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Old 06-20-2013   #21
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Now, ZBS struggles against penetrating fronts and as an OL you don't want to allow too much push up field...
Not to go all Rome on you, but rack him! MSR
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Old 06-20-2013   #22
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Great post.

Now what did you not like about Newton's steps that were "terrible & aweful"
His first step should be wide and deep. His second step should not cross over his first step. He should try to stay square to the LOS.

It looks like he barely gained any ground with that first step. His footwork looked like someone just starting out right there with very little coaching.

I wish I had some film of when Alex Gibbs was here to see if the technique was different. I'm not really a fan of what Meyers did right there either nor the RG....

But the play could have still worked if Wade Smith had done anything at all.


Wade has got to do more besides come off the ball and flop on the ground like a fish there.


I don't want to compare my coaching to NFL coaching, but I had a damn good coach and we ran the exact same scheme. We weren't allowed to cut the first level of defense unless we had them hooked...If we had them completely hooked then we could cut them to stop back side pursuit.

But if we didn't absolutely have them hooked our coach preferred that we stay on our feet and stay engaged because we could just "push them past the hole" or keep pushing them to the sideline and the RB could cut off of us.

For instance...If Wade just engaged the DT, even if he couldn't hook him, he could have washed him straight down the line into all that other traffic...That would have caused a pile up right there and made the read easier for Arian.


But instead Wade goes for the ill advised cut block there and not only does it allow his man to take away the cut back, but now he is on the ground in the way.


But I have no idea what or how the Texans are taught. I'm just giving my input based on what I know from when I played.
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Old 06-20-2013   #23
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Great stuff, Rey. Dead on. And as I'm sure you saw, his aim point and decision to launch so early were way, way off for such a savvy veteran.
Yeah...I wish I knew what he was thinking there. Even if he thinks he's going to have some help from Meyers I wouldn't think you want him to try to make that cut block how he attempted to make it.

I know the blocking isn't going to be perfect on every play, but it's the complete screw ups that usually wreck plays.
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Old 06-20-2013   #24
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Newton's first step wasn't good, but IMO, it was not why the entire play was shut down.

On an outside zone run, I would think that the RB is taught to chose his hole.
If he can't see the inside number of the SDE, he should go inside the RT.

Foster wanted too, but the hole just wasn't there due to the weak play by the three interior guys.

Newton, IMO, was supposed to maintain the gap horizontally first, to let Foster decide whether to go to the outside or to the inside.

He was too far away from the SDE to square up on him quickly enough; Newton was already at a disadvantage from the get go.

It was a failure at all 4 spots, but the most important one should always be where the double team occurs (Jones and Myers).

They simply have to win at the POA, but they didn't.
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Old 06-20-2013   #25
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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LZ, please consider adding TT to your routine as much as Twitter or the like. We need and appreciate the insight around here. Thanks for your time!
I plan on it.
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Old 06-20-2013   #26
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Newton's first step wasn't good, but IMO, it was not why the entire play was shut down.

On an outside zone run, I would think that the RB is taught to chose his hole.
If he can't see the inside number of the SDE, he should go inside the RT.

Foster wanted too, but the hole just wasn't there due to the weak play by the three interior guys.

Newton, IMO, was supposed to maintain the gap horizontally first, to let Foster decide whether to go to the outside or to the inside.

He was too far away from the SDE to square up on him quickly enough; Newton was already at a disadvantage from the get go.

It was a failure at all 4 spots, but the most important one should always be where the double team occurs (Jones and Myers).

They simply have to win at the POA, but they didn't.
I don't think I agree with that, but I'm not sure because I can't really understand your wording...
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Old 06-20-2013   #27
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I'm not letting Newton off the hook. I am not saying our OL do not need to be strong & be able to use their strength. I am not saying Derek Newton shouldn't have to play as well as Eric Winston, Duane Brown, or any other linemen.

The DE in question isn't playing the 5 tech, he's outside the TE. Derek Newton isn't just trying to cross the face of the guy in front of him like Wade should have in that play (& I did add your comments about Wade), He's trying to cross the face of the guy lined up to the guy next to him. Can't be done, not by Winston, not by Brown, not by Myers, not without help from the TE (who is lined up on the DE).

As far as the Jones/Myers double block, again, no one is lined up over Myers, the defender in question is lined up over Jones. It's possible that Jones was supposed to stand up Alualu & pass him off to Myers (the same way I am saying Graham was supposed to do to the DE), & it's possible that Myers was supposed to take on that block.

However, it looked like Myers intentionally engaged Alualu to get him moving to his right, helping Jones' block, then he would get up & block the MIKE...... I'm willing to say your scenario is more right, but in that case two players failed, in my scenario only one guy.

So that brings up the question, why do I expect Newton to pick up the block & Graham to get to the second level, but I expect BenJones to maintain his block while Myers works up to the second level. A big reason is because of how they got off the line. Newton made an "obvious" attempt to get under the DE & Graham made an "obvious" attempt to get to the second level. Jones made an obvious attempt to square up on the defender, Myers made an obvious attempt to get to the second level.

I'm Monday morning QBing, I'm not denying that. It's possible I'm looking at it wrong. But I'm not seeing Newton (won't lie, I'm a big fan) as not "good enough" I'm saying the scheme failed him.
I tend to agree more with TK on this one.

From what (I think) I understand, on the outside zone run, when the TE is covered (by the SDE in this case), his job is to step down on the SDE to prevent him from getting to the edge.
If the SDE slants to the inside (which he didn't), OD ran release to the SAM sooner to climb to the SAM, since he (the SDE) would be leaving OD's area to enter Newton's.

But as the SDE played to attack the edge, OD needs to wait until he feels pressure from the uncovered RT Newton before he releases.
This allows a smooth transition so that Newton can have time to get there to square up on the defender to perform the necessary reach block.

Similarly, the RG Jones, who was covered by the SDT, needs to do the same.
Depending on which way the SDT attacks, either Jones or Myers would climb to the MIKE.

But Jones lost his initial battle quickly and got stuck, leaving Myers with no choice (as the SDT) remains in his area.

If you watch the play carefully, Foster wanted to go to the inside initially, but there was no seam.

The cut back lane, in the meantime, was lost due to Smith missing the cut block.

Play shut down.
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Old 06-21-2013   #28
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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The cut back lane, in the meantime, was lost due to Smith missing the cut block.

Play shut down.
At least we all agree that Wade screwed the pooch.

What I don't understand is why we are so focused on the right side of the line. IMO, over the course of the year, Ben Jones was much more consistent in doing his job than Wade was in doing his job.

I can understand there will be some growing pains with Ben Jones & Derek Newton. They're not going to come in & play as well as Briesel & Winston. But we should expect better from Wade.
"But Wade went to the ProBowl"
I honestly don't remember seeing Wade's name in the voting. It was Antoine Caldwell's & we joked about him not even playing.

Brandon Brooks is bigger & stronger than Ben Jones. He showed that he can play well enough to start (I think anyway). But I also think Ben Jones made a strong case to continue as a starter.

This is the second year in a row that I believe Wade has put out a less than acceptable performance. If I were king, Brooks would be my starting LG, Jones would be my starting RG.

Just like we are seeing a drop off in play from Briesel to Jones/Brooks, we're going to see that same drop off if Jones doesn't start & comes in to play Center when needed. I think he's getting excellent training being on the line next to Myers where he can see what Myers is seeing as he makes the calls.

We should continue to look for another Guard/Center ala Cody White if he becomes a better Guard than Ben Jones, then he starts & Jones goes to the bench.

But right now, our OL need a RT, RG, LG

I think Newton, Jones, & Brooks will play much better in their second season. I don't think Wade Smith is going to play better in his 10th. We're paying him a lot of money that can be used elsewhere & he's only turned in one acceptable season to date.
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Old 06-21-2013   #29
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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At least we all agree that Wade screwed the pooch.

What I don't understand is why we are so focused on the right side of the line. IMO, over the course of the year, Ben Jones was much more consistent in doing his job than Wade was in doing his job.

I can understand there will be some growing pains with Ben Jones & Derek Newton. They're not going to come in & play as well as Briesel & Winston. But we should expect better from Wade.
"But Wade went to the ProBowl"
I honestly don't remember seeing Wade's name in the voting. It was Antoine Caldwell's & we joked about him not even playing.

Brandon Brooks is bigger & stronger than Ben Jones. He showed that he can play well enough to start (I think anyway). But I also think Ben Jones made a strong case to continue as a starter.

This is the second year in a row that I believe Wade has put out a less than acceptable performance. If I were king, Brooks would be my starting LG, Jones would be my starting RG.

Just like we are seeing a drop off in play from Briesel to Jones/Brooks, we're going to see that same drop off if Jones doesn't start & comes in to play Center when needed. I think he's getting excellent training being on the line next to Myers where he can see what Myers is seeing as he makes the calls.

We should continue to look for another Guard/Center ala Cody White if he becomes a better Guard than Ben Jones, then he starts & Jones goes to the bench.

But right now, our OL need a RT, RG, LG

I think Newton, Jones, & Brooks will play much better in their second season. I don't think Wade Smith is going to play better in his 10th. We're paying him a lot of money that can be used elsewhere & he's only turned in one acceptable season to date.
What I think I saw was that in 2011, the line played quite well together; the weakness of one guy on a certain play, was quickly covered up by the another.
On top of that, the Texans didn't run much outside zone in the previous years, and the opponents didn't anticipate that Foster can be that quick to the outside. Success builds confidence, and so, the running game flourished.

I differed with TK here, in that I thought Wade Smith had a pretty good year in 2011 - his best in a Texans uni, which brought him the PRO-Bowl accolade a year later. So did Myers, when he was allowed to do what he does best, which is to get to the second and third level. When we see Myers get to the third level, it means that the whole line is working in sync (at least, theoretically), and the chance for the RB to bust a long run is good.

The Texans ran into WAY to many negative plays last year to either side, it put a serious question mark as to the effectiveness of the zone scheme. That was not supposed to happen.

The left side was supposed to be the strength, it wasn't.
It was as inconsistent as the right side.
Myers did not have a good year either, in the middle.

The back side cut block, whether the run is to the left or to the right, whether the strong side is to the left or the right, is an important element in the ZBS;
It was weak; OD was weak as a blocker; Casey was also weak.

It was really easy to see why Foster didn't have a better year

In the run game, the right side had its problem, but it was to be expected.
It was the left side that underperformed, because it was supposed to be the strength, only it wasn't.
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Old 06-23-2013   #30
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

I think I will trust the evals of LZ, (NFL OL Coaches son) and Rey (HS Coach) over 76/TK's. (No offense guys)
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Old 06-23-2013   #31
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I think I will trust the evals of LZ, (NFL OL Coaches son) and Rey (HS Coach) over 76/TK's. (No offense guys)
76 nailed it on KJ. When all others would've ran him out of town on a rail, 76 stood behind him and took much criticism for it.

Now 1 good year does not a shutdown corner make, but it's a start and one hell of an improvement. I'll give him some leeway.
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Old 06-23-2013   #32
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I think I will trust the evals of LZ, (NFL OL Coaches son) and Rey (HS Coach) over 76/TK's. (No offense guys)
I'm not trying to compete with anybody, just trying to understand what I'm seeing. I enjoy the back & forth with people that know.

That's how we learn.

But 76 does bring up some good points. Everybody wants to point to the right side of the line. When we lost Briesel & Winston, we all knew the right side was going to be an issue. Harping on it is kinda Mr obvious to me.

The left side was supposed to be a strength, we sent 74 & 76 to the pro bowl. While they may have performed better than the right side, they were no where near as good as they should have been.
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Old 06-24-2013   #33
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Like TK, I'm only interested in breaking down a given play to see if I can tell why it works (or doesn't work.)

There are many websites and video clips out there that talk about the zone blocking scheme. I just pick out the ones from coaches, especially those from Gibbs (because even though other teams teach the ZBS- including college teams - they don't necessary teach the exact same thing; there are several reasons why.)

One such video is this one:
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=KNa3g...ure%3Dyoutu.be

That one video could take days to understand; and I'm not kidding, there are things Gibbs said that are impossible to understand , and I've read a lot about the ZBS ever since Kubiak came on board.

On this particular play, the LOS is around the 32-1/2 yd line.
Foster ended up gaining a yard or a little more. It was not even a negative play.
We've seen plenty of negative plays.

To be honest, I think Gibbs would have ripped Foster just like he said he would rip Terrell Davis in one of the plays in that video.

IMHO, Foster should have taken the seam (inside Newton, behind Jones and Myers.) Foster would probably gained about the same, but that was only because Smith had whiffed so badly on the back side cut block.
This is explained here:
http://prostylerunninggame.blogspot....-back.html?m=1
The first example coincides with the play in discussion, against a 4-3 Over Front.
Foster's first read is the 7-tech (the SDE).
Since the SDE kept outside leverage, Foster needs to go immediately to the next O-lineman to the inside (the RG Jones).
His options now are either between Newton and Jones (the seam) or to cut back inside Jones.

As I've said, the TE, with the SDE either head up or slightly shaded to the outside, should take a drop step and aim at the outside shoulder of the SDE.
He needs to wait until Newton arrives, and together, create some forward movement on the line before climbing to the SAM linebacker - unless the SDE slants hard to the inside (and therefore leaving the TE's area from the get-go, which the SDE did not.)

This is the concept of the ZBS; you have to block your area.
When there's a man in your area, you have to block him.
Watch the video and concentrate solely on the TEs to see what they do when he's covered (having a D-lineman head up on him or slightly shaded.)

Some coaches have a teaching point; there's a 50-80% chance that the TE would have to take on the block. He's not free to release to the second level straight away.

From the look of it, I believe OD didn't fulfill his job description.

What I think Newton did wrong, as I mentioned before, was in first step.
Unless there was something else going on that I'm not aware of, I believe his first step should have been with his right foot (toward the play side).
With a bucket step, he can now aim at the SDE's inside number/shoulder.
Newton and OD then work in tandem for a fraction of a second to get the movement needed at the LOS.
With the SAM flowing to the edge, it's OD's job to climb on him - which is the case here.

Newton lined up at the 31+ yd line; that was where he stayed throughout the play. The Texans did not get a push here, but they didn't allow penetration as one's eyes were led to believe.
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Old 06-24-2013   #34
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

On Jones' part, I believe his call is to take a slide step and aim at the SDT's outside shoulder. Jones reached his aiming point for a fraction of a second, but couldn't maintain his position to perform the necessary stretch block (partially because Myers were very quick and strong to the inside shoulder of the SDT before climbing the MIKE.

It looks like the SDT got his hands on Jones first, and jolted him backward a step or two while Myers arrived to the block.

This probably prompted Foster to try to see if he can get to the edge, as the cut back lane was taken away with Smith's missing the block.
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Old 06-24-2013   #35
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Newton lined up at the 31+ yd line; that was where he stayed throughout the play. The Texans did not get a push here, but they didn't allow penetration as one's eyes were led to believe.
MSR, great post, lots of good stuff.. really enjoyed the links. Thanks.
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Old 06-24-2013   #36
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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76 nailed it on KJ. When all others would've ran him out of town on a rail, 76 stood behind him and took much criticism for it.
I'm not going to go down the whole KJ thing again, but I still don't agree with his analysis from back then that KJ was being failed by the defenders around him.

My argument was never that he wouldn't get better. In fact I loved the KJ pick when it was made. I thought he was a good player.

But whether it was coaching, being thrown out too soon, or whatever...Kareem made a lot of mistakes as a rookie and was not a good player being made to look bad because his safeties weren't good.

Both of those safeties were fine the year before and one of them just started the whole year for a superbowl team.

Kareem has improved. He was not always this good of a player.
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Old 06-24-2013   #37
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I'm not trying to compete with anybody, just trying to understand what I'm seeing. I enjoy the back & forth with people that know.

That's how we learn.

But 76 does bring up some good points. Everybody wants to point to the right side of the line. When we lost Briesel & Winston, we all knew the right side was going to be an issue. Harping on it is kinda Mr obvious to me.

The left side was supposed to be a strength, we sent 74 & 76 to the pro bowl. While they may have performed better than the right side, they were no where near as good as they should have been.

I didn't read every word of 76's posts, but I didn't see where we differed in our opinions of the right side too much.

IMO, the play in question mainly didn't work because Wade Smith did nothing at all.

I think the right side could have been better, but Wade Smith was the worst player on the OL on that particular play.
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Old 06-24-2013   #38
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I'm not going to go down the whole KJ thing again, but I still don't agree with his analysis from back then that KJ was being failed by the defenders around him.

But whether it was coaching, being thrown out too soon, or whatever...Kareem made a lot of mistakes as a rookie and was not a good player being made to look bad because his safeties weren't good.

Both of those safeties were fine the year before and one of them just started the whole year for a superbowl team.

Kareem has improved. He was not always this good of a player.
I believe 76 & I shared the same opinion on KJ & it wasn't that he thought KJ looked so bad because of the defenders around him. There were times when that was the case & 76 would provide his take on those plays. Often with screen shots & explaining the technique Kj was playing along with the coverage he "assumed" the defense was in.

Kj made a lot of mistakes, the argument there, was that as a rookie we should expect him to make a lot of mistakes. We should understand the position he was put in, consistently in man coverage on the edges which is unusual for a rookie. We talk about how Kyle Wilson & Devin McCourty were used as contrast.

Just like Wade Smith isn't performing as well as he had in the past, those two safeties failed big time. We asked Pollard to something he was not good at & Eugene Wilson lost a step.

Maybe my expectations for Kj were too low. I expected some trouble... not as much as what we saw, but I could still tell he was a solid player who generally got better from week to week. I did not expect him to be a bad ass out the gate like Cushing or Demeco, or Jj Watt. If that was what I was expecting I'd probably have been down on Kj as much as everyone else.

But even with the success McCourty was having in New England, I felt that was the exception to the rule. Most NFL CBs do not have that kind of success from day one.
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Old 06-24-2013   #39
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I didn't read every word of 76's posts, but I didn't see where we differed in our opinions of the right side too much.

.

The only place I disagreed with LZ, was saying there was no way for Newton to make that block without help from the TE (I thought it was Graham). 76 agreed that would have been a totally different play had the TE did his job before slipping to the second level.
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Old 06-24-2013   #40
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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The only place I disagreed with LZ, was saying there was no way for Newton to make that block without help from the TE (I thought it was Graham). 76 agreed that would have been a totally different play had the TE did his job before slipping to the second level.
I don't know if I understand what you're saying right here.

LZ is right. The TE has to help on the DE before going to the next level. That would be an extremely hard block to make if the TE doesn't help. He did exactly what he was supposed to do.

If you're saying that the TE shouldn't help there then you are entering a new territory and saying Kubiak isn't having guys block right schematically as that is exactly what the TE is supposed to be doing. Besides being familiar with the system, you can look at the film and see that.


But then in your second sentence it seems like you're saying he should have helped longer. Which I also disagree with. The TE right there did a fine job.
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