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Old 06-24-2013   #61
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Watch a little of the first video on the Broncos Outside Zone:

http://www.milehighreport.com/2013/5...-zone-blocking

Outside zone if off-tackle play...
Outside zone is designed to cut upfield at the LOS, not bounced outside.


Then scroll to the 0:21 mark:

RB: Read the helmet of the second down lineman outside the Center
(the SDE, in the play being discussed).

If his helmet goes inside (not the case here), turn the ball upfield just to the outside of him.

If his helmet goes outside (which is the case here), so and a so forth.
...

Foster should have made the cut inside, just as I've been saying.
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Old 06-25-2013   #62
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Read page 10, especially the BIG bolded part.

http://www.gregorydoublewing.com/Zon...al_BASH_1_.pdf

ALWAYs BECOME PART OF THE TACKLE!!!
Stay on your block.
MsR, again, thanks for the link.
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Old 06-25-2013   #63
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Hey guys, just wanted to say thanks for all the back and forth discussion of this topic. I've been learning a lot about the "zone blocking system" from all the chat and links to videos, and it sure makes the off season go by quicker!
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Old 06-25-2013   #64
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Hey guys, just wanted to say thanks for all the back and forth discussion of this topic. I've been learning a lot about the "zone blocking system" from all the chat and links to videos, and it sure makes the off season go by quicker!
Definitely. I'd say 75% of it is just flying over my head, but the 25% that I'm catching is very interesting! Thanks to all the knowledgeable guys on this board for the really educational football talk, especially in the offseason!
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Old 06-25-2013   #65
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

errr
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Old 06-26-2013   #66
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Like TK, I'm only interested in breaking down a given play to see if I can tell why it works (or doesn't work.)

There are many websites and video clips out there that talk about the zone blocking scheme. I just pick out the ones from coaches, especially those from Gibbs (because even though other teams teach the ZBS- including college teams - they don't necessary teach the exact same thing; there are several reasons why.)

One such video is this one:
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=KNa3g...ure%3Dyoutu.be

That one video could take days to understand; and I'm not kidding, there are things Gibbs said that are impossible to understand , and I've read a lot about the ZBS ever since Kubiak came on board.

On this particular play, the LOS is around the 32-1/2 yd line.
Foster ended up gaining a yard or a little more. It was not even a negative play.
We've seen plenty of negative plays.

To be honest, I think Gibbs would have ripped Foster just like he said he would rip Terrell Davis in one of the plays in that video.

IMHO, Foster should have taken the seam (inside Newton, behind Jones and Myers.) Foster would probably gained about the same, but that was only because Smith had whiffed so badly on the back side cut block.
This is explained here:
http://prostylerunninggame.blogspot....-back.html?m=1
The first example coincides with the play in discussion, against a 4-3 Over Front.
Foster's first read is the 7-tech (the SDE).
Since the SDE kept outside leverage, Foster needs to go immediately to the next O-lineman to the inside (the RG Jones).
His options now are either between Newton and Jones (the seam) or to cut back inside Jones.

As I've said, the TE, with the SDE either head up or slightly shaded to the outside, should take a drop step and aim at the outside shoulder of the SDE.
He needs to wait until Newton arrives, and together, create some forward movement on the line before climbing to the SAM linebacker - unless the SDE slants hard to the inside (and therefore leaving the TE's area from the get-go, which the SDE did not.)

This is the concept of the ZBS; you have to block your area.
When there's a man in your area, you have to block him.
Watch the video and concentrate solely on the TEs to see what they do when he's covered (having a D-lineman head up on him or slightly shaded.)

Some coaches have a teaching point; there's a 50-80% chance that the TE would have to take on the block. He's not free to release to the second level straight away.

From the look of it, I believe OD didn't fulfill his job description.

What I think Newton did wrong, as I mentioned before, was in first step.
Unless there was something else going on that I'm not aware of, I believe his first step should have been with his right foot (toward the play side).
With a bucket step, he can now aim at the SDE's inside number/shoulder.
Newton and OD then work in tandem for a fraction of a second to get the movement needed at the LOS.
With the SAM flowing to the edge, it's OD's job to climb on him - which is the case here.

Newton lined up at the 31+ yd line; that was where he stayed throughout the play. The Texans did not get a push here, but they didn't allow penetration as one's eyes were led to believe.
Those are great resources and I have learned elements of zone blocking from my dad who had studied many oline coaches over the years including Alex Gibbs obviously, but I've also learned about how the Texans run their scheme from conversations with J. Benton and E. Winston.

I'll just say this. Always remember that the rules of engagement for offensive linemen are fluid and can change from play to play depending on the front they are seeing, the MIKE LB designation and how that team is coached to attack elements of the defense.

Not all teams are coached to do the same things against similar fronts. There are times that a team will execute a play differently than another offensive line based on what the line coach has designated even in a given week.

As for Gibbs, his idea of the outside zone is to run the track tighter to the LOS for the running back and to look for cutback lanes. What the Texans found is that teams began to really concentrate on the cutback lanes since they didn't respect the run around the corner from any of the Texans RBs. Once Foster got there and once Dennison had a little more say, the Texans started to widen out the track of the outside zone just a little bit and concentrate more on getting around the edge with the RB so that teams would have to flow harder.
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Old 06-26-2013   #67
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Never seen that link before, but it's crazy how information has made it's way around the football world. I first learned this stuff over 10 years ago..



This describes Newton on that play and he failed to take the correct step based on what I saw on the film.

In OL terms..... "you have to give ground to gain ground".
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Old 06-26-2013   #68
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Lance, if you read my posts (and not just in this thread), I have observed all the things you just said and had talked about them.

When the Texans ran more inside zone, when they started running more outside zone.

I read about how you and John Harris (?) view Duane Brown when he first got drafted and what you guys came to see during his first TC.
I've seen DB doing things that Harris was surprised to see.

I really don't have a need to qualify myself even though I've never played a down of football. This much, I've already communicated to Rey.

Football is not rocket science, but it does require a lot of knowledge about strategies and techniques to fully appreciate what's going on every Sunday.

Strategies changes require technique changes as it is an evolving sport.
What you learned ten years ago may have little relevancy to today's game.

I've also noted that different teams have different approaches to the ZBS.
There are several reasons I can come up with after studying a few dozens play books/manuals.

As long as we agree that teams can teach the scheme differently (in certain aspects), we can agree that we don't know for sure what a particular blocker should do on a particular play; you have said as much.

We don't know for certain what the TE should do on that particular play;
We don't know for certain what the RT should do on that play.

How can you and Rey be so quick to come to a conclusion?

Honestly, I really want to understand the thought process here.
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Old 06-26-2013   #69
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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One thing to keep in mind is that the TE is really there to briefly help Newton based on how the play unfolded. It's not a true double team. He has to take his steps and Newton needs to take his. He can't stay there too long or get too involved with that DE because he has to get up to the next level and pick up that LB.

JMO, but I think what he did there should have been good enough had Newton taken better steps and gotten to the TE's shoulder.

Honestly, Newton should have been able to hook that DE and the ball should have gone outside of him and maybe right behind the TE.



But he didn't do a good job there and the DE was able to close that hole off...at that point Newton just stays engaged with him and continues to block him. That would have been ok had Wade Smith done anything on the back side. The play would have still produced some positive yards...

I can point out a few things I didn't like that they did on the play, but the TE would be the least of my worries there.

If it were man blocking...Then yeah...The TE needs to stay on the DE a lot longer...And Newtons steps wouldn't have been as detrimental...

But in Newton's defense, ZBS is not easy to adjust to if you haven't done much of it. You're used to firing of the ball and pushing to get movement. Taking steps to outflank or out-leverage a defender takes some getting used to. It takes a while to get used to because as a lineman it doesn't really feel natural to step backwards and to the side to block a guy on a running play.

Normally big guys used to plowing guys take the longest to adjust. Unless they've had some ZBS experience...Whereas smaller quicker guys embrace that blocking style more quickly because they finally get to use their quickness to their advantage. They don't have to plow into guys and try to push them 3 yards off the LOS...They can use quickness and leverage to block guys. But like LZ of course you still need strength***

And I know he was there the year before, but he wasn't getting starters reps in practice and still...It just takes a while.

Would have been nice to see Newton this year to see how he progressed.



***This is one reason I'm excited about Brooks on the OL. He has a chance to be dominant in this scheme. With his strength if he can master the footwork and show good quickness and agility, you could see some gaping holes being opened up on that right side.
And I will be very intrigued to see Rey in Newton's position here.

Trust me, it is not about a ability. It's about the scheme.
A HC, or an offensive-line coach that requires the RT to perform this reach block all by himself is not in the right mind.

You want to design a blocking scheme that helps your guys to b more efficient.
Even if you're unorthodox enough, you can't be expecting for the weakest part of your line to achieve this feast.

Sorry, but it makes no sense.
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Old 06-26-2013   #70
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
And I will be very intrigued to see Rey in Newton's position here.

Trust me, it is not about a ability. It's about the scheme.
A HC, or an offensive-line coach that requires the RT to perform this reach block all by himself is not in the right mind.

You want to design a blocking scheme that helps your guys to b more efficient.
Even if you're unorthodox enough, you can't be expecting for the weakest part of your line to achieve this feast.

Sorry, but it makes no sense.
If you look at that film and see the RT making the block by himself then you need your eyes checked.

I don't know what else to say, besides you are wrong. The film and tutorials are fine, but if you think you can read about of stuff online and understand what you're seeing when you're watching film that's probably problem number 2.
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Old 06-26-2013   #71
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
If you look at that film and see the RT making the block by himself then you need your eyes checked.

I don't know what else to say, besides you are wrong. The film and tutorials are fine, but if you think you can read about of stuff online and understand what you're seeing when you're watching film that's probably problem number 2.
Rey, I never said that!
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Old 06-26-2013   #72
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

The funny thing here is that I like to discuss things with the guys who may have more knowledge about the game as a player, for example.

And I like that very much.
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Old 06-26-2013   #73
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Rey, let me be very blunt here.

Do you know what the Texans coaches want the guys on the line do on each instance?
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Old 06-26-2013   #74
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

I understand that theory is never the same as when you're on the ground.
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Old 06-26-2013   #75
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

The concept and the teaching need to be consistent, I am absolutely sure of that.
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Old 06-26-2013   #76
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Hey Rey, in this video at 0:47 They labeled it "Rip Reach" but that is what I'm thinking when you say "hook the DE"



Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Watch a little of the first video on the Broncos Outside Zone:

http://www.milehighreport.com/2013/5...-zone-blocking

Is that what you're talking about?
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Old 06-26-2013   #77
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Hey Rey, in this video at 0:47 They labeled it "Rip Reach" but that is what I'm thinking when you say "hook the DE"






Is that what you're talking about?
Similar concept, but I didn't like those guys steps either. They barely moved anywhere. They were just turning and running.

That first step has got to be deep and somewhat wide. But not awkwardly wide where you lose your balance.

But basically, it's similar to that where they are trying to basically outflank a defender that is outside of them.

But the video I thought showed how the guys were reading on the run when they were combo blocking.

There was even a mistake in there on a combo block where both the OL came off the down lineman to go up to the LB........but I kind of blame that on the defense...If I were coaching that drill I'm telling the guys with the dummies to get their asses in gear and give the guys a good look and stop dragging their damn feet...Get to where you're going so we can get a good picture...

I don't know what 76 is talking about...76, IMO, would be a real good coach for younger kids because he knows the basic concepts and stuff and he could give kids a real good foundation...But IMO when it comes to some of the higher level stuff he falls flat and I'd attribute that to a lack of applicable knowledge/experience...Not really a knock, because I think he brings some good info to the table, but honestly, to me at least, his lack of experience with the finer points shows to me....JMO...
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Old 06-26-2013   #78
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Rey,

The first thing when you said one of us doesn't know what we're talking about is the same, and with all honesty , it could be something that you truly believe.

I will tell you now for the last time, in as much a nice way as possible
; you are a good source, not an authority.
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Old 06-26-2013   #79
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Lance, if you read my posts (and not just in this thread), I have observed all the things you just said and had talked about them.

When the Texans ran more inside zone, when they started running more outside zone.

I read about how you and John Harris (?) view Duane Brown when he first got drafted and what you guys came to see during his first TC.
I've seen DB doing things that Harris was surprised to see.

I really don't have a need to qualify myself even though I've never played a down of football. This much, I've already communicated to Rey.

Football is not rocket science, but it does require a lot of knowledge about strategies and techniques to fully appreciate what's going on every Sunday.

Strategies changes require technique changes as it is an evolving sport.
What you learned ten years ago may have little relevancy to today's game.

I've also noted that different teams have different approaches to the ZBS.
There are several reasons I can come up with after studying a few dozens play books/manuals.

As long as we agree that teams can teach the scheme differently (in certain aspects), we can agree that we don't know for sure what a particular blocker should do on a particular play; you have said as much.

We don't know for certain what the TE should do on that particular play;
We don't know for certain what the RT should do on that play.

How can you and Rey be so quick to come to a conclusion?

Honestly, I really want to understand the thought process here.
Actually, I think you were the one who was pretty quick to come to the conclusion on the TE on that play. My point was to say that different teams coach it different ways. With that said, there are some basic truths in the zone. I think we are getting caught up in too many technical aspects. I know a thing or two about oline play and I had my ass handed to me with a big dose of humble pie after watching tape with my dad a couple of years ago. I would prefer to stay away from too many technique issues as there are very few on this board who are qualified to get into technique talk. I can talk basic technique, but I'm not a coach so I'm not going to wonder too far into that area. I trust Rey to do that though.

There are some basics that most teams follow though and they can literally change on the fly depending on who they have to block, the shade of the defender and how best to release linemen to the 2nd level. That's all I'm really commenting on here.
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Old 06-26-2013   #80
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
The concept and the teaching need to be consistent, I am absolutely sure of that.
The teaching is consistent, but the concepts can change from game to game depending several factors. This is zone blocking, not man and the point of the entire scheme is to use 6 guys to block 7 or 8 which requires getting to the 2nd level. Winston has told me about times where he and Brisiel literally made adjustments themselves during the 2nd quarter of a game.

Don't make the mistake of believing everything is black and white when there are levels of gray for line play thanks to fake a-gap blitzes, loaded fronts, slanting and corner blitzing. That is what makes line play so unique and why so few people understand how difficult it can be for players who don't have an ability to process information quickly.
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