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Old 08-07-2013   #41
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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Originally Posted by ATXtexanfan View Post
Its amazing what coaching can do
^^^^
This

KJ should thank God every day that Wade and Vance were hired.

That and the fact that BoB finally spent some money in FA on JoJo and Manning. This allowed KJ to develop properly. Something that I didn't think KJ had the ability to do. (Develop)
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Old 08-07-2013   #42
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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It's not a secret. When a guy can't play corner in his third year, how can he be Pro-Ready as a rookie. Take a deep breath and think about it.
LOL, you think about it. The guy has a skill set that allowed him to be successful right out of the gate. He doesn't have other skill sets. Good coaches put players in positions to succeed.

You think Ronde Barber can play man? You think Nnamdi Asomugha can play zone?

My entire point was pro ready means step in on day one and contribute. McCourty did that. KJ contributed to the opponents.

And as I said earlier, none of this matters.
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Old 08-07-2013   #43
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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... Good coaches put players in positions to succeed.
....
Are you trying to compare Belichick to the not ready for Katy high school coaching staff of Frank Bush and David Gibbs. These 2 could coach the 84 Bears or 2000 Ravens in to the toilet.

And Belichick slipped up on McCourty in the second year.
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Old 08-08-2013   #44
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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LOL, you think about it. The guy has a skill set that allowed him to be successful right out of the gate. He doesn't have other skill sets. Good coaches put players in positions to succeed.

You think Ronde Barber can play man? You think Nnamdi Asomugha can play zone?

My entire point was pro ready means step in on day one and contribute. McCourty did that. KJ contributed to the opponents.

And as I said earlier, none of this matters.
Come on eriadoc. The fact that Belichik had another guy to help out McCourty on a majority of the plays mean that he wasn't Pro-Ready.

If the Texans had the same scheme for Jackson, he would have looked much much better.

One guy plays on the sand slot all by himself; the other with a baby sitter, and you're telling me the guy with a baby sitter holding his hands "Pro-ready"?

His own fans were glad they switched him to safety, and you're telling me he's "Pro-ready"?
It doesn't make any sense, dude.
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Old 08-08-2013   #45
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
These were always my thoughts on Kareem. He was always good with short routes and could tackle pretty well. He just needed some experience in the NFL against deep routes. I was telling people to just wait for him to develop.
I agree with this, more so than to say he was awful. There were some things he did well, some things he didn't. Same with McCourty & Glover Quin. The Patriots coaches did a better job of asking McCourty to do what he was good at, as well as the players around him did a better job around him.

In 2009, our coaches did a better job of asking Glover to do the things he was good at & didn't ask him to do things he was not good at. You rarely saw Glover singled up on anyone more than 20 yards out.

It's possible that our coaches saw McCourty & Glover as safeties, so when they said most pro-ready corner available, even with hindsight, I believe they were more right than not. McCourty is not a CB in this league. He wasn't his rookie year & he isn't now.

There's no doubt in my mind Kareem would have had a much better rookie season if we were able to generate the pressure we did in 2009 or 2011, or if he had someone like Manning or Glover to back him up, or if Eugene Wilson had another good year in him, or if we had Dunta to play the #1 Receiver where we could cheat to Kareem's side.

But even as a rookie, 6 to 7 times out of 10, receivers could not get off the line with Kareem in front of him. But we "focused" on the 30% of the times that the receiver got a free release, whether they beat him or he fell down. & once they got past him, he wasn't catching them & he had no "last line of defense" so those plays would turn into big plays.

& I can't count how many times I saw two receivers lined up on the same side of the field & you knew they were going to run crossing routes. Our DBs would "always" maintain the same depth & when the receivers would cross, the DBs would run into each other.

That could've been Kareem screwing up, being the new guy. But if the other DB, who had more experience, didn't adjust his depth, or tell Kareem to adjust his depth... or if the coaches didn't catch it & address it during the week, tell them to adjust from straight man to the inside man defending the inside route & the outside man defending the outside route... because it happened again & again & again I don't think they fixed it until very late that season, or early the following season... but yeah, I'm sure some of the blame should have been on Kareem for stuff like that, but he had a whole support sysem, that imo failed him.
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Old 08-08-2013   #46
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
LOL, you think about it. The guy has a skill set that allowed him to be successful right out of the gate. He doesn't have other skill sets. Good coaches put players in positions to succeed.

You think Ronde Barber can play man? You think Nnamdi Asomugha can play zone?

My entire point was pro ready means step in on day one and contribute. McCourty did that. KJ contributed to the opponents.

And as I said earlier, none of this matters.
Have to agree. It matters little to nothing. Trying to compare or tear down McCourty isn't needed to justify Kareem's selection. Both players are now essential to their team secondaries as simple as that. McCourty started off that way because he was utilized correctly for his skillset.

And not being able to handle one style over another doesn't make you pro-ready. Being pro-ready means able to step in and contribute immediately where you aren't overwhelmed by the mechanics of the level of competition, game speed and you fit an nfl pro system. Doesn't mean you must fit into every system.

A lot of corners have a strength in one coverage over another. I know I did and I played the position for years. Some excel in press but if you ask them to play off the receiver they show issues maintaining. Some can play man and are weak in zone, while some player cover 2 better than say cover 3. It is on the coaches to put the player in a position to excel or develop the player to fit their own scheme. Obviously Bush could not do that and Wade is doing it.

So just because McCourty struggled in press didn't make him less pro-ready. He had already displayed he was capable of dealing with speed of the game and the mechanics involved. He just has his strength and weaknesses like several players in the league.
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Old 08-08-2013   #47
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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That could've been Kareem screwing up, being the new guy. But if the other DB, who had more experience, didn't adjust his depth, or tell Kareem to adjust his depth... or if the coaches didn't catch it & address it during the week, tell them to adjust from straight man to the inside man defending the inside route & the outside man defending the outside route... because it happened again & again & again I don't think they fixed it until very late that season, or early the following season... but yeah, I'm sure some of the blame should have been on Kareem for stuff like that, but he had a whole support sysem, that imo failed him.
Those same DB's were respectable the year before. They were a part of the team having it's first winning season and everyone was excited about What Pollard brought to the secondary.

This was my main problem with the Kareem arguments. Even Kareem's current coach came in and said he needed a lot of work. VJ said himself that Kareem was good in the first 10-15 yards but was not very good after that (and that was after some had been saying that for well over a year already).

I disagree with all the film study stuff 76 did, and I still do. I'm not saying those other DB's were perfect, but there is absolutely 0 way you can look at film of the DB's as a fan and definitively decipher which player should have done what. So I don't buy that all the DB's on the team were failing Kareem, when we had raggedy Dunta out there the year before and the DB's weren't that bad.

Now I do blame the coaches for putting him out there as a rookie and not teaching him proper technique. I blame the coaches in general for the lack of talent in that front seven not generating much of a pass rush to help the DB's out.

But Kareem was not good his first year, he was a bit better the next year but still not full time starting caliber...He was awesome last season. Same surrounding DB's as the year before, better Kareem because HE improved.
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Old 08-08-2013   #48
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
These were always my thoughts on Kareem. He was always good with short routes and could tackle pretty well. He just needed some experience in the NFL against deep routes. I was telling people to just wait for him to develop.
From the time KJ got here his strength was his tackling. I recall posting - during one of many bash KJ threads - that a corner has another job that's almost as important as having good cover skills and that's how he does against the run. KJ was fearless when coming up and forcing RBs back inside if not knifing in to make the tackle himself.

Weak cover skills can be schemed around if not too awful. But the inability of your CBs to force the run back inside where they have help... that's a lot harder to hide.
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Old 08-08-2013   #49
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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A lot of corners have a strength in one coverage over another. I know I did and I played the position for years. Some excel in press but if you ask them to play off the receiver they show issues maintaining. Some can play man and are weak in zone, while some player cover 2 better than say cover 3. It is on the coaches to put the player in a position to excel or develop the player to fit their own scheme. Obviously Bush could not do that and Wade is doing it.

So just because McCourty struggled in press didn't make him less pro-ready. He had already displayed he was capable of dealing with speed of the game and the mechanics involved. He just has his strength and weaknesses like several players in the league.
The problem with this argument is that Belichik wanted to start leaving McCourty on island a little more toward the end of his rookie year and he couldn't handle it.

Again, Belichik wanted to do it in McCourty's second year; he still couldn't handle it, which prompted the move to safety.

It wasn't that Belichik didn't want McCourty to be able to play man, but that he had a good plan to try to bring McCourty along while Bush threw Jackson out to the wolves.

Even Kubiak had to admitted in the off-season, particular at the combine when he was asked about it. Kubiak admitted that the coaches put Jackson in some precarious positions.

Again, why did you guys think both safeties were let go?
If they had done their jobs, they would have been retained.
What was the first thing Wade did when he came in?
He let them safeties go; they brought in Manning and moved Quin to safety.
If Wade didn't think Jackson has the making of a good CB, he would have let Quin stay at CB and moved Jackson to safety. After all, Jackson had clearly demonstrated that he has the skill set to play safety. He plays help defense very well. He can play facing the ball; he's physical and can tackle well.

Some of you guys were tearing Jackson down; I was only putting out the facts about McCourty; facts that are supported by the Pats fans and the media up there who are glad that Belichik finally moved him to safety.

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Old 08-08-2013   #50
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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Those same DB's were respectable the year before. They were a part of the team having it's first winning season and everyone was excited about What Pollard brought to the secondary.

This was my main problem with the Kareem arguments. Even Kareem's current coach came in and said he needed a lot of work. VJ said himself that Kareem was good in the first 10-15 yards but was not very good after that (and that was after some had been saying that for well over a year already).

I disagree with all the film study stuff 76 did, and I still do. I'm not saying those other DB's were perfect, but there is absolutely 0 way you can look at film of the DB's as a fan and definitively decipher which player should have done what. So I don't buy that all the DB's on the team were failing Kareem, when we had raggedy Dunta out there the year before and the DB's weren't that bad.

Now I do blame the coaches for putting him out there as a rookie and not teaching him proper technique. I blame the coaches in general for the lack of talent in that front seven not generating much of a pass rush to help the DB's out.

But Kareem was not good his first year, he was a bit better the next year but still not full time starting caliber...He was awesome last season. Same surrounding DB's as the year before, better Kareem because HE improved.
Who said anything about Jackson being good in his first year, or even his second year? My whole point was that he didn't suck ball, just like when I opined that Myers didn't suck ball.

They both had their bad plays.
They both suffered further by the poor plays around them.

We all know what Pollard can bring, and that was laying wood.
It wasn't new that he was lacking in coverage at the time he arrived in Houston.
That was already discussed at the time.

If you remember, I had brought up plays from time to time with the new secondary. There had been some poor plays as well; like when one of the safeties stepped down and left the post wide open, allowing big TDs that Joseph can't prevent. Those are the same plays that Jackson were maligned for several times.
There was the INT that Jackson made to "save" Joseph, coming from all the way from the other side; that was another play that Jackson was picked on.

There were also good plays when the safeties, either Manning or Quin played it correctly and supported their CBs on time.
There were also plays that Joseph helped Jackson and vice versa.
Joseph came over and knocked the slot out of a few receivers, and Jackson did the same for Joseph.
Or the play when the Texans baited the offense with Jackson leaving the slot receiver and cut underneath the outside receiver to make the INT.
When people said that Aso can cover half of the field himself, it was an exaggeration; he did it with the help from another defender from time to time.
It is still a team game. It doesn't mean that the safety(ies) roll away from Aso on every play. That only happened when he plays for an outside release and use the side line as an extra defender. The same thing applies to either Joseph and Jackson.
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Old 08-08-2013   #51
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

There's elements on both sides, but when you move a CB to safety it's because he can't play CB well enough. CB > Safeties. Look where they are drafted and look at average salaries.
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Old 08-08-2013   #52
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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Old 08-08-2013   #53
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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Those same DB's were respectable the year before. They were a part of the team having it's first winning season and everyone was excited about What Pollard brought to the secondary.
You didn't see a drop off in Eugene Wilson's play between 2009 & 2010? Or maybe there wasn't a drop off, but he was much more effective when the DL was getting the pressure it did in 2009 than it did in 2010.

& we used Pollard totally different in 2009 than we did in 2010. I'm surprised you didn't notice that either.

Baltimore has used Reed the way we did in 2009. When he is used in coverage his effectiveness comes way down.

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This was my main problem with the Kareem arguments. Even Kareem's current coach came in and said he needed a lot of work. VJ said himself that Kareem was good in the first 10-15 yards but was not very good after that (and that was after some had been saying that for well over a year already).
& I've said no different. Every rookie coming into the NFL will need a lot of work. It is one of the more difficult positions to learn.

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Now I do blame the coaches for putting him out there as a rookie and not teaching him proper technique. I blame the coaches in general for the lack of talent in that front seven not generating much of a pass rush to help the DB's out.
It's no different than Colin Kaepernick, Russell Wilson, & RG3. Their coaches designed their offenses around what they were good at & hid their weaknesses. In 2013, there's going to be less of that & they are going to have to improve.

The Patriots found what McCourty was good at & designed his role around what he could do & hid what he couldn't do. Year two they asked him to evolve, to get better as a Cornerback & he couldn't.

Kareem was put in a bad situation, the coaches expected him to do things most NFL corners can't, play man coverage on an island for the majority of his snaps. He got a new set of coaches who took him back to square 1. Found what he was good at & asked him to do that. They also put a good cast around him, better safeties in Glover Quin & Manning. They improved the CB playing the other side of the field & they "fixed" the pass rush.

Year three, they expected more of him & he delivered.

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But Kareem was not good his first year, he was a bit better the next year but still not full time starting caliber...He was awesome last season. Same surrounding DB's as the year before, better Kareem because HE improved.
Maybe you're getting me mixed up with someone else. I never said anything about him not getting better. I never said he was an All-pro as a rookie.

I've always said he played about as well as you can expect a rookie to play. Had he been on another team.... the 2009 Texans or the 2010 Patriots, he would not have got the bad rep he did as a rookie on the 2010 historically bad Texans defense.

Some people said he'll never get better. I said he's got the tools & he's mentally tough. If he doesn't lose his confidence, I think he'll be a #1 CB in this league. I said that in 2010 (more or less).
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Old 08-08-2013   #54
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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The problem with this argument is that Belichik wanted to start leaving McCourty on island a little more toward the end of his rookie year and he couldn't handle it.

Again, Belichik wanted to do it in McCourty's second year; he still couldn't handle it, which prompted the move to safety.

It wasn't that Belichik didn't want McCourty to be able to play man, but that he had a good plan to try to bring McCourty along while Bush threw Jackson out to the wolves.

Even Kubiak had to admitted in the off-season, particular at the combine when he was asked about it. Kubiak admitted that the coaches put Jackson in some precarious positions.

Some of you guys were tearing Jackson down; I was only putting out the facts about McCourty; facts that are supported by the Pats fans and the media up there who are glad that Belichik finally moved him to safety.
You're reaching by trying to say you know the precise reason why Belichek moved him to safety especially since Bill doesn't divulge that type of info in the first place. He seldom let's anything go or misdirects. In fact, some of the info out there points to the main reason being due to injuries since they were rather thin at the position at the time and feeling he had the capabiity to play it.

Reaching on the end of his rookie year as well. He allowed not even 50 yards receiving on him in his last 8 games except one (62 yards allowed) so he didn't show any issue toward the end. The longest reception he allowed was 24 yards during that time as well.

And of course if Belichek didn't think he could play corner at all he wouldn't have turned around and again played the spot in 2012 where he got over 500 snaps til Talib was acquired. And then he played it a couple of more days during camp. In other words, Belichek sees him as flexible and capable in both areas (this is somthing he actually does state). He may be better at one over the other but doesn't mean he isn't able.

I already stated the difference in coaching has a effect so nothing to add there.

Now saying your 'facts' are proven by the media and fans is also a reach. There are mixed opinions out there from fans. I saw one poll illustrating that most want him to play both spots i.e. Charles Woodson while the second place vote leader was leaving him at corner. So those opinions (which is al they are) went both ways.

Same for the media. I saw one article saying he should stay at corner. I saw another saying stay at safety. So using these as 'facts' is a bit far fetched. It's an opinion one way or another.

And of course there is the biggest question of why does it even matter? He's not a Texan so how he is progressing means jack crap. Only care about how Texans progress.
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Old 08-08-2013   #55
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

OK, Deuce, I call a truce.

I need something else to do.
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Old 08-10-2013   #56
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Talking Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

Yeah....I remember all the Texan fans who hated Kareem...(now they hate Schuab).....its funny how the goat on the team changes......
Its sad actually that there are some non intelligent Texan fans who have no grasp of what is actually going on and were going to get rid of the guy after 1 season....ready to just say...."wasted pIck".....those fans now are going....."best cb ever".....funny as hell actually......
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Old 08-10-2013   #57
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rush2112mn View Post
Yeah....I remember all the Texan fans who hated Kareem...(now they hate Schuab).....its funny how the goat on the team changes......
Its sad actually that there are some non intelligent Texan fans who have no grasp of what is actually going on and were going to get rid of the guy after 1 season....ready to just say...."wasted pIck".....those fans now are going....."best cb ever".....funny as hell actually......
Atleast i admitted i was wrong. And come on man he didnt have one of the worst rookie years i have ever seen.
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Old 08-10-2013   #58
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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Atleast i admitted i was wrong. And come on man he didnt have one of the worst rookie years i have ever seen.
Yeah....well everyone calling in every week to sports talk wanted him gone.....all the booing he got every game......and the sports writers as well....they all gave up on him.....
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Old 08-10-2013   #59
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

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Originally Posted by rush2112mn View Post
Yeah....well everyone calling in every week to sports talk wanted him gone.....all the booing he got every game......and the sports writers as well....they all gave up on him.....
Let it go.

We're going to win the Super Bowl this year. Looking back only makes it harder.
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Old 08-10-2013   #60
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Default Re: Remember when we all hated Kareem Jackson?

I hated on him and publicly praised both KJ and 76Texan for their beliefs in KJ. As of right now, he has it to do again. One good year doesn't make a great player. I hope he picks up where he left off and QB's simply have nowhere to the throw the ball.
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