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Old 03-12-2013   #61
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Umm, we got a 3rd and a 4th for Demeco Ryans last year. Not bad for an aging, MLB, one year removed from a torn achilles tendon who was a liability in pass coverage when he was young and healthy.

How about the trade down in 2008 to drop back and grab Duane Brown one pick before the Chargers grabbed him. How does that move look now?

How about last off-season when he got us cap healthy without sacrificing the season and landed us (likely) 4 compensatory draft picks for this year, including a 3rd rounder?

How about outbidding the Bears a few years ago for an UDFA, offering a rare two year contract to lure him out of Chicago: Arian Foster?


He has let Dunta walk, and he let Mario walk away despite a lot of noise suggesting it was very foolish to do so... The Texans did have a choice, by the way. They could have restructured contracts and chosen not to pay some of Foster, Brown, Myers, Schaub... electing to "win now" with Mario and worry about the future when they had to. Good thing Rick and company avoided that nonsense!
We got a 4th and swapped 3rds
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Old 03-12-2013   #62
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Originally Posted by HOU-TEX View Post
We got a 4th and swapped 3rds
That's right... up about 10-15 spots in 3rd. Sorry about that.
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Old 03-12-2013   #63
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Paying Dunta 7+ million a year is overpaying him, and that's what we offered before franchising him for 10 million. We were stuck paying top dollar to a guy who never made a probowl because we had no depth at the position. 7 million a year in 2010 was too much, but we lucked out that he didn't take that deal and instead of paying him about 23 million, we only paid 10 for a one year rental. If you want to give kudos to Rick for that, then I don't know what to tell you. The situation was bad regardless of what we did.

On Winston:



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-eric-winston/

I believe it was on Twitter that he was angry about not getting asked to at least renegotiate. He did have two years left on his deal, so there was room to maneuver. Signing a deal worth more money (5.5m a year with the Chiefs, vs 4.5m salary on the Texans) goes to show the Texans missed an opportunity to trade him. Why wouldn't the Chiefs or someone else trade a 6th or swap picks a round apart for Winston to take on his non-guaranteed deal? If he doesn't work out, cut him and he costs less than what they paid for him this year. If Winston Justice can be traded for a swap of 6th round picks and a salary of 3.25m, then Winston ought to be worth at least a 6th outright...
I forgot how much we had offered Dunta. I agree that $7 million is also too much, but we didn't give him Falcons money. At that point, though, we were still in a position where we had to offer players more than they might have been worth.

I remember Winston on the radio, but I still don't think he would have renegotiated. His agent wasn't going to accept that when he knew he'd get as good or better money out there. As for the trading of him, I'm not part of anyone's inner circle so I don't know if they did shop him. Most teams are pretty tight lipped about that. Was Justice traded because the team needed to clear cap space or was he traded because they wanted to move him? GMs know each other's cap space. If the 49ers were in a bad situation and were going to have to cut Smith they weren't going to get a 2nd round pick for him. I realize they didn't want to pay the roster bonus, but that's different.
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Old 03-12-2013   #64
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Originally Posted by Heath Shuler View Post
I like Smith overall but damn; Amobi Okoye???????
I don't think any of us like what we got out of Okoye, but he wasn't what I would consider a bust. He just underperformed his draft status.

As a pretty high first rounder, we expected an impact player and he was never one of those, just an average or below average 43 Under-Tackle.
He never fulfilled his "potential", and so we hope Rick Smith and Kubiak learn the lesson not to draft a player too high based on his "potential".

Now if Mercilus turns out to be another ho-hum player; that would be OK, because he was drafted late in the first round. He has yet play up to his draft status, but he hasn't got as much opportunity as Brooks Reed did as a rookie.

I'd like to see him take the next step; otherwise, it will be a negative mark for the FO and the scouting department.
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Old 03-12-2013   #65
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
On Winston:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-eric-winston/

I believe it was on Twitter that he was angry about not getting asked to at least renegotiate. He did have two years left on his deal, so there was room to maneuver. Signing a deal worth more money (5.5m a year with the Chiefs, vs 4.5m salary on the Texans) goes to show the Texans missed an opportunity to trade him. Why wouldn't the Chiefs or someone else trade a 6th or swap picks a round apart for Winston to take on his non-guaranteed deal? If he doesn't work out, cut him and he costs less than what they paid for him this year. If Winston Justice can be traded for a swap of 6th round picks and a salary of 3.25m, then Winston ought to be worth at least a 6th outright...
It does look like we missed an opportunity to trade Winston, doesn't it?

But we really don't know how it plays out behind the scene.

Perhaps, teams would rather pay an extra $M and keep their 6th rounder?
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Old 03-12-2013   #66
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
It does look like we missed an opportunity to trade Winston, doesn't it?

But we really don't know how it plays out behind the scene.

Perhaps, teams would rather pay an extra $M and keep their 6th rounder?
True. Or maybe Winston wanted to stay in Houston and would have only renegotiated with a No Trade Clause. I couldn't see him taking a pay cut with the chance he'd be traded when he could just negotiate a higher contract with team(s) of his choosing.

Overall in the context this thread was constructed, I'm a Rick Smith fan and think he's done a great job improving this team.
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Old 03-12-2013   #67
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post
True. Or maybe Winston wanted to stay in Houston and would have only renegotiated with a No Trade Clause. I couldn't see him taking a pay cut with the chance he'd be traded when he could just negotiate a higher contract with team(s) of his choosing.

Overall in the context this thread was constructed, I'm a Rick Smith fan and think he's done a great job improving this team.
I thought about the no-trade clause, too.

I mean, Winston has been a decent RT; it's not like he's garbage.
You've got to give something to get something; that's the way of good business.
The days of squeezing players are gone.
Now, it's a free market where the price is dictate by the "perceived" value of a certain player.
The agents know that; and those guys are sharks!
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Old 03-12-2013   #68
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Originally Posted by TexanBacker93 View Post
I think it's been shown year in and year out that teams that rely upon free agency to build their teams don't win. How much money did Philly shell out for their "Dream Team"? They should be cutting Nnamdi today and they're no closer to competing for a playoff spot than Cleveland ever is.


Build through the draft.
Well the Patriots utilize FA as much if not more than drafts to assemble a team.

It's not a one or the other proposition, successfully acquiring players through either FA & the draft is the only way to build success.

Look at the Ravens, look at the 49ers, Giants, Steelers. They're active in FA. They just don't overpay for players (most players), they're willing to let their overpriced FAs walk, & they bring people in on the cheap.

Patriots took a chance on Moss & set records, traded a 2 & a 7 for Welker & broke records.
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Old 03-12-2013   #69
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Originally Posted by Ole Miss Texan View Post
True. Or maybe Winston wanted to stay in Houston and would have only renegotiated with a No Trade Clause.
The way I remembered it, the Texans found out a few days before the start of the new season what the cap number was going to be. Similar to what we saw this year.

They had 4 days, maybe a week, to find a way to get under the cap. I'd like to think they put feelers out rather quickly to find out what they could do, in addition to what they already planned on doing, to get under the cap that fast.

I don't think cutting Winston was part of their original plan. But they were up against a wall & had to do something. Maybe they talked to his agent & the feeling they got back was, yes they'll restructure, but it was going to take some time & they didn't have any.

I'm not the biggest Eric Winston fan, most likely I'm the biggest anti-Winston fan. But what we did felt rushed & not thought out to me.
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Old 03-12-2013   #70
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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ask the redskins and cowboys how that strategy worked out for them
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Originally Posted by TexanBacker93 View Post
Under the bad calls:

3&4. Wasn't this what the Redskins and Cowboys were punished for? I'm pretty certain teams were told they couldn't front load contracts for the uncapped year without penalty.
I don't think this point is well understood, so let me explain it better. The two teams hit by the league for overspending were the Redskins and Cowboys. The two teams that were not given additional capspace due to being near the spending limit were the Saints and Raiders. The other 28 teams were given 1.6 million in additional capspace for 2012 or 2013 in order to make things "even" among the teams.

The league negotiated somewhere in the range of 145 million as the cap point for the year, and all teams above it would be penalized an amount of the overage, while the teams below it were given a measly 1.6 million in additional cap space. The Texans only spent 123 million against the cap that year, while resigning Demeco Ryans to a 48 million dollar deal, and AJ to a 73.5m dollar total contract. Instead of giving out signing bonuses that we are still paying off through 2016, they could have given large roster bonuses or frontloaded 2010 base salaries, which would have been absorbed by the 2010 cap.

The Texans missed out on 20+ million in capspace that year, because they wanted to run the team like there was a cap. That's on Rick, for not structuring legitimate contract extensions into that year. There were 15 other teams that decided to spend more than the Texans that year, 8 of which were in the playoffs that year. 3 of those teams played in their conference championships in 2010, and one went on to win the Super Bowl (Packers). I'm not saying it's all about the money, but it certainly helps.

As for what happened to the Cowboys and Redskins, I don't think it's fair to say they truly "lost capspace". Instead, they overspent in 2010 and had some of it added their 2011 and 2012 caps. They took full advantage of the uncapped year, and were able to offload a lot of future costs into it. Dallas lost 10 million over 2011/12. They spent 166.5 million in 2010, and could have spent up to 115m in 2011 and 115.6m 2012. They could have spent a total of 397.1 million over 3 years or 132.36 million a year average. Now I know they didn't spend exactly that much, but they had the extra cap space which is a competitive advantage.

For the Redskins they spent 178.2m in 2010, and lost 18m in the other years. So their 3 year max spending limit was: 178.2m + 102m + 102.6m = 382.8 / 3 years = 127.6m average.

Saints: 145 + 120 + 120.6 = 385.6 / 3 = 128.53

Packers: 135.3+120+120.6+1.6 = 377.5 / 3 = 125.83

Texans: 123.1 + 120 + 120.6 + 1.6 = 365.3 / 3 = 121.76

(note: with the cap rollover change in the new CBA, total capspace in 2011 and beyond is what matters, not the actual amount spent)

Those teams were still exceeding the cap of 120 million a year, while the Texans spent 123 million in 2010. So the Cowboys got an extra 30 million in total cap space, while others got less than that, but still more than the Texans. The Cowboys used that space to use to pay guys like Miles Austin and Demarcus Ware, who they knew they were going to keep. The Texans declined to pay guys like Ryans and AJ who were cornerstone players at the time, and they missed out on the extra capspace.

While many Cowboys and Redskin fans will claim they got shafted in this ordeal, the fact is their teams still had the most money to work with over the 3 year span affected by these decisions. Whether they spent it wisely is a whole different discussion, but the fact remains the Texans missed out on at least 20 million dollars in capspace which could have been useful today.
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Old 03-12-2013   #71
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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I don't think this point is well understood, so let me explain it better.
MSR.
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Old 03-12-2013   #72
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Well the Patriots utilize FA as much if not more than drafts to assemble a team.

It's not a one or the other proposition, successfully acquiring players through either FA & the draft is the only way to build success.

Look at the Ravens, look at the 49ers, Giants, Steelers. They're active in FA. They just don't overpay for players (most players), they're willing to let their overpriced FAs walk, & they bring people in on the cheap.

Patriots took a chance on Moss & set records, traded a 2 & a 7 for Welker & broke records.
Except the Patriots rarely go flashy with FA pickups. They seem to find guys that were sitting in someone else's garage or even their garbage cans. They grab players like Welker that 2 other teams had and didn't know what to do with. Or, they didn't have competent QBs that could get him the ball. He didn't cost them a lot when they first signed him.

Even Harrison, a key for their SB winning teams, didn't cost a lot after he'd been cut by San Diego. The same goes for Seau. They get guys on the cheap that can fill a role and don't sabotage the team by hamstringing their cap.

I don't mind the Texans getting involved at that level. I just hesitate when I see fans salivating over the Mike Wallace's of the FA world. He is going to get $10 million a year or more. We'd have to forget about keeping Watt when he becomes a FA or cut a lot of other core players.

How about this adjustment to my "Build through the draft" mantra?

Build through the draft and add a few value pieces in Free Agency.
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Old 03-12-2013   #73
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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MSR.
Got him.
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Old 03-12-2013   #74
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Build through the draft and add a few value pieces in Free Agency.
How 'bout, "Dont Fk it up!!"

I think that covers most bases.
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Old 03-12-2013   #75
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

I can't say one way or another yet Dutch, got to study all the details, which I don't think I ever will.

What I know is that "cooking the book" always ends up in a bad way.
Stretching yourself too thin is another way.

On top of all the personnel moves the Skins pulled, even without knowing the details at the time, I figured they're gonna pay - just a matter of time.
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Old 03-12-2013   #76
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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pass me some of that; when SheTexan sees this it's gonna get good.

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Old 03-12-2013   #77
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

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Originally Posted by Heath Shuler View Post
I like Smith overall but damn; Amobi Okoye???????
Nobody, but nobody bats 1.000. I would put Amobi as the biggest swing-and-miss of his tenure. We could have had Patrick Willis to go along side DeMeco.
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Old 03-12-2013   #78
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

Rick Smith is at least above average, but I wouldn't go to much farther than that as long as Kubiak is still the head coach.
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Old 03-12-2013   #79
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

Meh, the Dunta deal doesn't count. We offered roughly the same amount of money as Atlanta. Dunta was an ass, and simply wanted to go to another team.

What will be really interesting is to see how he handles JJ Watt's next contract in a few years. In order to keep JJ, damn-near everybody will have to go.

JJ's next contract, Andre's likely retirement and Schaub's future will all hit this team around the same time in a few years. It'll be interesting to see how Smith handles each while building a competitive team.
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Old 03-12-2013   #80
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Default Re: Rick Smith looks smarter every day

Quote:
Originally Posted by houstonspartan View Post
Meh, the Dunta deal doesn't count. We offered roughly the same amount of money as Atlanta. Dunta was an ass, and simply wanted to go to another team.

What will be really interesting is to see how he handles JJ Watt's next contract in a few years. In order to keep JJ, damn-near everybody will have to go.

JJ's next contract, Andre's likely retirement and Schaub's future will all hit this team around the same time in a few years. It'll be interesting to see how Smith handles each while building a competitive team.
Watt can be franchised for a couple years, if needed. They get him done.

The current atmosphere in the NFL is the most difficult in the NFL in modern history. Teams are dealing with a cap that shrunk 2 years ago. The Texans have thrived in that environment with two consecutive playoff appearances and appear poised to continue success. They have a healthy cap situation, a stockpile of youth and draft picks. Smile!
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