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Old 07-16-2013   #41
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
If Peyton is clutch, what does that make Schaub?
Not sure anyone's ever argued that Peyton was clutch. The knock on him since his college days has been that he isn't clutch. He finally broke through with a Super Bowl, so people don't harp on it as much, but I also don't hear this effusive praise of his clutch play, either. His brother, on the other hand, seems to have the clutch moniker so far.
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Old 07-16-2013   #42
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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Not sure anyone's ever argued that Peyton was clutch. The knock on him since his college days has been that he isn't clutch. He finally broke through with a Super Bowl, so people don't harp on it as much, but I also don't hear this effusive praise of his clutch play, either. His brother, on the other hand, seems to have the clutch moniker so far.
I wouldn't call a 6-5 play-offs records as clutch either, especially when you look at the scoreboard. Look at the Giants defense to see how many points they allowed in all those eleven games.

The most they ever allowed was 23 points.

If you tell me the Texans D can perform as well as the Giants Defense, I'll say if Schaub fails then he's garbage.
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Old 07-16-2013   #43
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I wouldn't call a 6-5 play-offs records as clutch either ...
I'm not sure any record has anything to do with "clutch". Clutch is a very nebulous term used to describe the seeming ability to come up big when it matters most, a la the key passes that EManning has managed to pull off when it mattered most. But if you want to get into a dissection of what clutch is or isn't, it also doesn't take into account the crappy play that a QB may have done in order to let his team fall behind. If the defense gives up 28 points and the team is losing 28-3, that's not all on the defense. If it was 28-24, it's a different story.

So in the end, clutch is kind of a silly argument altogether. But for whatever that argument's worth, I don't see a lot of people labeling Peyton as clutch. So I refute your straw man.
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Old 07-16-2013   #44
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
We won 13 games in 2012. Schaub has won way more of the games he started in the last 2 years than he lost, or didn't close. That also includes against play off caliber teams.
How many big games has he won?

Games that would clinch HFA?

Playoff games?

This yr is the yr that we will learn alot about Schaub and his health. (1st place schedule, NFC West) playing against really good/great defenses. I'm just hoping Schaub's foot holds out for a full season, I've got my doubts
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Old 07-16-2013   #45
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
How many big games has he won?

Games that would clinch HFA?

Playoff games?

This yr is the yr that we will learn alot about Schaub and his health. (1st place schedule, NFC West) playing against really good/great defenses. I'm just hoping Schaub's foot holds out for a full season, I've got my doubts


How many opportunities has he had in each area you are asking about?
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Old 07-16-2013   #46
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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You take away their defense & their running game & Eli, Ben, Flacco, Ryan, & Rivers ain't done anything Schaub hasn't. Hard for me to put those guys in a tier higher than Schaub.
Have to disagree on quote and post a bit. What they have done that he hasn't is have clutch moments in crucial situations/games. Schaub has yet to have those moments at this point (kind of hard when your team is getting waxed each year til now). He still has the opportunity but saying he has done what they have is just a stretch imo (some of them that is). Schaub is the type that needs things to go a certain way to be successful in prime situations. He's a system guy. Not a bad thing but some of those you just named can make plays when it breaks down.

You say take away running game and defense...well when Eli won the Superbowl he had one of the least productive running games in the league (dead last) and a bad defense (27th yards, 25th scoring). He carried that team. Luckily, the defense rose their game in the playoffs but it was Eli carrying it through the year. Can we say that Schaub can do that?

The 4,000 yard seasons are nice but having moments you pull off the play despite the odds in crucial games are even bigger. Til Schaub can do that, he will not be in the category with guys who actually have done it on the field. Just like I wouldn't put Stafford up there despite having a 5k season one darn near it again. He hasn't shown the ability to make that crucial play. Well...other than heaving it up and saying 'Hey, Calvin! Bail me out!'

I also can't get on the 'Brady wouldn't have won a Bowl here' train either. The difference of a Brady to a Schaub is Brady elevates the play of those around him. He has had medicore receivers most of his years but made it work. He has had some years with average or bottom half defenses but found his success. He has had no name running backs but made it work. So there's no real way to guarantee what Brady would or wouldn't do.

As for my opinion on the Jaws thing...eh. Not big on ranking. All I care about is he good enough to win a Superbowl and in that regard I think he is. Most here seem to think you either have to hate him or love him but honestly I don't hold that stance. I think he is capable and solid. He's not great and I'm not going to put on Bulls colored glasses to think so. Not going to exaggerate his short comings either. If Flacco can put it together to get it done I see no reason Schaub can't. He just needs things to fall in line more than some.
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Old 07-16-2013   #47
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I was about to write the same thing, concerning Romo. I'm not so high on Rivers. Romo is the type of QB I'd like to have, but I'd be hoping Kubiak can whip the crazy out of him. Maybe he can, who knows?
I think part of Romo's problem is that it's a freak show in Dallas. We've seen it before where guys will do better in systems with more structure and less lee way for foolishness.

Look how bad Alex Smith was under all those bad coaches he had when it was chaos around there. Then Harbaugh comes in and implements a real system and gets the best out of the guy. I think certain coaches get more out of players (or specific positions). I think Kubiak has that going with his QB's.
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Old 07-16-2013   #48
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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Originally Posted by 2012Champs View Post
How many opportunities has he had in each area you are asking about?
He had 3 chances to clinch HFA last yr. Schaub took last yrs team as far as Yates did the yr before. This speaks volumes to me.

in 2009 despite one of the easiest schedules ever made he couldn't get the team over the hump and into the playoffs like the elite QB's do.

I like Schaub, but I believe he's damaged goods, who will do well to make it though the season, much less play at a high level late in the season. Not that any of this is his fault.
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Old 07-16-2013   #49
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Peyton Manning's play-offs record is 9-11; Schaub's is 1-1

If Peyton is clutch, what does that make Schaub?
A playoff newbie.
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Old 07-16-2013   #50
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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He had 3 chances to clinch HFA last yr. Schaub took last yrs team as far as Yates did the yr before. This speaks volumes to me.

in 2009 despite one of the easiest schedules ever made he couldn't get the team over the hump and into the playoffs like the elite QB's do.

I like Schaub, but I believe he's damaged goods, who will do well to make it though the season, much less play at a high level late in the season. Not that any of this is his fault.
2009 you say ?

The year that we had a trio of Steve Slaton, Chris Brown and Ryan Moats taking the lion share of touches at RB for a whopping avg. of 3.5 ypc?

The year we had Jacque Reeves, Eugene Wilson and Bernard Pollard all starting in our secondary....along with a rookie named Glover Quinn?

The year Kris Brown himself screwed us out of at least 2 wins with his inept kicking?

I also seem to recall some scrub named Amobi Okoye still starting at DT and routinely getting pancaked in the interior of our d-line as well.

save for the next year where our defense bottomed out, You might want to revise your statement and say that our "easy" schedule was the only reason our defense wasn't the worst in the league that year/ever and that if not for Schaub and the passing offense, we don't even come as close as we did to making the playoffs.
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Old 07-16-2013   #51
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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I'm not sure any record has anything to do with "clutch". Clutch is a very nebulous term used to describe the seeming ability to come up big when it matters most, a la the key passes that EManning has managed to pull off when it mattered most. But if you want to get into a dissection of what clutch is or isn't, it also doesn't take into account the crappy play that a QB may have done in order to let his team fall behind. If the defense gives up 28 points and the team is losing 28-3, that's not all on the defense. If it was 28-24, it's a different story.

So in the end, clutch is kind of a silly argument altogether. But for whatever that argument's worth, I don't see a lot of people labeling Peyton as clutch. So I refute your straw man.
It really is not a straw man argument, eriadoc.

What I merely like to point out (or make note of) is that it's still a team game.
It's not like basketball, and even in basketball, it's not easy to find that many clutch players.

In football, you need your ST not to suck and a pretty decent defense (or very good) to win big.
It is a common equation for the teams that won the SB.

When your ST and your D can allow the O with chances, they (the O) have a better chance to pull it off.

You need all 3 phases to go deep into the play-offs; that is the norm.
A QB that you pay a lot for reduces the average for you to field other positions on the team.

All I'm saying is that the Texans D underperformed last year due to injuries; Schaub was supposed to performed as a 8-12 ranked QB in the league; he fell a bit short on that end, but only because the D and the special team did not play up to their part.

If you remember, I rated Schaub somewhere in the 11-15th category.

To have a better indication of how good a QB is, we need to keep the other variables somewhat in constant (the combination of the D and the ST).
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Old 07-16-2013   #52
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
He had 3 chances to clinch HFA last yr. Schaub took last yrs team as far as Yates did the yr before. This speaks volumes to me.

Speaks volumes that you credit Yates for a lot of work the Schaub did

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
in 2009 despite one of the easiest schedules ever made he couldn't get the team over the hump and into the playoffs like the elite QB's do.

Again thats on Schaub?



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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
I like Schaub, but I believe he's damaged goods, who will do well to make it though the season, much less play at a high level late in the season. Not that any of this is his fault.

Id like to see him perform better late as well
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Old 07-16-2013   #53
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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It really is not a straw man argument, eriadoc.

What I merely like to point out (or make note of) is that it's still a team game.
It's not like basketball, and even in basketball, it's not easy to find that many clutch players.

In football, you need your ST not to suck and a pretty decent defense (or very good) to win big.
It is a common equation for the teams that won the SB.

When your ST and your D can allow the O with chances, they (the O) have a better chance to pull it off.

You need all 3 phases to go deep into the play-offs; that is the norm.
A QB that you pay a lot for reduces the average for you to field other positions on the team.

All I'm saying is that the Texans D underperformed last year due to injuries; Schaub was supposed to performed as a 8-12 ranked QB in the league; he fell a bit short on that end, but only because the D and the special team did not play up to their part.

If you remember, I rated Schaub somewhere in the 11-15th category.

To have a better indication of how good a QB is, we need to keep the other variables somewhat in constant (the combination of the D and the ST).
The Texans offense scored 1 td in 16 qtrs at the end of the yr, but the only reason the Texans fell short of their goals was because of the offense. LOL

Maybe just maybe the offense was very poor. Did you notice that the Texans selecte 2 WR's/2 OT's, one high and one low and a TE in this yrs draft. Appartently Gary thought the offense was a big part of the problem judging by how the Texans drafted this past April.
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Old 07-16-2013   #54
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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Have to disagree on quote and post a bit.
Good post.
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What they have done that he hasn't is have clutch moments in crucial situations/games. Schaub has yet to have those moments at this point (kind of hard when your team is getting waxed each year til now). He still has the opportunity but saying he has done what they have is just a stretch imo (some of them that is). Schaub is the type that needs things to go a certain way to be successful in prime situations. He's a system guy. Not a bad thing but some of those you just named can make plays when it breaks down.
The Giants were lucky to get into the play-offs @ 9-7.... Eli was clutch because he won that last game against the Cowboys...

Schaub got his team to 9-7, doesn't mean much because we weren't going to win our division with 9-7, much less a wild-card.

It's all relative. It's all about opportunity. If we got into the play offs in 2009, Schaub may have surprised us all. But he didn't. I'm not saying we should go on the "ifs" just understand opportunities are presented & remembered in all sorts of context.


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You say take away running game and defense...well when Eli won the Superbowl he had one of the least productive running games in the league (dead last) and a bad defense (27th yards, 25th scoring). He carried that team. Luckily, the defense rose their game in the playoffs but it was Eli carrying it through the year. Can we say that Schaub can do that?
Again, if Brian Cushing would have come back in time for the play offs we'd have seen a different defense than the one that fell off at the end of last season, just like the Giants saw a different defense when JPP & Kiwanuka got back into the line-up.

Eli did a good job to get his team to 9-7 winning his division... but they were 9-7. If the Cowboys or the Eagles were as good as the 2009 Colts, nobody would be talking about the 2011 Giants.

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The 4,000 yard seasons are nice but having moments you pull off the play despite the odds in crucial games are even bigger. Til Schaub can do that, he will not be in the category with guys who actually have done it on the field. Just like I wouldn't put Stafford up there despite having a 5k season one darn near it again. He hasn't shown the ability to make that crucial play. Well...other than heaving it up and saying 'Hey, Calvin! Bail me out!'
He's also got Romo, Rivers, Cutler, RG3, Russell Wilson & Cam Newton in that tier....

What am I missing? What have they done?
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I also can't get on the 'Brady wouldn't have won a Bowl here' train either. The difference of a Brady to a Schaub is Brady elevates the play of those around him. He has had medicore receivers most of his years but made it work. He has had some years with average or bottom half defenses but found his success. He has had no name running backs but made it work. So there's no real way to guarantee what Brady would or wouldn't do.
Agree to disagree. But we'll get to that later, in another thread maybe.

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As for my opinion on the Jaws thing...eh. Not big on ranking. All I care about is he good enough to win a Superbowl and in that regard I think he is. Most here seem to think you either have to hate him or love him but honestly I don't hold that stance. I think he is capable and solid. He's not great and I'm not going to put on Bulls colored glasses to think so. Not going to exaggerate his short comings either. If Flacco can put it together to get it done I see no reason Schaub can't. He just needs things to fall in line more than some.
I'm right there with you. If the general feeling was that Schaub is elite, I'd argue against it. Right now, they're arguing that Schaub is garbage.... I can't get behind that.
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Old 07-16-2013   #55
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
He had 3 chances to clinch HFA last yr. Schaub took last yrs team as far as Yates did the yr before. This speaks volumes to me.

in 2009 despite one of the easiest schedules ever made he couldn't get the team over the hump and into the playoffs like the elite QB's do.

I like Schaub, but I believe he's damaged goods, who will do well to make it though the season, much less play at a high level late in the season. Not that any of this is his fault.
Our schedules have been a lot easier since 2009. 2010 was the last time we played a .500 or better schedule.

Focusing on failing to clinch homefield advantage is focusing on the negatives. Overall, the Texans had a wonderful season, lots of accomplishments.

No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. He's not clutch, not Brady.... but he's not hot garbage either. He didn't win those games for us, but he didn't throw them away either.

There's a difference.
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Old 07-16-2013   #56
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

Schaub at nine. I guess i can buy that that. But the top eight better exponentially ( is that how you spell that ). Also that puts him in the divisional round of playoffs at best. His better days past him
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Old 07-16-2013   #57
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

Schaub is my biggest worry for this season. He is definitely not a top ten QB. He is around 13/14 and should be pushed lower if the young QBs continue progressing.
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Old 07-16-2013   #58
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Peyton Manning's play-offs record is 9-11; Schaub's is 1-1

If Peyton is clutch, what does that make Schaub?
Gomer Pyle?
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Old 07-16-2013   #59
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

Quote:
Originally Posted by the wonger need food View Post
http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-re...-qb-countdown/


Not sure what Jaws is looking at, but there it is for your discussion...
Jaws played in the era where hitting the qb was legal and concussions weren't recognized.
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Old 07-17-2013   #60
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Default Re: Jaws: Schaub is NFL's 9th Best QB

I read a lot of the same stuff in these threads and it always ties back to misguided hate. A lot of you hate Schaub and want him removed, what's your solution?

Go get Alex Smith at the end of the season? I promise you Schaub is better.

Let TJ Yates run the show? LOL, I promise that dude sucks. When his rookie contract is up he will likely be out of the NFL if he can't find a team that keeps 3 QBs on the 53 man roster.

Go draft RusWil in the 3rd? I promise a lot of teams have tried for years and haven't done it yet. And let's not give these rookies the Lombardi trophy just yet. I want to see how all of them do in their 2nd year (that includes RG3 and Luck). I've got a lot of money with friends riding on Seahawks missing playoffs.

Go use a 1st round pick on a QB when we have a 2 year window to win a Super Bowl? This leads to a lifetime of mediocrity not addressing key positions when it's time to strike.

Jaws knows football quarterbacks better than most. Jaws stood on top of his desk yelling about how Flacco could make "all the throws" and everyone else just laughed at him and called him an idiot. 1 Super Bowl MVP later people aren't laughing anymore.
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