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Old 07-03-2013   #121
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
Have you met my friend 76? (On the internet, not IRL.) Persistence is his middle and last name. He looks at film, posts what he sees, looks at film, posts what he sees, looks at more film, posts what he sees.

It's an endearing trait once you get used to it but the first couple of times and it's like... wait... what?

He's a good guy, though. Heart's in the right place.
Can we get him to take a look at the income tax code and fix that?
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Old 07-03-2013   #122
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

OK I have never taken LZ as the god some folks have (sorry LZ) but some of y'all are being dicks. Instead of throwing your Vienna sausage on the table, how about just appreciate that he is participating here? His opinion is worth listening to and any winky shrinkage problems are your own. I have seen him do nothing claiming superiority. In contrast some of this "I have watched every game from every player on every team college or NFL" is more than a little tired. Scouts across the league are laughing at the exaggeration.
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Old 07-03-2013   #123
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by LZ View Post
I tell you what.... how about the three of us meet up for a film session with coaching tape from NFL Rewind and I'll let you school me on line play. We can go through inside zone, outside zone, FB responsibilities and reads, when to change MIKE calls. All of that. I'll sit and listen for the first 30 minutes and I won't say a word. I'll just let you guys have the floor. I'll buy the lunch too. Deal?
Thunderkyss and 76Texan yall got called the F out!

LZ if this happens make sure to record it so we can see them making fools of themselves.
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Old 07-03-2013   #124
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by LZ View Post
I tell you what.... how about the three of us meet up for a film session with coaching tape from NFL Rewind and I'll let you school me on line play. We can go through inside zone, outside zone, FB responsibilities and reads, when to change MIKE calls. All of that. I'll sit and listen for the first 30 minutes and I won't say a word. I'll just let you guys have the floor. I'll buy the lunch too. Deal?
If all I gotta do is run my mouth for 30 minutes to get a free lunch, I'm in.


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I know I'm just a guy who "wrote a newspaper article", but I've been talking about o-line play here in Houston and abroad for longer than you give me credit. I never said I knew anything. To the contrary. I said that we all need to slow our roll...

Not sure why you and 76 keep trying to keep this thing alive. I thought I had moved on to suckling pigs.
Again, never meant to insult you. I understand my last post was cold, but I'm replying to a guy who says he'll take your dad's words over 76's


I was just pointing out the conversation was not between your dad & 76Texan.
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Old 07-03-2013   #125
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by LZ View Post
I tell you what.... how about the three of us meet up for a film session with coaching tape from NFL Rewind and I'll let you school me on line play. We can go through inside zone, outside zone, FB responsibilities and reads, when to change MIKE calls. All of that. I'll sit and listen for the first 30 minutes and I won't say a word. I'll just let you guys have the floor. I'll buy the lunch too. Deal?
Can I come...Jut to watch?

I'll even buy my own lunch....
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Old 07-03-2013   #126
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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LZ if this happens make sure to record it so we can see them making fools of themselves.
I ain't scurred. Like I said before, I'm just trying to learn. Look at my posts, I'm saying I don't understand, I think this & this should happen, You said this should happen here, but over here you said that should happen.

Some people got upset & instead of just explaining what they thought was right, they tried to belittle me.

I'm not going to stop asking questions or posting my opinions because someone gets upset his word isn't taken as gospel (not you LZ). Can't learn that way.
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Old 07-03-2013   #127
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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At this point, I'm not even sure who you are arguing with. I don't remember even responding to your last 6 comments. We disagree and that's about it.
I don't really even bother arguing anymore about this stuff. Some people know what they know.

Doesn't really matter though. I appreciate your insight as well as everyone else's ...Including 76...

But when he starts ranting about this and that I just don't even read anymore....I honestly don't care that much...I'll argue to a certain point and then after that...whatever..
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Old 07-03-2013   #128
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I'll buy the lunch too. Deal?
Free lunch??? As long as it isn't from the Discount Sushi Emporium sign me up!
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Old 07-04-2013   #129
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by Texan_Bill View Post
Easy.... Easy.... Easy John!!

First off, I think Lance's Dad has waaaaaay more credence than your personal analysis. He actually did it for a living at the professional level, for many, many, many years.

While you spend many hours studying film (and I appreciate that), I defer to the professionals (i.e. Lance's Dad).
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
Have you met my friend 76? (On the internet, not IRL.) Persistence is his middle and last name. He looks at film, posts what he sees, looks at film, posts what he sees, looks at more film, posts what he sees.

It's an endearing trait once you get used to it but the first couple of times and it's like... wait... what?

He's a good guy, though. Heart's in the right place.
Bill would know that IRL, I'm a very laid back and easy-going person.

But in a discussion, you have to bring everything to the table.

Once I'm convinced by another viewpoint, I gladly concur.
In the meantime, I simply continue to do what I like to do best, which is to watch and learn more about football, a little at a time.

And so I repeat, in one coaching session, Alex Gibbs started by saying that teams would do things differently every year to stay ahead of the game.
He also mentioned that Greg Knapp and other coaches at times don't see things the same way he does.

That right there tells us that a certain technique or scheme can surely vary from year to year.

I've been watching more tapes, and they show me the same thing.

Before last year, the uncovered tackle took a bucket step that doesn't show up in 2012.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ubRSd...%3DubRSdtMwQfw

In this third part of one of Gibbs' series, we can see that step pretty clearly whereas in 2012, it was often not there; the uncovered tackle looks to pivot on his outside toes toward his aiming point rather than lifting his outside foot off the ground.

In all the games I've been reviewing, the covered TE always have a part in the combo block with the OT.
In the video mentioned above, you will notice that on one play, Gibbs wasn't too happy with the TE when he left the combo block a bit too early.

There has been no exception in that observation except for the play that Lance brought up, which was the starting point of this discussion.

For those reasons, I simply cannot agree with Lance and Rey's assertion.
Now, while I have never professed that I know more about O-line play than either one of them, I steadfastly maintain the point that there can be no assertion until we know for sure what the heck the players were supposed to do on that play.

(And remember, originally, I also thought that Newton had a poor first step; however, in that same post, I also said that perhaps the Texans were doing something different.)

I know that I'm an open-minded person; but also, like TK said, one can't learn much by being a sheep. It takes questioning and learnings that arise from those questions to further increase one's knowledge. For me, that will always be the case.

Last edited by 76Texan; 07-04-2013 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 07-04-2013   #130
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Another thing I came away with from that series (which is really obvious), is that Gibbs reiterated one of the points I was saying when he noted something to this extent "you will lose a one-on-one at times, but you have to win on the combo block".

The most importants thing I saw on that play, I had mentioned from the start:

1. The TE has to be more engaged on that block to win the edge.

2. The G & the C have got to be able to move the 3T in that combo blocks.

Those are the keys that can help make the play work.
The concept is much more important than the technique (unless the technique is too sloppy.)

Gibbs himself had said many times over in his different coaching series that a certain O-lineman in his system (even the FB) could be a mismatch against a certain player on the opponent's team.

You work with what you have and a coach, it is your responsibility to put those guys in optimum positions to succeed.
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Old 07-07-2013   #131
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

So I'm watching the Tennessee @ Houston game. 6:16 in the first qtr, 1st & 10. The DE is playing outside Newton, 5 tech. The TE motions to Newton's side, straight up on the DE. At the snap, the TE puts a good block on the DE, turns him so that his shoulders are parallel to the sideline. Newton is able to get under his play side shoulder & the DE has no leverage to stop Newton from taking him where he wants to go, which is several yards from the LOS.

In my mind, that's the way the block (from the original post) is supposed to be executed.

The play didn't go very well (3 yard gain) because Ben Jones did a poor job on the second level, allowing a player to cut Foster down from the backside. Again, there is no backside cut, this time because Myers is manhandled by a LB & Wade Smith's cut block at the LOS impedes Browns ability to contribute.

Now, I'm watching a 3rd & 1 at 5:00 in the 1st qtr. Run to the right, Wade Smith gets blown up by a DT who trips Foster up 3.5 yards in the backfield.... pathetic. This guy should not be starting in 2013.
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Old 07-07-2013   #132
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

If folks were really open minded then this thread wouldn't be 7 pages...

Why are you guys continuing when the person or persons you are speaking to aren't even engaging in the discussion? At this point it is proving to be exactly like infantry stated earlier. You are merely talking to yourself at this point so either take LZ up on his offer and get a free meal out of it or move on. Rey nor LZ are bothering with continuing. Simply agree to disagree.
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Old 07-08-2013   #133
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Great thread. glad to see LZ in here.
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Old 07-08-2013   #134
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Again, never meant to insult you. I understand my last post was cold, but I'm replying to a guy who says he'll take your dad's words over 76's
Who wouldn't? Message Board film watcher over Larry Zierlein? Please tell me you're kidding.
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Old 07-08-2013   #135
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I ain't scurred. Like I said before, I'm just trying to learn. Look at my posts, I'm saying I don't understand, I think this & this should happen, You said this should happen here, but over here you said that should happen.

Some people got upset & instead of just explaining what they thought was right, they tried to belittle me.

I'm not going to stop asking questions or posting my opinions because someone gets upset his word isn't taken as gospel (not you LZ). Can't learn that way.
I did NOT me to seem to belittle you or your thought process. I was just saying that I will take Larry Zierlien, who has spent his entire life coaching OL's in HS, College, NFL over ametuer MB film study guy. I do enjoy what 76 brings to the MB though because he makes me think outside the box many times and whether I agree with him or not it makes for great conversation. Which is what a MB is all about.

Once again I apoligize if I offended you.
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Old 07-08-2013   #136
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I did NOT me to seem to belittle you or your thought process. I was just saying that I will take Larry Zierlien, who has spent his entire life coaching OL's in HS, College, NFL over ametuer MB film study guy. I do enjoy what 76 brings to the MB though because he makes me think outside the box many times and whether I agree with him or not it makes for great conversation. Which is what a MB is all about.

Once again I apoligize if I offended you.
Not you.


Again, this thread would have been totally different if we were talking to Larry Zierlien.

I do appreciate Lance for coming & sharing what he's learned. I hope my quest for better understanding has not discouraged him from sharing.

But if I don't agree, I'm going to say I don't agree & why I don't agree. I've got no problem saying I'm wrong.
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Old 07-08-2013   #137
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Come on guys, this is a MB; anybody can have an opinion on things.

Besides, Lance wasn't even the OP.

The OP posted a link to an article and a video than Lance (not his dad) gave his take.

I disagree with a certain thing he claimed on that play (the video); that Newton allowed too much penetration.

Anybody can go back and watch that play to see that Newton did not allow any penetration. In fact, he gained slightly.

Next, I disagreed with Rey who said that the TE (OD) did his job.
So I pulled up several games and noted all the similar plays, including tapes of the Falcons in which Alex Gibbs himself explained the scheme.
I noted that Gibbs "ragged" on the TE when he abandoned the combo block too soon - and he was on the SDE longer than OD did on that particular play for the Texans.

I am not in disagreement with them on any other point.

The only other thing I noticed was the change in the uncovered OT's first step in 2012 from previous years while I re-watched the game films so I made the notes for anybody who is interested to check to see whether their eyes met mine.

This is not a pissing contest.

Those who are not interested in the conversation don't have to join.

Those who do, I would appreciate for them to point out whether their observations are different than mine or not.
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Old 07-08-2013   #138
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
So I'm watching the Tennessee @ Houston game. 6:16 in the first qtr, 1st & 10. The DE is playing outside Newton, 5 tech. The TE motions to Newton's side, straight up on the DE. At the snap, the TE puts a good block on the DE, turns him so that his shoulders are parallel to the sideline. Newton is able to get under his play side shoulder & the DE has no leverage to stop Newton from taking him where he wants to go, which is several yards from the LOS.

In my mind, that's the way the block (from the original post) is supposed to be executed.

The play didn't go very well (3 yard gain) because Ben Jones did a poor job on the second level, allowing a player to cut Foster down from the backside. Again, there is no backside cut, this time because Myers is manhandled by a LB & Wade Smith's cut block at the LOS impedes Browns ability to contribute.

Now, I'm watching a 3rd & 1 at 5:00 in the 1st qtr. Run to the right, Wade Smith gets blown up by a DT who trips Foster up 3.5 yards in the backfield.... pathetic. This guy should not be starting in 2013.
So you see it the same way I did on the play at 6:16 in the first.
I mentioned about it in post #94.
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Old 08-17-2013   #139
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

OK, Rey, I found this video clip of John Benton.

He can tell you better why I disagreed with you guys about the responsibility of the TE on that running play.

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-medi...e-303514d661b3

Make note of the 1:50 mark where he specifically said how the TE and the RT need to combo on the DE before one of them releasing to the second level.

Also, note the 3:30 mark where he talks about the RB's read.
As the DE played to the outside, Foster needed to turn inside (like I said he should). And Foster did look inside, but as he saw nothing there, he tried to bounce outside. All these things combine to make Newton looked bad, while I don't see him as the problem. It was the other guys on the line on that particular play.

Here's the link to LZ's piece about the particular running play that I had a couple of things I disagreed with (ie. the RT Newton and the TE Daniel):
http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootbal...ysis-included/
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Old 08-18-2013   #140
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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