid someone will think you panicked is truly caving in to the opinion of the masses. Obviously Cleveland made the correct move, but you are still saying it was a bad move because even though they won on the field they were criticized off the field.

And it's not the last move, especially with Schaub being injured. If Schaub recovers, he can be brought back at any time the other QBs performance per game is worse than two INTs (one a pick 6).
1st of all, they won 2 games with Hoyer..the 3rd game against Buffalo when he got injured halfway through the 1st quarter, Weeden came in and played the rest of that game..In any event, it's hardly a substantial body of work to determine that making the move to Hoyer was the right move. The other end of that is the move back to Weeden was only made b/c Hoyer got hurt...not the same situation.

And hate to break it to you, but making the move to Keenum is the last move he can make....the last new move to give this team the proverbial "spark" everyone wants anyway. People want Schaub benched b/c he's not playing well....Ok, bring in Yates...he doesn't play well & people want him benched....Ok, bring in Keenum...what move are you gonna make if he plays just as bad or worse than the 2 prior to him? What, you're gonna go back to 1 of the other 2 bad qb's you benched him for & promise "this time it's gonna be different!" yeah, i'm not taking you seriously as player at that point...if i didn't stop taking you serious prior to that.

It's the very reason why coaches are so hesitant to make qb changes during the season unless they have the clear heir apparent on the sidelines...& those guys usually are 1st-2nd round draft picks the team took the year prior. & sorry to break it to you guys but Keenum isn't in that category, he's just the alternative fans are grasping for straws at b/c they haven't seen him play in the regular season yet..

I'm gonna dismiss the numbers you put for Yates..he was a rookie & all things considered he performed admirably. Last week, he was put in a bad situation.

The comparisons to Christian Ponder.....Hey, that's what happens when teams get film on you. Ponder started out great last year....If i recall, he didn't throw an int for the 1st 3 games. teams got film on him, started figuring out his tendencies, game, set, match. It happens to every qb in this league....& it will happen to Keenum. Ultimately i'm not confident he'll be able to sustain any good play for the long haul.

Last edited by Mr teX; 10-16-2013 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 10-16-2013   #69
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Coaches tend to have more insight then fans.
Yep, the decision to trot out Schaub in SF worked so well didn't it. Tell me what pass attempt was returned for a pick 6? That's right, the first one. Had two more picks after that and hit a defender in the numbers who dropped it.

You're confusing coaches with infallible creatures. You're also confusing Kubiak with a coach who's already taken his team to the Superbowl before and thus gets the benefit of the doubt from fans and coaches alike.

To add to that, there's also several coaches who HAVE taken their teams to to Superbowl that would've benched Shaub either before the SF game, or immediately after the pick 6.

So, to which coaching insight are you referring to exactly?
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Old 10-16-2013   #70
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Yep, the decision to trot out Schaub in SF worked so well didn't it. Tell me what pass attempt was returned for a pick 6? That's right, the first one. Had two more picks after that and hit a defender in the numbers who dropped it.

You're confusing coaches with infallible creatures. You're also confusing Kubiak with a coach who's already taken his team to the Superbowl before and thus gets the benefit of the doubt from fans and coaches alike.

To add to that, there's also several coaches who HAVE taken their teams to to Superbowl that would've benched Shaub either before the SF game, or immediately after the pick 6.

So, to which coaching insight are you referring to exactly?



No one is infallible. I do believe however that current NFL staffs are much more informed than fans are. I do also believe that Matt Schuab even in pick 6 form was and is the best qb the team has and still the best option to win.
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Old 10-16-2013   #71
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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No one is infallible. I do believe however that current NFL staffs are much more informed than fans are. I do also believe that Matt Schuab even in pick 6 form was and is the best qb the team has and still the best option to win.
Have you ever played team sports above high school, have you ever coached team sports above high school and have you been a season ticket holder for the Texans since 2002?

Just trying to get a baseline for your experience.
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Old 10-16-2013   #72
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Have you ever played team sports above high school, have you ever coached team sports above high school and have you been a season ticket holder for the Texans since 2002?

Just trying to get a baseline for your experience.


The answer to all 3 questions is no much like most Texans fans. I would get some understanding as to the first two and how that would relate but being a season ticket holder would be irrelevant. I would also wager that if you, yourself could answer yes to all 3 that would still leave you behind nfl coaching staffs so as a baseline you and most other "fans" arent on par


lets build more strawmen
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Old 10-16-2013   #73
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Have you ever played team sports above high school, have you ever coached team sports above high school and have you been a season ticket holder for the Texans since 2002?

Just trying to get a baseline for your experience.
what does that matter? some of the best minds & coaches in sports never set foot on the field/court as a professional player (belichick, lombardi)
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Old 10-16-2013   #74
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

I was watching the Michael Strahan episode of "A Football Life" last night (a good one, too!), and one of the interviews made me curious.

They were talking with Jim Fassel about his tenure as HC of the Giants. He led the team to a Super Bowl in 2000 and lost to the Ravens.

But, during the interview, he mentioned his assistant coaches. His Offensive Coordinator was Sean Payton. His Defensive Coordinator was John Fox. Both went on to be head coaches in the NFL with good success (both went to the Super Bowl and Payton's team won it).

We see amazing coaching trees from great head coaches. The legends of the game - Landry, Lombardi, Gillman, Walsh, Parcells, etc. - have very successful coaching trees, often with coaches that go on to head coach and win championships.

Which brings us to Kubiak. What kind of tree does he have after 8 years in the league? I guess we can count Wade, but his resume started well before Kubiak even became an assistant coach in the league. Who else?

I'm not trying to disrespect the man. In analyzing him as a head coach, though, it is obvious that he does not hire assistants that are better at their jobs than he is at his, and his M.O. appears to be to not hire anyone that will challenge him.

This is my perception, backed by NFL history and trends. The great head coaches in NFL history hire men who possess the potential to one day take their jobs.

Kubiak? meh, not so much.
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Old 10-16-2013   #75
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Originally Posted by 2012Champs
My backup argument? What are you talking about? I said if you really like Case his best bet is the let TJ get smashed this weekend and take two full weeks to get ready. I never said you had to have the snaps but it certainly makes sense

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Originally Posted by Fred View Post

You never said that? Then someone hacked your account:


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Originally Posted by 2012Champs
Starting Case would show a lack of leadership and folding to ignorant fan pressure. At best if you are a Case fan you would want to give him weeks of snaps with the 1st teamers in practice so if he starts it should be after the bye



Reread what you have quoted and what I typed. I never said you had to have snaps. I said if you are a case fan you would want him to get the extra snaps before starting
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Old 10-16-2013   #76
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Originally Posted by 2012Champs View Post
The answer to all 3 questions is no much like most Texans fans. I would get some understanding as to the first two and how that would relate but being a season ticket holder would be irrelevant. I would also wager that if you, yourself could answer yes to all 3 that would still leave you behind nfl coaching staffs so as a baseline you and most other "fans" arent on par


lets build more strawmen
No strawmen - trying to get a feel for you experience or lack thereof as it relates to your line of questioning to other members' contributions on the subject matter.

Kubiak knows his X's and O's, but does not show the ability to lead a team, adjust or innovate. For those that are season ticket holders and are invested in the Texan experience, coupled with their experience in the sports and business world, this is evident. Their discussion on the matter is worth propagating, not stifling as you attempt to do on a regular basis.
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Old 10-16-2013   #77
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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No one is infallible. I do believe however that current NFL staffs are much more informed than fans are. I do also believe that
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Matt Schuab even in pick 6 form was and is the best qb the team has
and still the best option to win.

Maybe, maybe not.

We won't know until we play the only unknown card we have left.

This current NFL staff is not getting the job done. Can you at least agree to that?

I don't understand posters love here for Wade Phillips.

He is following his previous track record. Start fast then fade.

Our "good" offensive / defensive stats are getting our arses kicked.

Do I think Case will lead us to the promised land, maybe, maybe not.

There is no "maybe" where Schaub is concerned. He is broken.

Kubiaks system might work with a mobile qb. Won't know until we try.

And yes. I have written off this season.

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Old 10-16-2013   #78
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Originally Posted by cuppacoffee View Post
Maybe, maybe not.

We won't know until we play the only unknown card we have left.

This current NFL staff is not getting the job done. Can you at least agree to that?

I don't understand posters love here for Wade Phillips.

He is following his previous track record. Start fast then fade.

Our "good" offensive / defensive stats are getting our arses kicked.

Do I think Case will lead us to the promised land, maybe, maybe not.

There is no "maybe" where Schaub is concerned. He is broken.

Kubiaks system might work with a mobile qb. Won't know until we try.

And yes. I have written off this season.

I don't think people actually want or like the idea of Wade as HC. But knowing McNair it is pretty much inevitable. So you eat your **** sandwich and try to dress it up the best you can
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Old 10-16-2013   #79
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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I don't think people actually want or like the idea of Wade as HC. But knowing McNair it is pretty much inevitable. So you eat your **** sandwich and try to dress it up the best you can
Well said.
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Old 10-16-2013   #80
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Default Re: Coaching Leadership, would like to see it

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Which brings us to Kubiak. What kind of tree does he have after 8 years in the league? I guess we can count Wade, but his resume started well before Kubiak even became an assistant coach in the league. Who else?
What kind of tree does Mike McCarthy have after 8 years?
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