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Old 06-24-2013   #41
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
I don't know if I understand what you're saying right here.

LZ is right. The TE has to help on the DE before going to the next level. That would be an extremely hard block to make if the TE doesn't help. He did exactly what he was supposed to do.
LZ didn't say the TE had any fault at all. That was my biggest disagreement with him. He accused me of letting Newton off the hook (which I didn't, I agree Newton played it poorly).



Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post

But as the SDE played to attack the edge, OD needs to wait until he feels pressure from the uncovered RT Newton before he releases.
This allows a smooth transition so that Newton can have time to get there to square up on the defender to perform the necessary reach block.
76 agrees the TE did not do his job on that play.
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Old 06-24-2013   #42
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Question.... I'm seeing the terms "Step-Down" & "Bucket-Step" in a few posts.

What does that mean?
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Old 06-24-2013   #43
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Question.... I'm seeing the terms "Step-Down" & "Bucket-Step" in a few posts.

What does that mean?
The bucket step is a diagonal step backward to open the hips.
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Old 06-24-2013   #44
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Question.... I'm seeing the terms "Step-Down" & "Bucket-Step" in a few posts.

What does that mean?
I think this covers it:

A discussion of the ZBS. There's a chart in there that shows the bucket step.
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Old 06-24-2013   #45
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I think this covers it:

A discussion of the ZBS. There's a chart in there that shows the bucket step.
MSR & all that. Thanks.
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Old 06-24-2013   #46
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
LZ didn't say the TE had any fault at all. That was my biggest disagreement with him. He accused me of letting Newton off the hook (which I didn't, I agree Newton played it poorly).





76 agrees the TE did not do his job on that play.
If Newton takes a better initial and second step there, He'd have better positioning on the DE thus allowing the TE to come off sooner.

Not going to get into the feeling pressure non-sense as I'm not even sure how 76 can say that the TE didn't feel Newton in position to take the DE over.

I agree with LZ. The TE did his job well. He didn't let the DE jump outside of him. Besides him turning his shoulders inside towards the play he looked good IMO. But I don't know if that's something that the coaches in the NFL want them to do since the athletes are bigger, stronger faster....

But really that would just be a small thing I'd point out as the TE was good on that play. He did his job almost perfectly. Newton has to take a better step and get in position to take that block over better.
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Old 06-24-2013   #47
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I think this covers it:

A discussion of the ZBS. There's a chart in there that shows the bucket step.
Never seen that link before, but it's crazy how information has made it's way around the football world. I first learned this stuff over 10 years ago..

Quote:
E: Bucket Step - This is a six inch step backward where the lineman opens his hips. It is used for an outside zone play and or when the blocker is uncovered.
This describes Newton on that play and he failed to take the correct step based on what I saw on the film.
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Old 06-24-2013   #48
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
If Newton takes a better initial and second step there, He'd have better positioning on the DE thus allowing the TE to come off sooner.

Not going to get into the feeling pressure non-sense as I'm not even sure how 76 can say that the TE didn't feel Newton in position to take the DE over.

I agree with LZ. The TE did his job well. He didn't let the DE jump outside of him. Besides him turning his shoulders inside towards the play he looked good IMO. But I don't know if that's something that the coaches in the NFL want them to do since the athletes are bigger, stronger faster....

But really that would just be a small thing I'd point out as the TE was good on that play. He did his job almost perfectly. Newton has to take a better step and get in position to take that block over better.
I agree with pretty much everything you and LZ have said throughout this thread. The only additional thing (being nitpicky here) that I would've hoped to see from the TE is a bit more of an impact on his initial chip. The DE didn't appear to sway from his path. Maybe it was due to Newton not engaging quick enough?

Jones didn't look great either. But y'all are right, if either Newton or Smith done their job it would've been a good play
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Old 06-24-2013   #49
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I would've hoped to see from the TE is a bit more of an impact on his initial chip. The DE didn't appear to sway from his path. Maybe it was due to Newton not engaging quick enough?
One thing to keep in mind is that the TE is really there to briefly help Newton based on how the play unfolded. It's not a true double team. He has to take his steps and Newton needs to take his. He can't stay there too long or get too involved with that DE because he has to get up to the next level and pick up that LB.

JMO, but I think what he did there should have been good enough had Newton taken better steps and gotten to the TE's shoulder.

Honestly, Newton should have been able to hook that DE and the ball should have gone outside of him and maybe right behind the TE.



But he didn't do a good job there and the DE was able to close that hole off...at that point Newton just stays engaged with him and continues to block him. That would have been ok had Wade Smith done anything on the back side. The play would have still produced some positive yards...

I can point out a few things I didn't like that they did on the play, but the TE would be the least of my worries there.

If it were man blocking...Then yeah...The TE needs to stay on the DE a lot longer...And Newtons steps wouldn't have been as detrimental...

But in Newton's defense, ZBS is not easy to adjust to if you haven't done much of it. You're used to firing of the ball and pushing to get movement. Taking steps to outflank or out-leverage a defender takes some getting used to. It takes a while to get used to because as a lineman it doesn't really feel natural to step backwards and to the side to block a guy on a running play.

Normally big guys used to plowing guys take the longest to adjust. Unless they've had some ZBS experience...Whereas smaller quicker guys embrace that blocking style more quickly because they finally get to use their quickness to their advantage. They don't have to plow into guys and try to push them 3 yards off the LOS...They can use quickness and leverage to block guys. But like LZ of course you still need strength***

And I know he was there the year before, but he wasn't getting starters reps in practice and still...It just takes a while.

Would have been nice to see Newton this year to see how he progressed.



***This is one reason I'm excited about Brooks on the OL. He has a chance to be dominant in this scheme. With his strength if he can master the footwork and show good quickness and agility, you could see some gaping holes being opened up on that right side.
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Old 06-24-2013   #50
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
If Newton takes a better initial and second step there, He'd have better positioning on the DE thus allowing the TE to come off sooner.

But really that would just be a small thing I'd point out as the TE was good on that play. He did his job almost perfectly. Newton has to take a better step and get in position to take that block over better.
& I'm fine with that. I don't claim to be an expert, but this thread would have been dull & short had no one disagreed with LZ & all the discussion since would not have happened. But I feel others (as well as myself) has benefited from the discussion.

Now, if you go back to the video, LZ isn't saying that Newton did a poor job because of his footwork or inability to get on that block. He's saying that Newton allowed too much penetration. But as 76 says, Newton starts at the 31 yard line & he finishes on the 31 yard line.

Through the first minute of the video he continues to say that Newton failed to stop the DE from widening the play... but everything I've read in this thread says his job was to drive the DE to the sideline. Both statements can not be true.

Listening to LZ I get the impression that Newton was supposed to cross the face of the DE & wall him off from getting to the sideline. IMO, there is no way he can do that unless the TE blocks longer & harder than what he did.

Newton's footwork may have been poor, he may not have gotten to the block on time. But if 76 is right & he did not give up ground beyond the 31 yard line & he drove the DE to the sideline parallel to the LOS, Newton recovered pretty well.
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Old 06-24-2013   #51
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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JMO, but I think what he did there should have been good enough had Newton taken better steps and gotten to the TE's shoulder.

Honestly, Newton should have been able to hook that DE and the ball should have gone outside of him and maybe right behind the TE.



But he didn't do a good job there and the DE was able to close that hole off...at that point Newton just stays engaged with him and continues to block him. That would have been ok had Wade Smith done anything on the back side. The play would have still produced some positive yards...
That makes sense, if by "hook" him you mean that Newton should have been able to get to the DE's outside shoulder & slowed his progress to the sideline, & not completely stop it (which is what I'm understanding LZ is saying).
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Old 06-24-2013   #52
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Through the first minute of the video he continues to say that Newton failed to stop the DE from widening the play... but everything I've read in this thread says his job was to drive the DE to the sideline. Both statements can not be true.

Listening to LZ I get the impression that Newton was supposed to cross the face of the DE & wall him off from getting to the sideline. IMO, there is no way he can do that unless the TE blocks longer & harder than what he did.

Newton's footwork may have been poor, he may not have gotten to the block on time. But if 76 is right & he did not give up ground beyond the 31 yard line & he drove the DE to the sideline parallel to the LOS, Newton recovered pretty well.
Oh... yeah... no.

I should probably go back and look at the play before saying this but I'm at work and need to hurry.

Newton was supposed to drive him out to the sideline to allow Arian to cut inside of Newton. But instead, Newton allowed the DE to stay relatively inside and only slowly push outside, which forced Arian OUTSIDE instead of inside... in other words, widening out the play.

EDIT:
OTOH, Rey is saying that he should have hooked him and driven him inside to allow Arian outside.

Basically, it's got to be one or the other.
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Old 06-24-2013   #53
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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That makes sense, if by "hook" him you mean that Newton should have been able to get to the DE's outside shoulder & slowed his progress to the sideline, & not completely stop it (which is what I'm understanding LZ is saying).
Pretty much.
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Old 06-24-2013   #54
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Oh... yeah... no.

I should probably go back and look at the play before saying this but I'm at work and need to hurry.

Newton was supposed to drive him out to the sideline to allow Arian to cut inside of Newton. But instead, Newton allowed the DE to stay relatively inside and only slowly push outside, which forced Arian OUTSIDE instead of inside... in other words, widening out the play.

EDIT:
OTOH, Rey is saying that he should have hooked him and driven him inside to allow Arian outside.

Basically, it's got to be one or the other.

It's both actually...

Had Newton taken the correct steps he should have gotten to the DE's outside shoulder and hooked him. But because he didn't do that and he was kind of square on the DE he should have continued to wash him to the sideline.

That's the thing with ZBS....You can start out with something in mind and end up doing something completely different based on what the defense does or in this case (IMO) not taking the correct step...
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Old 06-24-2013   #55
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Listening to LZ I get the impression that Newton was supposed to cross the face of the DE & wall him off from getting to the sideline. IMO, there is no way he can do that unless the TE blocks longer & harder than what he did.
I can't really say anything other than you are incorrect. I've performed that very same block hunderds of times. I've been the guy that's covered and had to perform what my coach called a half bench for the guard to take over and for me to go up to the LB and I've been in the position of having to take over a guy allowing the TE or guard to go up to the next level.

That was more than enough help IMO. Notice I said half bench...Half bench is when you only put one hand on the guy which should be enough help. The TE actually gets two hands on the guy.

I'm telling you, Newton should have EASILY hooked that guy there....But since he didn't he's got to recognize quickly that he isn't going to hook him and that's when he is supposed to use the defenders momentum against him and say "ok, you wanna go outside...Let me help you"...That's when he should have began pushing him TO the sideline which should open up a hole and allow the RB to cut the ball up...

That's why you need a RB that embodies the patience to let the play develop and make the patented one cut and go. The RB doesn't really 'know' where the hole will end up being. It could be anywhere....Even on the backside of the play...
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Old 06-24-2013   #56
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I'm telling you, Newton should have EASILY hooked that guy there....But since he didn't he's got to recognize quickly that he isn't going to hook him and that's when he is supposed to use the defenders momentum against him and say "ok, you wanna go outside...Let me help you"...That's when he should have began pushing him TO the sideline which should open up a hole and allow the RB to cut the ball up...
I think I understand now. Like I said, if I understand what you mean by hook, I got it.

I'll be looking for good examples of this in videos or pictures, but if anyone else find any before I do, I'd appreciate it.
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Old 06-24-2013   #57
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Once again, watch the long clip with Alex Gibbs decephering the plays.

Zoom in on the TE when he's covered.
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Old 06-24-2013   #58
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Read page 10, especially the BIG bolded part.

http://www.gregorydoublewing.com/Zon...al_BASH_1_.pdf

ALWAYs BECOME PART OF THE TACKLE!!!
Stay on your block.
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Old 06-24-2013   #59
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

B. Covered Blocker.

Run through the play side shoulder...

...

Did any one see the TE run through the shoulder of the SDE?
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Old 06-24-2013   #60
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Watch this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azlLStj7u3E

Look at what the TE do on the first play, which is the exact scenario for the TE & the RT.

Scroll to the 1:50 mark to see the TE on the play side to the left.

Watch the play at the 2:10 mark.
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