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Old 04-09-2013   #41
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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I look forward to seeing how NE fares without a HoF QB behind center. It makes all the difference in the world.
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Old 04-09-2013   #42
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
There have been several coaches (including the Ravens and Bengals) who've said they study the Texans offense in the off-season. When Leach went to the Ravens, they had him give them pointers in how to block the ZBS the way we do.
By any chance do you have a source because the Ravens & Bengals seem to run their own types of offenses & aren't as playaction heavy as we are nor are they known for relying on the ZBS as much as we do. Studying a team on how to utilize the ZBS scheme is hardly imitation imo. They are not relying on the Texans to fill their playbook, they are studying a scheme by studying a team who depends on it heavily & had some success while possibly learning from some of its ex-players imo. That's a bit different imo. Adopting the ZBS scheme doesn't mean that all teams are "imitating" the Texans imo.

Once again, the 2012 Texans offense is quite different from the 2009 & 2010 offenses as it was pass heavy w/ slim to no running game in 2009 & learning what it was capable of in 2010 in the running game. A team who studied the Texans in 2009 or 2010 would see a different approach today w/out a doubt.
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Old 04-09-2013   #43
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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I do NOT understand why you guys are so hung up on that Denny's Menu thing.

Is Kubiak a conservative play-caller? Yeah. Do you really want him to call some more half-back passes? Really? Or would you prefer to keep winning games?

Most offensive coordinators who become head coaches either:
1) Can't get their team on track offensively (like Billick)
2) Get absolutely silly with their clock management and play choice (see Mike Martz, Jason Garrett)
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Old 04-10-2013   #44
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

Years ago we used to argue about this offense. I was on the side that says this offense never scores enough to win. They don't have explosive players anywhere on offense anymore. Andre is great,but he's not beating anyone like he used to. He still can get open,but most of his plays are in cuts for gainers. Daniels can beat lbs or safeties to give schaub an easy throw. The #2 wr has been largely a 0 with walters. Arian is great,but again,we're talking about a grnd it out type. Schaub? He's ok as long as u don't ask him to win games. They need more explosive players on offense.They also need a better qb who can make plays.
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Old 04-10-2013   #45
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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Every NFL Head Coach is "conservative" on third and long... Some more than others, but they all are. It's not College football. If they weren't, they would be Jerry Glanville's definition of NFL........ Not For Long.
by play breakdown i mean calling plays where at least 80% of the yardage is gained via a pass in the air & has a solid chance of being converted on 3rd and long.......vs the safe screen, draw or off tackle run play he usually calls where the skill player has to make up the majority of the yardage themselves by making defenders miss.

Way too often Kubiak just surrenders on drives with these kinds of plays.... do something that's not expected of you a few more times on drives...just make the defense at least "think" you might do this or that. Every game we lost last year we were thoroughly dominated on offense. And amongst the many reasons why that was the case is b/c the opposing defense had our number down pact. Why do you suppose that is? How is it that a defense can shut u down so easily?
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Old 04-10-2013   #46
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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Years ago we used to argue about this offense. I was on the side that says this offense never scores enough to win. They don't have explosive players anywhere on offense anymore. Andre is great,but he's not beating anyone like he used to. He still can get open,but most of his plays are in cuts for gainers. Daniels can beat lbs or safeties to give schaub an easy throw. The #2 wr has been largely a 0 with walters. Arian is great,but again,we're talking about a grnd it out type. Schaub? He's ok as long as u don't ask him to win games. They need more explosive players on offense.They also need a better qb who can make plays.
Years ago???

When we had Andre Davis or when we had Jacoby Jones?
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Old 04-10-2013   #47
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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By any chance do you have a source because the Ravens & Bengals seem to run their own types of offenses & aren't as playaction heavy as we are nor are they known for relying on the ZBS as much as we do. Studying a team on how to utilize the ZBS scheme is hardly imitation imo. They are not relying on the Texans to fill their playbook, they are studying a scheme by studying a team who depends on it heavily & had some success while possibly learning from some of its ex-players imo. That's a bit different imo. Adopting the ZBS scheme doesn't mean that all teams are "imitating" the Texans imo.

Once again, the 2012 Texans offense is quite different from the 2009 & 2010 offenses as it was pass heavy w/ slim to no running game in 2009 & learning what it was capable of in 2010 in the running game. A team who studied the Texans in 2009 or 2010 would see a different approach today w/out a doubt.
My source was the broadcasts when we played those teams. So you'd have to go back and watch those games and they might not have even been this past year's games.

But if you don't agree that trying to learn how a particular team does something so that you can do it yourself is a form of imitation, then we have a different definition of imitation and we'll have to agree to disagree.

And I disagree that our offense is "quite different" from the 2009 and 2010 offenses. The play-calling might be a little different but the offense is largely the same. What has changed is our blocking scheme. Since Gibbs left, we've updated and upgraded our blocking schemes to employ more pulling and trapping.
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Old 04-10-2013   #48
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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My source was the broadcasts when we played those teams. So you'd have to go back and watch those games and they might not have even been this past year's games.

But if you don't agree that trying to learn how a particular team does something so that you can do it yourself is a form of imitation, then we have a different definition of imitation and we'll have to agree to disagree.

And I disagree that our offense is "quite different" from the 2009 and 2010 offenses. The play-calling might be a little different but the offense is largely the same. What has changed is our blocking scheme. Since Gibbs left, we've updated and upgraded our blocking schemes to employ more pulling and trapping.
So basically there is no source we can refer back to unless we try to figure out which broadcast of the Ravens & Bengals games it was actually mentioned in which by your account could've been any of the years past & not necessarily last years. Well...that sounds like some solid information that we can all take to the bank.

Once again, I stand by my statement that just because a team adopts the ZBS scheme in whole or in parts does not mean that that team is "imitating" the Texans & adopting their offensive playbook or offensive approach. Which in my opinion is "imitation". Merely studying a team to learn how to utilize a scheme is researching IMO. The Texans are hardly the inventors of the ZBS, so not all of whom adopt it are Texan imitators IMO.

Here's some food for thought:
Texans NFL Offensive Ranks (NFL.com)

2009- Passing #1 Rushing #30
2010- Passing #4 Rushing #7
2011- Passing #8 Rushing #2
2012- Passing #11 Rushing #8

Now maybe you don't see a difference in the offensive approach, but it's pretty clear that in 2009 that the Texans were very pass heavy & as the years have gone by, & the emergence of Arian, the transition has gone from pass heavy to balanced in 2010 & then favoring the run in 2011 & 2012. So there has obviously been a transition from pass to run & the rankings seem to reflect it. Granted the playbook may contain plays that have been there since 2009, but which ones are utilized more often seems to have changed & studying the Texans offense in 2009 vs 2012 gives me reason to believe that the play calling, pass vs rush, would yield different results between the 2 yrs. The offensive rankings seem to agree.

Needless to say, I agree that we can agree to disagree on most of these items.
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Old 04-10-2013   #49
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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So basically there is no source we can refer back to unless we try to figure out which broadcast of the Ravens & Bengals games it was actually mentioned in which by your account could've been any of the years past & not necessarily last years. Well...that sounds like some solid information that we can all take to the bank.
So... you're calling me a liar?
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Old 04-10-2013   #50
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

Eh, not sure why you guys are even discussing the zone blocking. It's not like the Texans created it so not like any utilizing it are imitating the Texans. It's been around for years and there are several teams that use it. Heck, some high schools use it so it's not some Texans innovation.

In any case, the running game isn't the issue. It is the passing game. You don't go six quarters against the likes of the Vikings and Colts without scoring a touchdown and everything is picture perfect. Your redzone production (touchdown wise) doesn't drop dramatically around 20-25% during the season because all is well. Heck, you don't score just a measly 6 points at home to the Viqueens either.

So yeah, this offense could use some adjustments. Major ones? No, of course not. It still was productive most of the time. But this team needs to find the endzone more and not have to cave any time we have a 3rd and 8 or whatever constitutes the need for a draw play almost every single time. While the personnel needs some upgrading...or I should say we simply need some freaking speed...we could try using our personnel and fit the scheme around them instead of the other way around. After all, didn't we learn as kids that trying to shove a square peg into a round hole won't work? Well unless you use a sledgehammer or something.

Every facet on this team needs some work and I would think the end of the season told us that much. Just the changes do not need to be such a major upheavel as some may believe.
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Old 04-10-2013   #51
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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Once again, I stand by my statement that just because a team adopts the ZBS scheme in whole or in parts does not mean that that team is "imitating" the Texans & adopting their offensive playbook or offensive approach. Which in my opinion is "imitation". Merely studying a team to learn how to utilize a scheme is researching IMO. The Texans are hardly the inventors of the ZBS, so not all of whom adopt it are Texan imitators IMO.
If they study the Texans to learn how to do something and try to do it the way the Texans do it, then there's some imitation involved.

And the Bengals weren't studying our ZBS, they were studying our route combinations.

Oh, wait. No. I'm lying about that.

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Here's some food for thought:
Texans NFL Offensive Ranks (NFL.com)

2009- Passing #1 Rushing #30
2010- Passing #4 Rushing #7
2011- Passing #8 Rushing #2
2012- Passing #11 Rushing #8

Now maybe you don't see a difference in the offensive approach, but it's pretty clear that in 2009 that the Texans were very pass heavy & as the years have gone by, & the emergence of Arian, the transition has gone from pass heavy to balanced in 2010 & then favoring the run in 2011 & 2012. So there has obviously been a transition from pass to run & the rankings seem to reflect it. Granted the playbook may contain plays that have been there since 2009, but which ones are utilized more often seems to have changed & studying the Texans offense in 2009 vs 2012 gives me reason to believe that the play calling, pass vs rush, would yield different results between the 2 yrs. The offensive rankings seem to agree.

Needless to say, I agree that we can agree to disagree on most of these items.
Just because you choose to call more passing plays than rushing plays when the pass game is working better than the running game doesn't mean that it's a different offense.

Kubiak's goal in this offense has ALWAYS been to very balanced between rush and pass. In the past, he couldn't but with the emergence of his offensive line and his running backs, he's able to rely more on them the way he's always wanted to.

You're confusing the playcalling for the offense. Every week, the game plan changes. And with the change of the game plan, the play calling changes. Some weeks, you're going to call more long pass plays, some weeks, more screens and drop offs, and some weeks you're going to run more. But it's all the same offense.
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Old 04-10-2013   #52
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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Eh, not sure why you guys are even discussing the zone blocking. It's not like the Texans created it so not like any utilizing it are imitating the Texans. It's been around for years and there are several teams that use it. Heck, some high schools use it so it's not some Texans innovation.
Using the ZBS isn't imitating the Texans and I never said it was.

But the announcers at one of the games said that LEACH said that he sat down with the Ravens offense and taught them how the Texans run the ZBS. They sat down and watched tape on the Texans and Leach showed them what their reads were and how it was supposed to work. At that point, when they wanted to run a ZBS play, they tried to do it like the Texans did.

To me, that's imitation. They're not pulling out the whole playbook but they're imitating the way the Texans do certain things.
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Old 04-10-2013   #53
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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To me, that's imitation. They're not pulling out the whole playbook but they're imitating the way the Texans do certain things.
I won't pretend to remember when exactly but I have heard such comments made several times within the last couple years.
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Old 04-10-2013   #54
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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I won't pretend to remember when exactly but I have heard such comments made several times within the last couple years.
Same here. It's been discussed on air. I've heard it on more than one occasion. Flattery I tell ya.
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Old 04-10-2013   #55
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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Same here. It's been discussed on air. I've heard it on more than one occasion. Flattery I tell ya.
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Old 04-10-2013   #56
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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Old 04-10-2013   #57
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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Old 04-10-2013   #58
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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So... you're calling me a liar?
No Sir!! I take your word as the gospel regardless of whether or not it's backed by a source.

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
Kubiak's goal in this offense has ALWAYS been to very balanced between rush and pass. In the past, he couldn't but with the emergence of his offensive line and his running backs, he's able to rely more on them the way he's always wanted to.

You're confusing the playcalling for the offense. Every week, the game plan changes. And with the change of the game plan, the play calling changes. Some weeks, you're going to call more long pass plays, some weeks, more screens and drop offs, and some weeks you're going to run more. But it's all the same offense.
We know kubiak tries to be balanced. That goes w/out saying & the rankings I provided shows that. Never disputed that. What was disputed & what you seem to be missing is what the original debate was over. Someone stated that other teams have studied the Texans in attempt to imitate their offense for the last 3 seasons. Considering the Texan's offense has transformed from a pass heavy team in 09 to a slightly run heavy team in 2012, then it's safe to say those that have studied the Texans in hopes of imitating have noticed the shift as well. I'm not confused about game plans because that to goes w/out saying as well, plans change according to opponents. This was a change in offensive strategy due to the Texans limitations in the past. No RB, suspect o-line, & Swiss cheese defense=pass heavy offense In 2009. No real confusion, it's pretty straight forward IMO. Once again, we can agree to disagree because this horse has been beaten to the bones.

Last edited by tru80texan; 04-10-2013 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 04-10-2013   #59
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I won't pretend to remember when exactly but I have heard such comments made several times within the last couple years.
Your statement is probably the best way to make that claim, IMO, as opposed to saying:

"Fill in NFL team has studied the the Texans offense for years in attempt to imitate them. I recall this being said in fill in random year, but I can't remember for sure. Trust me!". Just my . lol!
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Old 04-11-2013   #60
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Default Re: [Grantland] Hey, Don't F*$% This Up: The Houston Texans' Outdated Offense

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Originally Posted by tru80texan View Post
Your statement is probably the best way to make that claim, IMO, as opposed to saying:

"Fill in NFL team has studied the the Texans offense for years in attempt to imitate them. I recall this being said in fill in random year, but I can't remember for sure. Trust me!". Just my . lol!
Usually, when they talked about imitating the Texans, it was about our formations, the motions, & the route combinations. It wasn't just one or two games, it was several. Just about every time they would go on about Andre always being open (& back then, it wasn't only on the play action) they would talk about other teams borrowing from the Texans.

Sometimes they would talk about it when they talked about our fast starts (back when we were a fast start team).

& then when they talked about Tj Yates, his college coach pretty much said he flat out ripped off our play-book, which was what a lot of people credited Tj's ability to pick up on our offense so quickly.

Honestly, it was mentioned so many times over the years, I'm more surprised that you don't remember one instance.
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