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Old 08-30-2013   #661
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
I really don't see how anyone could consider this guy knowledgable as far as football goes even a little when he says outlandish statements like this. Personally, I think it's for attention, because there is no way a guy could watch as much football as he claims and state that Kapernick and Luck haven't proven that they are starters in this league. He is just trolling to create conversation. If not, that would be even worse, but I can't believe that he honestly believes that in his mind.
There are two different things going on here.

Kaepernick is flash & glitz..... he's the shiny "new" thing that people are easily enamored with. He's Michael Vick in a receiver friendly league. Michael Vick worked out well for Atlanta at first, but when teams caught up to him, it was obvious that Vick did not improve as a QB as well as he should have. Kaepernick will face that same challenge.

Andy Luck.... do the math. Blaine Gabbart is a statistical twin. The plug would have been pulled on Luck way before he got close to 4000 yards on a team that didn't keep it close enough to win.

He averaged 1+ Int per game. Nobody brags about a 50% completion percentage or a 76 QBR... that doesn't scream real deal. Especially when you have two rookie QBs who performed much better in RG3 & Russell Wilson; two guys I don't clump together with Luck & Kaepernick. Two guys who have proven they are starting QBs imo.

They've got to do it again, same as CK, but I think odds are better that they will. Luck has yet to prove he's "special" much less a starting QB.
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Old 08-30-2013   #662
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Andy Luck.... do the math. Blaine Gabbart is a statistical twin. The plug would have been pulled on Luck way before he got close to 4000 yards on a team that didn't keep it close enough to win.

He averaged 1+ Int per game. Nobody brags about a 50% completion percentage or a 76 QBR... that doesn't scream real deal. Especially when you have two rookie QBs who performed much better in RG3 & Russell Wilson; two guys I don't clump together with Luck & Kaepernick. Two guys who have proven they are starting QBs imo.

They've got to do it again, same as CK, but I think odds are better that they will. Luck has yet to prove he's "special" much less a starting QB.
Red, I do believe you're talking out of your ass.

OK, so what if Luck had an improved completion percentage, just by a couple points, say 56-57%, threw for under 4000 hard, say maybe 3800, but threw for more INTs, say in the high 20s? About the same QB Rating. What's your prognosis then, Dr.?
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Old 08-30-2013   #663
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Red, I do believe you're talking out of your ass.

OK, so what if Luck had an improved completion percentage, just by a couple points, say 56-57%, threw for under 4000 hard, say maybe 3800, but threw for more INTs, say in the high 20s? About the same QB Rating. What's your prognosis then, Dr.?
If this was his 1st & only year as a starter I'd say the jury is still out & he still has to prove he is a starter. Same thing I'm saying now.

It's not an impressive year for the best QB prospect in a lifetime. It doesn't compare to Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, or RG3, not even close.

If you're scared of a guy that puts up Luck's numbers, watch out for Blain Gabbert.

Three years from now if Luck is putting up the same numbers, he won't be a starter.

Three years from now, if Russell Wilson is putting up the same numbers, he will be a starter. It's that simple. Luck is being given a pass.
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Old 08-30-2013   #664
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Red, I do believe you're talking out of your ass.

OK, so what if Luck had an improved completion percentage, just by a couple points, say 56-57%, threw for under 4000 hard, say maybe 3800, but threw for more INTs, say in the high 20s? About the same QB Rating. What's your prognosis then, Dr.?
I'll tell you what THIS Dr.'s prognosis is. I had communications last year with Rey, where I pointed out that every game on virtually every pass Luck threw, he lifted his back foot high off the ground and usually swung it around.......just like a baseball pitcher. There is no way a QB can have any semblance of consistent accuracy with that unbalanced form as the ball is released..........Luck, with his poor completion rate and high INT rate was no exception to the rule last year. If someone has not coached this out of him by this year, expect to see much of the same.

You might want to watch him (and his back foot) in these 2012 highlights. Yes, he completed those passes, but there were as many that ran afoul......and too many into the wrong hands (they don't usually compile highlights on those, do they?).
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Old 08-30-2013   #665
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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If this was his 1st & only year as a starter I'd say the jury is still out & he still has to prove he is a starter. Same thing I'm saying now.
Those were Payton Manning's numbers, btw. I was going to start down the Drew Brees road as well, but the whole conversation got tiresome. I don't think anyone is taking your views on QBs seriously at this point. If anyone is, speak up.
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Old 08-30-2013   #666
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

I'd hate to go off topic here but when will we know who is the backup QB for the Texans?
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Old 08-30-2013   #667
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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I'd hate to go off topic here but when will we know who is the backup QB for the Texans?
Kubiak told the AP that he will make that decision next Thursday (essentially that confirms he is keeping 3 QBs).
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Old 08-30-2013   #668
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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Those were Payton Manning's numbers, btw. I was going to start down the Drew Brees road as well, but the whole conversation got tiresome. I don't think anyone is taking your views on QBs seriously at this point. If anyone is, speak up.
That's because many have a reading comprehension problem.

I don't care who those numbers belong to, they do not scream starting QB, much less future H.O.F. I can't remember back to 1998 to remember what people thought of Peyton's rookie season, but he got better his second & third season. If he didn't he wouldn't be a starting QB in the NFL, because those numbers are not good enough for a starting QB in the NFL.

Find me one starter that turned in those numbers year after year & kept his starting job. Other than Blaine Gabbert who most don't believe should be starting.

I can find you several who had numbers similar to Russel Wilson & RG3's rookie season & stayed in the league year after year after year. I can find you several starters who never had numbers as good as RG3 but kept their starting job.
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Old 08-30-2013   #669
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

It's been one year. I think it goes without saying that their careers haven't been written yet.
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Old 08-30-2013   #670
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

Is this guy still trying to compare Luck to Elaine?

One guy rarely threw the ball past 10 yards down the field, feels phantom pressure, (Jag fans call him "chuck and duck"), and pees all over the field at the first hint of someone coming close to him. Elaine might be the worst NFL QB I've ever seen... yes even worse than David Carr. Elaine also has zero leadership and can't lead a team in the huddle or in any other faction. When he starts week 1 or 2 (whenever he recovers from injury, he will easily be the worst starting QB in the NFL. Hell I'd take the Bills' emergency UDFA rookie QB over him week 1. There's a reason why "Gabbert didn't have the same amount of pass attempts as Luck". The more he throws the ball, the less of a chance his team has at winning the ball game... it's why MJD has been driven into the ground under Elaine.

The other guy is complete opposite, he will stand tall in the pocket, will sacrifice his body in order to make a big play, whether running the ball or buying time for his receivers down field... and he'll actually look to strike down field. Luck also came in as a rookie and was accepted by veterans as a leader of men and he led them to a 11-5 record

I don't really give a flip what his completion % was as a ROOKIE and I don't care if (outside of passing yards.. NFL record) he didn't put up mind blowing #s (completion % and INTs) like the likes of Cam Newton and Robert Griffin.. I think people are ignoring the usual progression of what is a NFL rookie QB, they usually always struggle and face great adversity. What Griffin and Cam did is NOT NORMAL.. and to a certain extent neither was what Luck did.

Go on the Colts board and tell them Andrew Luck is like Elaine Gabbert, they will laugh at you.

Hell, go on the Jags board and tell them that, they will laugh at you too.
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Old 08-30-2013   #671
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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That's because many have a reading comprehension problem.

I don't care who those numbers belong to, they do not scream starting QB, much less future H.O.F. I can't remember back to 1998 to remember what people thought of Peyton's rookie season, but he got better his second & third season. If he didn't he wouldn't be a starting QB in the NFL, because those numbers are not good enough for a starting QB in the NFL.

Find me one starter that turned in those numbers year after year & kept his starting job. Other than Blaine Gabbert who most don't believe should be starting.

I can find you several who had numbers similar to Russel Wilson & RG3's rookie season & stayed in the league year after year after year. I can find you several starters who never had numbers as good as RG3 but kept their starting job.
One name... that's easy.

Troy Aikman. For grins I'll throw in another.. Eli Manning. Both of these guys represent 5 SB championships and multiple SB MVP trophies. When you throw in Terry Bradshaw, those numbers get even more rediculous. Go figure.

Your problem is your critique is WAY too stat driven. You don't judge a rookie QB by "stats". They usually always hit different hurdles that they have to face as they navigate their way through the learning process of the hardest position to learn in professional sports. You judge them by how they handle those hurdles and are able to overcome them. If you do that, Andrew Luck passed with flying colors and had a fantastic rookie season, but I thought that was obvious. I mean really, who actually believes the guy had a bad season?

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Old 08-30-2013   #672
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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Kubiak told the AP that he will make that decision next Thursday (essentially that confirms he is keeping 3 QBs).
I think that is what will happen. I guess that means we need to cut Joe Marciano to make room?
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Old 08-30-2013   #673
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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Those were Payton Manning's numbers, btw.
Yeah and Manning went on to dramatically up his game in his 2nd year. Manning proved himself in his 2nd year, not his 1st. I think that is all TK is saying. Luck's hasn't proven himself with that 1st year and a lot of QBs don't make the kind of 2nd year improvement Manning did.

TK - you are wrong to bring up Gabbert and the numbers would not be close because Gabbert's ypa is 1.6 ypa less so with the same number of attempts as Luck, Gabbert would have thrown for 1003 less yards with 5 less TDs and 1 less INT.
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Old 08-31-2013   #674
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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TK - you are wrong to bring up Gabbert and the numbers would not be close because Gabbert's ypa is 1.6 ypa less so with the same number of attempts as Luck, Gabbert would have thrown for 1003 less yards with 5 less TDs and 1 less INT.
Are you using Gabbert's rookie numbers? I meant his 2012 numbers, his numbers as a starter which none of us believe are good enough to be a starter. By my calculations he'd have been 626 yards shy of Luck's numbers, 3 touchdowns short, & thrown 4 to 5 less INTs. Not exactly the same, but close enough to say it ain't good enough.


But, you're right about my point, even if Blaine is a poor example.
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Old 08-31-2013   #675
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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One name... that's easy.

Troy Aikman. For grins I'll throw in another.. Eli Manning. Both of these guys represent 5 SB championships and multiple SB MVP trophies. When you throw in Terry Bradshaw, those numbers get even more rediculous. Go figure.
I see. Forgive me, I thought you knew WTF you were talking about. I was wrong, I won't bother you anymore on this.
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Old 08-31-2013   #676
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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I see. Forgive me, I thought you knew WTF you were talking about. I was wrong, I won't bother you anymore on this.
Umm, I do know WTF I'm talking about and you know I do... Which is why all you could offer up was this lame ass response above with no actual rebuttal against anything I posted regarding this topic.

"Andrew Luck is comparable to Blaine Gabbert" = (Just like there's no real competition to the #2 QB spot right?.. you still believe that?)

Do me a favor, go post your opinion on the Jags official message board, you'll have homefield advantage there. I really want to see the comments posted. The fact that you admittedly took a rookie player who led a team that previously had the worst record in the league to a 11-5 record. A player who lost his HC and through his play got his offensive coordinator hired as a now HC in the NFL and then compared said player to a non rookie second year starter who through his play got his HC fired just after one single season, got his GM fired too, and who's team actually brought in Chad Henne to compete with him is a absolute stretch. But continue on with "stats", because they obviously paint the entire picture right

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Old 08-31-2013   #677
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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Find me one starter that turned in those numbers year after year & kept his starting job.
Other than Blaine Gabbert who most don't believe should be starting.

One name... that's easy.

Troy Aikman. For grins I'll throw in another.. Eli Manning. Both of these guys represent 5 SB championships and multiple SB MVP trophies. When you throw in Terry Bradshaw, those numbers get even more rediculous. Go figure.
Nah, you don't know what you're talking about. You even bolded the criteria in in my post. Neither Aikman or Eli turned in Luck type (Gabbert like) numbers year after year & kept their job.

& it's not like you didn't know what numbers I was talking about. eriadoc knew...

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Red, I do believe you're talking out of your ass.

OK, so what if Luck had an improved completion percentage, just by a couple points, say 56-57%, threw for under 4000 hard, say maybe 3800, but threw for more INTs, say in the high 20s? About the same QB Rating. What's your prognosis then, Dr.?
I was pretty specific

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Andy Luck.... do the math. Blaine Gabbart is a statistical twin. The plug would have been pulled on Luck way before he got close to 4000 yards on a team that didn't keep it close enough to win.

He averaged 1+ Int per game. Nobody brags about a 50% completion percentage or a 76 QBR... that doesn't scream real deal. Especially when you have two rookie QBs who performed much better in RG3 & Russell Wilson; two guys I don't clump together with Luck & Kaepernick. Two guys who have proven they are starting QBs imo.
'cak knew what I was talking about

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Yeah and Manning went on to dramatically up his game in his 2nd year. Manning proved himself in his 2nd year, not his 1st. I think that is all TK is saying. Luck's hasn't proven himself with that 1st year and a lot of QBs don't make the kind of 2nd year improvement Manning did.

TK - you are wrong to bring up Gabbert and the numbers would not be close because Gabbert's ypa is 1.6 ypa less so with the same number of attempts as Luck, Gabbert would have thrown for 1003 less yards with 5 less TDs and 1 less INT.
But you're going to tell me that Andrew Luck is a bonafide HoFamer & multi-Super Bowl winning QB averaging 1+ INT per game..... nah, I don't think so. 76 QBR... no way. 54% completion percentage?

If he does this again next year, he'll be out of a job because "real" starting QBs perform better than that. Doesn't matter how good they look throwing the ball to the other team... or how good they look throwing it in the dirt... it's generally considered unacceptable.
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Old 08-31-2013   #678
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

You can't pencil them in for the HOF or say theyll be THE elite QB's for the next 15 yeats and you can't definitively say they won't be either.

I don't understand this argument. If you're going to talk about projections would t it make sense to talk actual football stuff? Like the players abilities and their team outlooks moving forward?

Btw, this young qb's coming in and tearing up the league is kind of new. I don't think it's happened like this before where you have so many good young QB's immediately helping their team in such huge ways. I could be wrong.
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Old 08-31-2013   #679
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Nah, you don't know what you're talking about. You even bolded the criteria in in my post. Neither Aikman or Eli turned in Luck type (Gabbert like) numbers year after year & kept their job.

& it's not like you didn't know what numbers I was talking about.
eriadoc knew...

I was pretty specific

Actually it wasn't, I didn't know the exact #'s, because most of what you've typed wasn't specific... I just simply winged the #s I chose off of QBs who posted "Gabbert like" stats, that is the criteria right? God knows I couldn't go off of the NFL record breaking passing yards Luck put up, his record breaking amount of 4th quarter comebacks, or his wins and loss record, because that would be stupid.. but since you posted some exact examples of this criteria below,

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
76 QBR... no way. 54% completion percentage?
I'll go off of that.

Both Eli's and Troy's #s are lower.. granted Troy's completion % was 2.5% higher in his SECOND YEAR STARTING (and if we're going by how you compared Luck to Gabbert, I'm now comparing a rook to the statistical year of 2nd year players) both QBR ratings were lower and they both had a lower TD to INT ratio..


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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
But you're going to tell me that Andrew Luck is a bonafide HoFamer & multi-Super Bowl winning QB averaging 1+ INT per game.....nah, I don't think so.
Please don't stick words in my mouth... post where I ever said Luck was a bonafide HOFer and multi super bowl winning QB?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
'cak knew what I was talking about
No he didn't... The biggest hang up here is you comparing Luck to a bust, which 'Cak disagreed with... He knew so much of what you were talking about that he didn't even know which year of Elaine's two year career that you were trying to pin on Luck. There's a difference in a guy saying that he agrees that Luck needs to back up his performance (a performance which you completely wrote off as nothing) and comparing said player to a huge bust.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
If he does this again next year, he'll be out of a job because "real" starting QBs perform better than that. Doesn't matter how good they look throwing the ball to the other team... or how good they look throwing it in the dirt... it's generally considered unacceptable.
??? Trust me.. if Andrew Luck even matches the year he had as a rookie where he broke the rookie record for passing yards and 4th quarter comebacks... he isn't going to be out of a job. I'm sure he'll be able to find work, lol.

Last edited by Carr Bombed; 08-31-2013 at 04:47 AM.
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Old 08-31-2013   #680
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Default Re: Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
You can't pencil them in for the HOF or say theyll be THE elite QB's for the next 15 yeats and you can't definitively say they won't be either.

I don't understand this argument. If you're going to talk about projections would t it make sense to talk actual football stuff? Like the players abilities and their team outlooks moving forward?

Btw, this young qb's coming in and tearing up the league is kind of new. I don't think it's happened like this before where you have so many good young QB's immediately helping their team in such huge ways. I could be wrong.
Exactly.. This is actually the point I'm trying to make. Nobody is saying Luck is a HOFer, but he isn't Elaine and actual football plays and ability don't show up in reading a stat line. Anybody who's actually watched both players play can easily tell the difference (and the word "easily" is a understatement). Gabbert sucks and is one good alternative option on the Jaguars' roster from being parked on the bench or completely out of the league.. while Luck has to wear shades because the future is so bright and it burns my ass he's in our division.

Last edited by Carr Bombed; 08-31-2013 at 05:00 AM.
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