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Old 05-05-2013   #81
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Default Re: NT Concern...

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Originally Posted by Number19 View Post
What the fuss is about is advancing in the playoffs and getting to the Super Bowl.

Offensively, you attack sub-defenses by going into a hurry-up offense and not giving your opponent time to substitute, creating mis-matches. We have to be able to defeat elite teams by staying in our base defense much more and not depending on the sub-defenses.
Actually, offenses run a hurry up to catch you in your BASE defense to create the mismatches, not your sub. This is a passing league so what do you think they want to pass the ball against more, your base or your sub package? Obviously the answer is your base defense.

Let's also be real. There is one elite team in the AFC we have not proven ourselves against and that is the Patriots. You do not beat them in your base defense because they run a spread and distribute to speed backs that are easily going to beat your linebackers. How did the Ravens beat them? It sure wasn't with their NT's on the field. They got about half of the defensive snaps the entire game.

In other words, the NT is barely a contributor against such teams unless you have a top tier guy and they don't grow on trees.
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Old 05-05-2013   #82
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Default Re: NT Concern...

Montori Hughes wasn't even impressive on film. I don't get it.
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Old 05-05-2013   #83
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Default Re: NT Concern...

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Originally Posted by deucetx View Post
Actually, offenses run a hurry up to catch you in your BASE defense to create the mismatches, not your sub. This is a passing league so what do you think they want to pass the ball against more, your base or your sub package? Obviously the answer is your base defense.

Let's also be real. There is one elite team in the AFC we have not proven ourselves against and that is the Patriots. You do not beat them in your base defense because they run a spread and distribute to speed backs that are easily going to beat your linebackers. How did the Ravens beat them? It sure wasn't with their NT's on the field. They got about half of the defensive snaps the entire game.

In other words, the NT is barely a contributor against such teams.
I agree with your overall point.

Against the patriots you probably won't start off in your base defense. Maybe some variation of a 4-2-5 with your olb's down, no NT, 2 MLB's, and the third safety in the game.

Safety was a huge priority for this team and I think even that 4th safety spot is going to be is going to be important. I'm hoping pleasant has gotten more comfortable and can play special teams.

But yeah...the NT and the 2nd ILB are both part time players who may or may not even technically start a game.
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Old 05-06-2013   #84
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Default Re: NT Concern...

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Originally Posted by deucetx View Post
Actually, offenses run a hurry up to catch you in your BASE defense to create the mismatches, not your sub. This is a passing league so what do you think they want to pass the ball against more, your base or your sub package? Obviously the answer is your base defense.

Let's also be real. There is one elite team in the AFC we have not proven ourselves against and that is the Patriots. You do not beat them in your base defense because they run a spread and distribute to speed backs that are easily going to beat your linebackers. How did the Ravens beat them? It sure wasn't with their NT's on the field. They got about half of the defensive snaps the entire game.

In other words, the NT is barely a contributor against such teams unless you have a top tier guy and they don't grow on trees.
How often was Ngata on the field? I'd say he's a "top tier" NT. Even if he's lost a step over the years I can't imagine him being off the field for too long. I just think, and I'm sure others on this MB do too, that if the Texans had a NT that size (6'4" 330 lbs) that has some quickness and can plug the middle, that it would help the ILB's and DE's regardless of what the Pats or any other team do. I do agree with you that "they don't grow on trees," but I hope if one does come along, the Texans don't pass on him just because "he will only play 2 downs and won't be on the field that much."
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Old 05-06-2013   #85
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Default Re: NT Concern...

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How often was Ngata on the field? I'd say he's a "top tier" NT.
Ngata is on the field most plays but he is not a pure NT. He lines up much of the time as a DE.
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Old 05-06-2013   #86
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Default Re: NT Concern...

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How often was Ngata on the field? I'd say he's a "top tier" NT. Even if he's lost a step over the years I can't imagine him being off the field for too long. I just think, and I'm sure others on this MB do too, that if the Texans had a NT that size (6'4" 330 lbs) that has some quickness and can plug the middle, that it would help the ILB's and DE's regardless of what the Pats or any other team do. I do agree with you that "they don't grow on trees," but I hope if one does come along, the Texans don't pass on him just because "he will only play 2 downs and won't be on the field that much."
He's actually not listed as their NT. Kemoeatu (sheesh that guy is freaking huge) and Terrence Cody are. I'm guessing Ngata gets moved around in similar fashion Watt slides in and out to take advantage of his athletic ability with that bulk. Wish we had one of those next to Watt though.

And I agree. I would hope that if a NT like you described was available that even Wade would see the need to change his defense a bit and snag that player up to utilize them more. Got to be flexible when a gem like that comes along. I know Wade had Ted Washington as his nose a few years so I assume he is willing to adapt if the right guy comes along.
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Old 05-06-2013   #87
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Default Re: NT Concern...

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Ngata is on the field most plays but he is not a pure NT. He lines up much of the time as a DE.
Yeah, I knew they used him as a DE, but he was listed as a DT on their roster. It must be nice having a guy with that size and quickness that you can move around on the line like that. But, like what was stated before, "they don't grow on trees."
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Old 05-06-2013   #88
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Default Re: NT Concern...

My understanding of Wade's defense comes from an excellent analysis I read a while back. ( As a side note, we call his base defense a 34, but it closely resembles a 52 ) With the right talent, Wade's base defense would stay on the field the majority of the game. The only offensive formation which might require a sub-package is an empty backfield - a five receiver spread formation. Wade has had to use the sub-packages so much because he hasn't had the talent not to.

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Actually, offenses run a hurry up to catch you in your BASE defense to create the mismatches...
This is precisely what I said, although I obviously did not make myself clear. I specifically remember one play where the offense had just made a play to get inside the red zone and we were trying to change our defense. The ball was snapped before our players had time to set up. It was actually kind of hilarious.

If the offense is not making substitutions, we shouldn't have to.

For Wade's defense to perform to its full potential, the NT must demand the C/OG double team.
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Old 05-06-2013   #89
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Default Re: NT Concern...

It would be even nicer if you have both Vince Wilfork and Kyle Love (or Gnata) on the line along with Watt.

But I would settle for Jesse Williams at a cheaper price.
Obviously, Wade is taking a different approach nowadays, or so it seems.
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Old 05-06-2013   #90
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Default Re: NT Concern...

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Montori Hughes wasn't even impressive on film. I don't get it.
Agreed. I think most guys just want to vote for the small-school guy making it in the big leagues.
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Old 05-06-2013   #91
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Default Re: NT Concern...

Going into the draft, I hadn't done all my homework on Jesse Williams. It seems he had suffered a minor injury late in the season and it was speculated that this may have caused him to drop. I knew his "lower body" was not as developed as his upper body, some called it spindly. Because of his height, some questioned his ability to protect his lower body from injury.

I badly misjudged where he would be taken, but so did Kiper. The further he fell, the better value I felt he was. If taken in the 4th round, I think he would have won the starting spot. I don't think Travardo Williams will.

Maybe next year.
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Old 05-06-2013   #92
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Default Re: NT Concern...

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Going into the draft, I hadn't done all my homework on Jesse Williams. It seems he had suffered a minor injury late in the season and it was speculated that this may have caused him to drop. I knew his "lower body" was not as developed as his upper body, some called it spindly. Because of his height, some questioned his ability to protect his lower body from injury.

I badly misjudged where he would be taken, but so did Kiper. The further he fell, the better value I felt he was. If taken in the 4th round, I think he would have won the starting spot. I don't think Travardo Williams will.

Maybe next year.
I'm with you, but I guess Wade no longer likes big body???
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Old 05-06-2013   #93
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Default Re: NT Concern...

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I'm with you, but I guess Wade no longer likes big body???
Apparently Jesse Williams' back is JACKED UP. That being the reasoning for his complete FALL on draft day.
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Old 05-06-2013   #94
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Default Re: NT Concern...

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Originally Posted by Number19 View Post
Going into the draft, I hadn't done all my homework on Jesse Williams. It seems he had suffered a minor injury late in the season and it was speculated that this may have caused him to drop. I knew his "lower body" was not as developed as his upper body, some called it spindly. Because of his height, some questioned his ability to protect his lower body from injury.

I badly misjudged where he would be taken, but so did Kiper. The further he fell, the better value I felt he was. If taken in the 4th round, I think he would have won the starting spot. I don't think Travardo Williams will.

Maybe next year.
I don't believe Trevardo Williams is being given the starting job or expected to win the starting job. He'll be used just like the 49ers used Aldon Smith his rookie year. (3rd down pass-rushing specialist) (Williams will also compete on ST's, should be fun watching him and Braman race to see who can hit the returner first)

You watch the tape on Trevardo and he could have easily had 18-20 sacks his final year at UConn. Literally 1-2 Milliseconds saw to that. (Only finished with 12.5 but should have had 2 more sacks against Teddy Bridgewater and that Louisville offensive front) With us having Kareem, Joseph, Ed Reed, D.Manning, and even Cushing sitting and waiting in the secondary I can see Trevardo getting that extra millisecond. (Unless Watt gets there before he does)
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Old 05-07-2013   #95
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Default Re: NT Concern...

I just re-watched the Denver game. Even early after the safety, after the field goal, se were down by five & still owned the middle.
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Old 05-07-2013   #96
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Default Re: NT Concern...

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Originally Posted by Insideop View Post
How often was Ngata on the field? I'd say he's a "top tier" NT. Even if he's lost a step over the years I can't imagine him being off the field for too long. I just think, and I'm sure others on this MB do too, that if the Texans had a NT that size (6'4" 330 lbs) that has some quickness and can plug the middle, that it would help the ILB's and DE's regardless of what the Pats or any other team do. I do agree with you that "they don't grow on trees," but I hope if one does come along, the Texans don't pass on him just because "he will only play 2 downs and won't be on the field that much."
We just need a NT who can command a double team, don't really care if he weighs 290 or 350. Even if the he is not on the field most of the time it would help in the run game, keep guys off our ILB's, and help us when the opposing team passes when we have a NT on the field. Watt will be double teamed a ton so having a guy who can overpower the C would be beneficial.
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