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View Poll Results: Who should start if Matt decided not to play another down?
Tj Yates 9 9.38%
Case Keenum 48 50.00%
Schaub can't do that 10 10.42%
May the best man win 29 30.21%
Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-14-2013   #121
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

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Originally Posted by JCTexan View Post
Highest level of what? College? He wasn't consistently beating SEC or Big 12 teams in college.

I have nothing against Keenum, but I'm sure as hell not anointing him because he set records in Conference USA.
If you read my other posts, you'll see I'm the last person who would suggest annointing Case Keenum anything.
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Old 08-14-2013   #122
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

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Originally Posted by NCTexan View Post
False. Beast Tennessee in 2010. 30-27 in overtime.
Thanks....... I totally overlooked the 2010 Music City Bowl (damned Wikipedia).

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCTexan View Post
Obviously I favor TJ over Case because of my school affiliation, but I want whoever gives the Texans the best chance to win out. I feel like too many people are making these statements when there are still 3 preseason games left.
I still don't think there's a competition. Kubiak isn't that kind. Tj will be the backup.

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Originally Posted by NCTexan View Post
edit: Not that this disputes your point. Just my best memory of TJ in college. It was complete pandemonium at the watching party I was at.
Cool.
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Old 08-14-2013   #123
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Thanks....... I totally overlooked the 2010 Music City Bowl (damned Wikipedia).



I still don't think there's a competition. Kubiak isn't that kind. Tj will be the backup.



Cool.
so all the talk Kubiak has said about the competition between Case and Tj is all false and TJ is already 2nd QB is a done deal regardless?
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Old 08-14-2013   #124
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

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Originally Posted by legacy_gt View Post
so all the talk Kubiak has said about the competition between Case and Tj is all false and TJ is already 2nd QB is a done deal regardless?
Yes.

His goal is to get Keenum as ready as possible in case we need him.
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Old 08-14-2013   #125
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
If you read my other posts, you'll see I'm the last person who would suggest annointing Case Keenum anything.
I was responding to what you said, not necessarily you: Sometimes when I quote someone it's to feed off of what they wrote. You were the 2nd person to say that Keenum performed at the highest level. I decided to quote you instead of the first guy to pose my question.
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Old 08-14-2013   #126
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Yes.

His goal is to get Keenum as ready as possible in case we need him.
Kubiak is not one to mislead the fans either. I believe there truly is a competition between Case and Tj and these pre-season games will determine it although I do believe Case has to be over the top to win the position.
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Old 08-14-2013   #127
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

Actually, OK state is a fantastic comparison. In fact, it is analagous
to Schaub v. Patriots.

In 2008 an Ok. St. team that was not as good as the 2009 Ok. St.
team defeated a Keenum led Houston team 56-37. A pretty resounding
loss.

The very next year, and in stillwater, Keenum was able to turn the
table and pull a massive upset with essentially the same team against
a much more highly-regarded #5 Ok. St. team that had both
Dez Bryant and Kendall Hunter

In fact Ok St. had several players drafted that year and the next:
Bryant, Hunter, Robinson, Okung, Cox. While the Keenum houston team
had exactly 1 -- Onobun who was a fieldgoal block specialist and is
no longer in the league.

You can argue that Ok. St. was overrated, but even after losing
Kendal Hunter to injury and Dez Bryant to NCAA suspension they
still finished #19 in the final BCS while Houston was unranked.

It is highly illustrative of how Keenum could lift a less talented team -
Keeping in mind that 2009 was only the second season Keenum had
under the new offense installed by Sumlin and Holgorsen (yes,
he made a leap in his second year in college just as he has done
with the Texans..)

When Schaub made the statement that you have to "beat the best
to be the best" and then became totally anemic vs. Rodgers/Packers
and Brady/Patriots my gut told me that Matt can let the big stage
get into his head and negatively affect his play.

The second game against Brady went exactly the same way.
After throwing his first pick at midfield the game just got away.
Watching him I just got the feeling that he couldn't get his head
back in the game.

Ok. St. actually came back in the game against Keenum but he didn't
break. He moved the team downfield when he needed to and came
away with a win. The same is true for several other games he had
against ranked teams.

He was particularly deadly to ranked teams in his own conference.
(Tulsa and ECU come to mind). Again he was an underdog and came
away with wins.

This is very un-Schaub/Yates-esqu. I still for the life of me can't
figure out why we can't beat Indy at Indy. Both of our last two
attempts disgust me. 2-14 for the colts, and one was against Yates.
It still stings when I hear it.

TJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCTexan View Post
Comparing Keenum's game against Oklahoma State to Schaub or Yates in the playoffs is weak. Regardless of BCS rankings, Oklahoma State had a terrible defense and they played in a ton of high scoring games. You're not really comparing apples to apples here.
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Old 08-14-2013   #128
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

Both times we've beaten Indy there has a been an obvious difference in strategy from basically if not all the other times we lost. Have we ever tried to play it that way IN Indy? Not with Foster on the roster we haven't. We now have another bona-fide FB and it's past time to march into Indy and just ram it down their throats.

Once every 10 minutes of game time or so, their D can take a 30 second break while Luck gets re-aquainted with Watt.
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Old 08-14-2013   #129
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

Keenum was:

2-1 against B12
1-0 against SEC
1-0 against B10
1-1 against P12

Winning or split records in each case.

He can't schedule teams to play against himself.

And if the SEC/B12 brewed the finest QB's by default
Jamarcus and VY would have been competing in the
superbowl last year -- Not Flacco (Div I-AA) or
Kapernic (Mtn. West)

TJ


Quote:
Originally Posted by JCTexan View Post
Highest level of what? College? He wasn't consistently beating SEC or Big 12 teams in college.

I have nothing against Keenum, but I'm sure as hell not anointing him because he set records in Conference USA.
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Old 08-14-2013   #130
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legacy_gt View Post
actually you can't call Case a fluke until he plays actual games in the NFL.
You said that because he shattered a whole bunch of NCAA records, you can't call him a fluke because of his offense and size. A lot of guys have shattered NCAA records and then totally crapped out in the NFL. A lot of those guys racked up those records because of the system they were in. Case was in that kind of a system.

A lot of teams didn't want to waste a draft pick on him because of the history of QBs similar to him.

That doesn't mean that Case can't prove all those guys wrong. I really hope he does. I want Case to come in and be a combo of Kurt Warner and Joe Montana. I want case to be a Tom Brady who keeps winning Super Bowls instead of only winning a few early on in his career.

But his college career does not make him a legitimate prospect to be an NFL quarterback. He was not ready for the NFL last year, judging by his pre-season performance. After 1 pre-season game, he looks like he could be an NFL QB. He looked poised and in control. But at this point, he still has to prove himself.
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Old 08-14-2013   #131
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
Actually, you kinda do.

Most of the QBs who have shattered records in college as thoroughly as Case shattered records don't translate to the NFL. Just look at Ware and Klingler or B.J. Symons or Colt Brennan or Harrell or Chang or even Tebow and Vince Young.

There's a reason why QBs like that aren't drafted as high anymore as QBs that work within a "normal" offense in college.
I disagree; many teams NFL teams now run the spread, or the zone read (which is a variation of the spread.) For at least a couple of years, Keenum's offense included a TE or two.

Weeden played in a version of the spread.
Gabbert played in a pure spread (OK, he sucked, but he got drafted high.)

I'm sure if I look for a little while, I can find QBs that ran the spread in college that have been drafted in the first three rounds recently.

E J Manuel is one (not a pure spread); Geno Smith is another (pure spread).
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Old 08-14-2013   #132
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
If I have time, I'll look into this further.

For now, here's a quick comparison.

Keenum 19,217 passing yards on 2,229 attempts.
Chang 17,027 on 2,436.
Big difference.

Keenum 69.36 completion percentage.
Chang 57 per cent.
Another big difference.

Keenum's TD-INT ratio 155/46
Chang 117/80
Huge difference.

Keenum was a heck more accurate and efficient than Chang.
There's no comparison, really.
And the Tom Brady comparison was some how closer than the comparison to guy that was the previous record holder?

Brady:
4982 yards on 665 attempts. 61.5% comp. 31 TD 19 INT
95 rush attempts for -153 yards.


Obviously someone saw something in those 665 attempts for Brady that was not seen in the combined 4665 attempts for the top two all time passing yard leaders.
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Old 08-14-2013   #133
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

TPN, look at teams like the Panthers and the Skins.

They adapted their offense to Newton and RG III.

Remember the knock about Newton; how he never play under center in college (but I counted at least 17 plays that he was under center.)

Case played under center more than that in his Freshman year, but the Cougars eventually went away from that; they still use Keenum under center occasionally in his last two years, similar to how Newton was used or RG III was used.

If Kubiak had decided to mimic Shannahan, Keenum would be the guy who is most comfortable in that system, more so than Schaub or Yates.
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Old 08-14-2013   #134
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
Most of the QBs who have shattered records in college as thoroughly as Case shattered records don't translate to the NFL. Just look at Ware and Klingler or B.J. Symons or Colt Brennan or Harrell or Chang or even Tebow and Vince Young.

There's a reason why QBs like that aren't drafted as high anymore as QBs that work within a "normal" offense in college.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I disagree; many teams NFL teams now run the spread, or the zone read (which is a variation of the spread.) For at least a couple of years, Keenum's offense included a TE or two.
How have any of the all time NCAA passers fared in the NFL?

1. Case Keenum* 19217 2007 2011 Houston
2. Timmy Chang* 17072 2000 2004 Hawaii
3. Landry Jones* 16646 2009 2012 Oklahoma
4. Graham Harrell* 15793 2005 2008 Texas Tech
5. Ty Detmer 15031 1988 1991 Brigham Young
6. Kellen Moore* 14667 2008 2011 Boise State
7. Colt Brennan* 14193 2005 2007 Hawaii
8. Philip Rivers* 13484 2000 2003 North Carolina State
9. Colt McCoy* 13253 2006 2009 Texas
10. Kevin Kolb* 12964 2003 2006 Houston
11. Dan Lefevour* 12905 2006 2009 Central Michigan
12. Tim Rattay 12746 1997 1999 Louisiana Tech
13. Ryan Lindley* 12690 2008 2011 San Diego State
14. Luke McCown 12666 2000 2003 Louisiana Tech
15. Chris Redman 12541 1996 1999 Louisville

An asterisk (*) after a player's name indicates bowl stats are included.

Source: http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/...er-career.html
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Old 08-14-2013   #135
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaL View Post
And the Tom Brady comparison was some how closer than the comparison to guy that was the previous record holder?

Brady:
4982 yards on 665 attempts. 61.5% comp. 31 TD 19 INT
95 rush attempts for -153 yards.


Obviously someone saw something in those 665 attempts for Brady that was not seen in the combined 4665 attempts for the top two all time passing yard leaders.
Papal, there was no comparison made between Brady and Keenum.
I said I brought it up as an example of how a young QB may not be all that in his first few years in the NFL.

Similarly, a young CB like KJax, may not look good when you throw him into the fire right off the bat; but it doesn't mean that he doesn't have the ability to become a good player.

Heck, if you can develop an UDFA like Arian Foster into a good player, your team save a bunch of money for awhile; money that can be put into good use fortifying other positions on the team.
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Old 08-14-2013   #136
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

I could easily make an argument that if Kubiak incorporated some of
the air-raid, hurry-up, stuff Keenum ran in college that the Texans
would be devastating in a 2-minute drill.

(or catching up if they get behind due to turnovers, etc.)

After all, Keenum was the greatest-ever QB statistically when running
that type of offense.

If Shanahan can do it for RGIII, and Harbaugh can do it for Kaepernic,
and even two years ago with Tebow in Denver. (Not that I am a Tebow
fan).

If you game plan for your players' strengths I can't see how you don't
get better.

TJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
TPN, look at teams like the Panthers and the Skins.

They adapted their offense to Newton and RG III.

Remember the knock about Newton; how he never play under center in college (but I counted at least 17 plays that he was under center.)

Case played under center more than that in his Freshman year, but the Cougars eventually went away from that; they still use Keenum under center occasionally in his last two years, similar to how Newton was used or RG III was used.

If Kubiak had decided to mimic Shannahan, Keenum would be the guy who is most comfortable in that system, more so than Schaub or Yates.
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Old 08-14-2013   #137
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaL View Post
How have any of the all time NCAA passers fared in the NFL?

1. Case Keenum* 19217 2007 2011 Houston
2. Timmy Chang* 17072 2000 2004 Hawaii
3. Landry Jones* 16646 2009 2012 Oklahoma
4. Graham Harrell* 15793 2005 2008 Texas Tech
5. Ty Detmer 15031 1988 1991 Brigham Young
6. Kellen Moore* 14667 2008 2011 Boise State
7. Colt Brennan* 14193 2005 2007 Hawaii
8. Philip Rivers* 13484 2000 2003 North Carolina State
9. Colt McCoy* 13253 2006 2009 Texas
10. Kevin Kolb* 12964 2003 2006 Houston
11. Dan Lefevour* 12905 2006 2009 Central Michigan
12. Tim Rattay 12746 1997 1999 Louisiana Tech
13. Ryan Lindley* 12690 2008 2011 San Diego State
14. Luke McCown 12666 2000 2003 Louisiana Tech
15. Chris Redman 12541 1996 1999 Louisville

An asterisk (*) after a player's name indicates bowl stats are included.

Source: http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/...er-career.html
If your point is that a succesful college career doesn't automatically equate a succesful NFL career, I get it. I have never said otherwise.

Stats mean nothing.
You need to watch how they play, what they have to work with, the caliber of the opponents.
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Old 08-14-2013   #138
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

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Kubiak is not one to mislead the fans either.
Yeah... we're obviously talking about two totally different people.
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Old 08-14-2013   #139
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Papal, there was no comparison made between Brady and Keenum.
I said I brought it up as an example of how a young QB may not be all that in his first few years in the NFL.

Similarly, a young CB like KJax, may not look good when you throw him into the fire right off the bat; but it doesn't mean that he doesn't have the ability to become a good player.

Heck, if you can develop an UDFA like Arian Foster into a good player, your team save a bunch of money for awhile; money that can be put into good use fortifying other positions on the team.
That I can concur with!
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Old 08-14-2013   #140
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Default Re: Post-Preseason Wk 1; Tj or Case?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
You said that because he shattered a whole bunch of NCAA records, you can't call him a fluke because of his offense and size. A lot of guys have shattered NCAA records and then totally crapped out in the NFL. A lot of those guys racked up those records because of the system they were in. Case was in that kind of a system.

A lot of teams didn't want to waste a draft pick on him because of the history of QBs similar to him.

That doesn't mean that Case can't prove all those guys wrong. I really hope he does. I want Case to come in and be a combo of Kurt Warner and Joe Montana. I want case to be a Tom Brady who keeps winning Super Bowls instead of only winning a few early on in his career.

But his college career does not make him a legitimate prospect to be an NFL quarterback. He was not ready for the NFL last year, judging by his pre-season performance. After 1 pre-season game, he looks like he could be an NFL QB. He looked poised and in control. But at this point, he still has to prove himself.
you can't just call keenum a fluke just because he shattered records on a C-USA team and his size and didn't get drafted. nobody can at this point because he hasn't played an nfl game. a fluke would be a jamarcus russel, tim couch, or troy smith. Keenum hasn't gotten to that point where he's had any chance to prove anything
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