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Old 06-29-2013   #61
Indy Skinnz
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Since this premise (that the Texans would trade Watt for Luck straight up) - as well as my opposing one (the Texans would NOT make that trade) - are equally unproveable I guess we'll have to call this a draw.

I'll reiterate, Watt is a demonstrated talent, who as the season progressed became the one guy who had to be game planned for ...and STILL he exceled. He may well be the first Texan into the Hall of Fame (I know, I know... it should be A.J. but the HoF voters seem to diss WRs)

Luck is a could-be/should be star who was drafted high, with much ballyhoo, but, stat-wise anyway, was kind of a bust.

As someone else pointed out, premier pass-rushers are just as hard to come by as premier passers. Whether you'd trade one to get the other straight up (thereby leaving a big@$$ hole no matter which one you lose) is a function of where your team is perceived to be lacking.

Kubiak & McNair seem to have faith in Schaub. At the moment. I doubt they'd trade Watt for Luck at this point in time.

If we still had Carr as our starter, you'd have a much better argument.
Sorry to revive a dated thread that is nothing but message board fantasy stuff but it is the off season and I am bored.

How about asking the question this way - if all 4 AFC South teams were starting over and had their choice of any player, who goes first - Luck or Watt? Personally, I think the answer is pretty clear.

The reality is both teams have a young player who is or will be special.
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Old 06-29-2013   #62
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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Originally Posted by Indy Skinnz View Post
Sorry to revive a dated thread that is nothing but message board fantasy stuff but it is the off season and I am bored.

How about asking the question this way - if all 4 AFC South teams were starting over and had their choice of any player, who goes first - Luck or Watt? Personally, I think the answer is pretty clear.

The reality is both teams have a young player who is or will be special.
No Brainer - gotta go with the young, franchise QB. Happy Indy ?
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Old 06-29-2013   #63
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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Sorry to revive a dated thread that is nothing but message board fantasy stuff but it is the off season and I am bored.

How about asking the question this way - if all 4 AFC South teams were starting over and had their choice of any player, who goes first - Luck or Watt? Personally, I think the answer is pretty clear.

The reality is both teams have a young player who is or will be special.
Yes, as I said previously, this is a red herring.

Luck would be taken based on (a) the importance of the position and (b) his potential.

That said, Watt's a better player than Luck is right now.
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Old 06-29-2013   #64
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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Yes, as I said previously, this is a red herring.

Luck would be taken based on (a) the importance of the position and (b) his potential.

That said, Watt's a better player than Luck is right now.
Agree all the way around. Complete red herring. And Watt is the better player right now. But with age & potential factored in, I would not trade Luck for any player in the league right now.
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Old 06-29-2013   #65
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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No Brainer - gotta go with the young, franchise QB. Happy Indy ?
ummm... didn't WE do that once?
Hell I'm still having nightmares about how that turned out. Not saying that Luck will become Carr-like, but if I'm starting a brand new franchise I'm building my defense first.
Then I build the offense.
Why build defense first? So if I go young QB, and he screws up - and he will - the stud defense can minimize the damage.
And when I start to build my offense, I'm not so sure I don't go stud LT and start building a solid O-line before getting that young QB. I'd even lean toward trying to sign/draft as close to a stud RB as I can find so when I do get that young "franchise" QB, he has a solid team around him and won't have to carry franchise on his shoulders.

Do you think Luck would have been as successful at the helm of the 2002 Texans as he was for the 2012 Colts?? I sure don't.

And your premise was that we're starting a brand new franchise. Not that your stud QB is stepping into an established, playoff-level team. Just to be clear, everyone knows that 2-14 season was an aberration, not the norm for Indy.
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Old 06-29-2013   #66
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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Sorry to revive a dated thread that is nothing but message board fantasy stuff but it is the off season and I am bored.

How about asking the question this way - if all 4 AFC South teams were starting over and had their choice of any player, who goes first - Luck or Watt? Personally, I think the answer is pretty clear.

The reality is both teams have a young player who is or will be special.
Vince Young was taken with the #3 pick in the 2006 draft. D'Brickshaw Ferguson with the 4th.

Who was the better player?

In all honesty, if I were going to pick players based on winning right now, I'd pick Schaub. If I were wanting to win in the future, I'd pick Luck. Neither are the best player in the AFC South right now, but it's a QB driven league.

Jj Watt is the best player in the AFC South, coming off a historic season. If the question was asked in 2009, CJ2ypc would have been #1. Most other seasons, Peyton Manning.
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Old 06-29-2013   #67
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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Vince Young was taken with the #3 pick in the 2006 draft. D'Brickshaw Ferguson with the 4th.

Who was the better player?

In all honesty, if I were going to pick players based on winning right now, I'd pick Schaub. If I were wanting to win in the future, I'd pick Luck. Neither are the best player in the AFC South right now, but it's a QB driven league.

Jj Watt is the best player in the AFC South, coming off a historic season. If the question was asked in 2009, CJ2ypc would have been #1. Most other seasons, Peyton Manning.
Had a witty but sarcastic response all typed up but decided that since I am visitor to be more reasonable. Instead I will just say that I respectfully disagree.
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Old 06-29-2013   #68
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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ummm... didn't WE do that once?
Hell I'm still having nightmares about how that turned out. Not saying that Luck will become Carr-like, but if I'm starting a brand new franchise I'm building my defense first.
Then I build the offense.
Why build defense first? So if I go young QB, and he screws up - and he will - the stud defense can minimize the damage.
And when I start to build my offense, I'm not so sure I don't go stud LT and start building a solid O-line before getting that young QB. I'd even lean toward trying to sign/draft as close to a stud RB as I can find so when I do get that young "franchise" QB, he has a solid team around him and won't have to carry franchise on his shoulders.

Do you think Luck would have been as successful at the helm of the 2002 Texans as he was for the 2012 Colts?? I sure don't.

And your premise was that we're starting a brand new franchise. Not that your stud QB is stepping into an established, playoff-level team. Just to be clear, everyone knows that 2-14 season was an aberration, not the norm for Indy.
If given the chance to draft a franchise level QB, no NFL exec would pass up that player to build the team in the manner you suggest. None. It is the single most important position in all of sports. The fact that Carr was not what he expected to be does not change that premise.

The 2012 Colts were what they turned out to be largely because of Luck. The talent on the roster was sorely lacking at a multitude of positions.
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Old 06-29-2013   #69
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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If given the chance to draft a franchise level QB, no NFL exec would pass up that player to build the team in the manner you suggest. None. It is the single most important position in all of sports. The fact that Carr was not what he expected to be does not change that premise.

The 2012 Colts were what they turned out to be largely because of Luck. The talent on the roster was sorely lacking at a multitude of positions.
You asked what we - in this case me - would do. I've seen recovering franchises draft that "franchise QB guy" but not have a damn thing around him. they flounder until they get the rest of the pieces and usually that QB suffers.

Do you really think the Colts would have had the success they did without Mathis and Freeney shoring up that defense or without Reggie Wayne as a proven go-to guy? The Colts were no where near a "starting over" franchise.

Your original question was if all the AFCS franchises were starting over - and starting over, to me, implies they're all new franchises - and they had their pick of any player, who goes first Watt or Luck? You didn't say who would they draft? So that says that, in some alternate reality, Watt and Luck have played as they've played to date, and somehow they're available to each team via expansion draft. Given those parameters, I'm going Watt. I'm building my defense.
That's my decision. Build the foundation first (defense, O-line) then add the fancy accessories (QB, WR).
I have no issue with the path you chose, franchise QB first. It just ain't my way.
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Old 06-29-2013   #70
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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You asked what we - in this case me - would do. I've seen recovering franchises draft that "franchise QB guy" but not have a damn thing around him. they flounder until they get the rest of the pieces and usually that QB suffers.

Do you really think the Colts would have had the success they did without Mathis and Freeney shoring up that defense or without Reggie Wayne as a proven go-to guy? The Colts were no where near a "starting over" franchise.

Your original question was if all the AFCS franchises were starting over - and starting over, to me, implies they're all new franchises - and they had their pick of any player, who goes first Watt or Luck? You didn't say who would they draft? So that says that, in some alternate reality, Watt and Luck have played as they've played to date, and somehow they're available to each team via expansion draft. Given those parameters, I'm going Watt. I'm building my defense.
That's my decision. Build the foundation first (defense, O-line) then add the fancy accessories (QB, WR).
I have no issue with the path you chose, franchise QB first. It just ain't my way.
Fair enough. You have your path and I think differently. Silly debate anyway because the neither the Colts or Houston is offering either of their respective best players in a trade. And the alternate reality of both teams starting over ain't happening either. We are both happy with the great players on our teams - that is how it should be.
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Old 06-29-2013   #71
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

Let's backtrack to 2006, when the Texans had the first pick.
Some wanted VY, others wanted Bush; some of us wanted Mario Williams.

So yeah, people have different thinking about how to build a team.
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Old 06-29-2013   #72
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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Let's backtrack to 2006, when the Texans had the first pick.
Some wanted VY, others wanted Bush; some of us wanted Mario Williams.

So yeah, people have different thinking about how to build a team.
I have to laugh, because, as far as I'm concerned, everybody was wrong and none of those guys was worthy of the entire first round. We made up for it when we got Ryans early in the 2nd. It's not like I knew this in 2006, though.
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Old 06-29-2013   #73
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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Luck is a could-be/should be star who was drafted high, with much ballyhoo, but, stat-wise anyway, was kind of a bust.
Sorry bro, but that is one of the most ill-informed statements I have ever seen on this Board, which is really saying something.

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Old 06-29-2013   #74
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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I have to laugh, because, as far as I'm concerned, everybody was wrong and none of those guys was worthy of the entire first round. We made up for it when we got Ryans early in the 2nd. It's not like I knew this in 2006, though.
That's besides the point.
What is in play here is that some want to start their building block with a pass rusher, some want a QB, some want a RB, and perhaps others want a different position.
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Old 06-29-2013   #75
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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Sorry bro, but that is one of the most ill-informed statements I have ever seen on this Board, which is really saying something.

I agree with ObsiWan. Luck shows promise, but he was not the best rookie QB of his class. If someone were to argue who was, it would be a close race between RG3 & Russell Wilson. It's difficult to say if Luck lived up to expectations without considering RG3 & Wilson. Had they not come in the league at the same time, maybe we can look at the Colts & say, "Yeah, he's the best QB prospect to enter the league in years." But with what RG3 & Russel Wilson did... I can't say that. Then Kaepernick's first year as a starter...

Right now, there isn't much separation between Luck, Tannerhill, & Chad Henne... yes, Chad Henne.
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Old 06-29-2013   #76
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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I agree with ObsiWan. Luck shows promise, but he was not the best rookie QB of his class. If someone were to argue who was, it would be a close race between RG3 & Russell Wilson. It's difficult to say if Luck lived up to expectations without considering RG3 & Wilson. Had they not come in the league at the same time, maybe we can look at the Colts & say, "Yeah, he's the best QB prospect to enter the league in years." But with what RG3 & Russel Wilson did... I can't say that. Then Kaepernick's first year as a starter...

Right now, there isn't much separation between Luck, Tannerhill, & Chad Henne... yes, Chad Henne.
My response was solely to him calling Luck a bust.
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Old 06-29-2013   #77
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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I agree with ObsiWan. Luck shows promise, but he was not the best rookie QB of his class. If someone were to argue who was, it would be a close race between RG3 & Russell Wilson. It's difficult to say if Luck lived up to expectations without considering RG3 & Wilson. Had they not come in the league at the same time, maybe we can look at the Colts & say, "Yeah, he's the best QB prospect to enter the league in years." But with what RG3 & Russel Wilson did... I can't say that. Then Kaepernick's first year as a starter...

Right now, there isn't much separation between Luck, Tannerhill, & Chad Henne... yes, Chad Henne.
I am not going to attempt to change your mind because that would be a lost cause I am sure. I will say however the Henne comment has to be just designed to illicit a response because you can't really think that.

I think the odds are pretty good that Luck is going to be a pain the backsides of Houston fans for the the next dozen or so years.
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Old 06-29-2013   #78
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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Right now, there isn't much separation between Luck, Tannerhill, & Chad Henne... yes, Chad Henne.
Okay I'll take Luck, and you take Tannehill & Henne. Every day, twice on Sundays.
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Old 06-29-2013   #79
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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I think the odds are pretty good that Luck is going to be a pain the backsides of Houston fans for the the next dozen or so years.
Good. That'll leave y'all scratching your heads for the next 4 years. A few of your fans will know, but the rest of you won't believe it. You'll make excuses & change everything about the team before you realize.....

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Okay I'll take Luck, and you take Tannehill & Henne. Every day, twice on Sundays.

Three years from now we'll come back to this.
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Old 06-29-2013   #80
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Default Re: Top 20 Players in the AFC South, Texans with 9

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Good. That'll leave y'all scratching your heads for the next 4 years. A few of your fans will know, but the rest of you won't believe it. You'll make excuses & change everything about the team.
The primary head scratching that will be occurring in the AFC South will be Texans fans trying to figure out why the team committed such a big long term contract to Schaub before he ever played in a single playoff game. What did he deliver? Out after the wild card round, just like TJ. I keep waiting for something better, but all we hear are .... excuses. Like letting home field advantage slip away.

I am looking forward to 5-10 years of Luck dominating the division myself. It might not happen, but I hope it does.
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