Vance Joseph on DBs

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by Texan_Bill

YES........... and NO!!

While the overall starting talent has improved, much of the depth has decipated.

Shyte happens with good teams. Other teams "cherry pick" certain players.

Nature of the beast, "if you will"..

C'mon on now? You actually believe the quality of depth has not improved? I beg to differ. The talent across the board has gotten better compared to let's say 2010 when the ST's were an issue then as well. Braman, Dobbins, Harris, Carmichael, Crick, Ball, & even Keo are better ST & position players then those players that littered the 2010 team & yet we have the same pitiful results on ST's. If you refuse to acknowledge that then its best we agree to disagree because I'm not a member of the Marciano fan club & it seems you may be.

[Insideop]

Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger

Found this Nov. 2010 piece pretty interesting in the context of "NFL ready" and this discussion.

link

This whole article seems to point to one thing, sometimes we the fan, who like to think we know it all, really don't, and some of the time, the NFL personnel don't get it right either, but maybe they are more right than we are.

In this article there are 3 Texans players taken in the 1st round (07, 08, and 10). One of those players, basically trashed by them, is now a Pro Bowl LT and considered to be one of the best in the NFL (Brown). Another, after 3 years, has developed in to a solid CB while being criticized and ridiculed almost every step of the way (Jackson). The 3rd player (Okoye) showed signs early in his rookie year but never lived up to the hype and was basically let go after his 3rd yr (I think.) with the team. I guess my question to BRB is, will they do a real piece about looking back now and admit they were a bit shortsighted with Brown and Jackson? Probably not.

I know sometimes, we the fan, get impatient and expect players (especially 1st rounders) to step on the field and perform up to All Pro levels. In reality, that is rare and usually depends on the position of the player. I see this impatient attitude today, for example, with people saying Newton is no good and we need to get another RT. Give him some time. He's only been in the system 2 years and started 1 year. My guess is he will make a big improvement this season, and if not, Harris, or another draft pick, will be there to take his place. But, we have to give him a chance. Just like they did with Brown and Jackson, and yes, even Okoye. JMO!

[deucetx]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

All rookies are going to display flaws when coming to the NFL. Whether his name is Joe Haden, Patrick Patterson, Kyle Wilson, or Kareem Jackson.

Well...that is sort of a no kidding comment. Had little to do with your point though. Your point was players around him affecting his ability and at corner and for the issues he had that was not true and tru80's point was KJ was not as NFL ready as the Texans touted. Oh and you are rather very wrong about Haden. He was a top corner from start and is a top definition of NFL ready.

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

First of all, the "didn't turn his head around" is overplayed by guys who don't know what they are looking at. It's called pass interference. If you don't touch the guy, it's not interference no matter where your head is. You won't find a coach that won't teach a DB how to play a receiver face to face.

Overplayed? Umm...no, it is not. It is part of the position. Saying something is overplayed when it is a basic part of developing at the position is quite the stretch and making excuses. It is an essential part of playing the position. You are taught this from peewee (if the coach knows anything) how to run with the receiver and when to look for the ball and the timing which were things KJ lacked that once again...had nothing to do with the personnel around him like you were trying to state.

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

There is a time to look for the ball & there is a time to play the receiver. There is also a time when the player should play the ball but if that time has passed, he should play the reciever. Rookies find themselves in the latter situation way too often, but as long as they don't touch the receiver, it's all good. The ref may call it, but in the film room the coach is going to say, "You should have turned there, but you didn't. You recovered fine, don't worry about the ref."

Would love to meet a coach that will just brush it off like that since I have yet to talk to one that does and my secondary coaches sure didn't. We are talking passes into the deep third which means long gains. A coach that brushes it off like that is not developing the player. It is not 'all good' if you do not turn around to find the ball time and time again which was the case. Of course there is a time to play the ball. It is what you are coached and taught from the start.

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Then as far as turning his hips..... you either got it or you don't. You're not going to take a guy who doesn't have it & teach it to him in three years. Learning how fast an NFL receiver will get on top of you, learning how fast an NFL receiver will blow right past you, learning how strong an NFL receiver is, learning how fast and strong an NFL receivers hands are, even the most NFL ready corner is going to have a learning curve here, regardless what his name is.

Yes, you can teach and work on a corner's fluid movements and how to better open themselves up even at that level. Why do you think they have secondary coaches? It isn't just to teach them coverages. It is to help them develop and this is a part that they are still taught in the NFL and worked on. Just like how QB's are still taught proper footwork though they should have learned it long ago. It's part of the process.

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Do you not think Joe Haden, Kyle Wilson, and Patrick Peterson are better at those basic cornerback techniques now than they were when they were rookies? Do you think Glover Quin & Devin McCourty might not have that ability & maybe that's why they're playing safety now & not corner?

Of course they are. That wasn't the point of the convo. The point was how NFL ready was he when drafted. And you keep tossing names out there and aren't even close on the production some of them had their rookie year:

Joe Haden: 50.1 QB Rating; 53.2 catch percentage
Kyle Wilson (limited snaps as a nickle): 77.9 QB rating; 50 catch percentage
Patrick Peterson: 85 QB Rating; 59.3 catch percentage
Kareem Jackson: 111.8 QB Rating; 66.3 catch percentage

For comparison sake:

Devin McCourty (as a corner): 57 QB Rating; 55.6 catch percentage

Since 2010 no 1st round CB has had a higher QB rating than Kareem's rookie season and only Morris Claiborne who royally sucked this season for the boys (thankfully) had a higher catch percentage by by 3.3 (69.6)

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

If I've got Derrell Revis on one side of the field, then I've got help on my side of the field, I'm not on an Island as much as Kareem was. I'm able to face the QB longer & jump routes, and gamble. My mistakes won't look so bad, because someone is going to stop Roy Williams from running 70 yards to the endzone.

A corner is always on an island unless the defense rolls a safety your way to help you. If they do that, that means you have issues in your coverage and a handicap. As it is using Revis as a comparison is a stretch since he is the best lockdown corner since Deion Sanders and are rare finds as is. Kareem had basic defensive responsibilities no different than he has now with improved talent around him. Nothing has changed.

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

If you watched Kareem play as a rookie, you could see he had speed, he had cover skills, he was physical at the line, & he was a sure tackler. He made some rookie mistakes, he got beat by some veteran receivers (& some not so veteran receivers). But if you only focused on the bad plays & did not pay attention to the good plays (& there were a lot more good plays), then yeah I can understand thinking he was the worst CB in the league.

Again, that has little to do with the convo you are having. You are having a specific convo about Kareems NFL readiness when drafted. And the stats I just showed you illustrate there weren't a lot more good plays as you are stating.

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

But to believe he went from the worst CB in the league to one of the best in 3 seasons... yeah, that was all coaching. I understand if you don't think he's one of the best, but he is.

Again...not the convo you were having. And yes, he was graded as one of the worse his rookie year. If I take the PFF grade he was 96th out of 100. He was also 10th in highest QB rating. He also was 5th in YAC allowed (highest of course) and 5th in yard per completion (16.2).

And since players do get development and improve then yes most likely coaching and experience helped him get better. Did he have tools to work with? Of course. But that doesn't mean he was NFL ready. There is a reason his coach said he was not ready for the jump and needed another year of learning and developing. Kareem came out anyway and we essentially made ourselves that key product for his development instead of him taking that year in college.

Apologies for long post but making excuses for poor play is just silly to me. He had a freaking horrible rookie season. There's nothing wrong with admitting that and that he wasn't as NFL ready as the Texans touted to sell him to fans. What is important is he did develop and improve each year. Nothing wrong with going back and saying he played like **** when he did play like it. Don't know why it is difficult for fans to admit it.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by deucetx

Apologies for long post but making excuses for poor play is just silly to me. He had a freaking horrible rookie season. There's nothing wrong with admitting that and that he wasn't as NFL ready as the Texans touted to sell him to fans. What is important is he did develop and improve each year. Nothing wrong with going back and saying he played like **** when he did play like it. Don't know why it is difficult for fans to admit it.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. You can put me on a top 10 passing defense & I'm going to look so good. You put me on the 30th rank defense, I'm going to look worse. My stats are going to look worse.

I just don't believe you can judge a players "NFL Readiness" on one of the worst defenses in the league. You can't judge a DBs "NFL Readiness" on the worst pass defense in the league. Sure, that rookie most likely played into that ranking. That's would explain why Arizona was 10th & not 4th (not saying that Arizona was 10th, it's just an example), that would explain why Cleveland is 6th instead of 5th (again, just an example). Kareem making us 32nd when we "should have been 31 doesn't mean he wasn't NFL ready.

Brian Cushing on that same defense did not look anywhere near the elite, 2 time DROY, LB that he is.

But for Kareem to play at the level he is now, just 3 years later leeds me to believe he was closer to that NFL Ready than not.

[deucetx]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. You can put me on a top 10 passing defense & I'm going to look so good. You put me on the 30th rank defense, I'm going to look worse. My stats are going to look worse.

I just don't believe you can judge a players "NFL Readiness" on one of the worst defenses in the league. You can't judge a DBs "NFL Readiness" on the worst pass defense in the league. Sure, that rookie most likely played into that ranking. That's would explain why Arizona was 10th & not 4th (not saying that Arizona was 10th, it's just an example), that would explain why Cleveland is 6th instead of 5th (again, just an example). Kareem making us 32nd when we "should have been 31 doesn't mean he wasn't NFL ready.

Brian Cushing on that same defense did not look anywhere near the elite, 2 time DROY, LB that he is.

But for Kareem to play at the level he is now, just 3 years later leeds me to believe he was closer to that NFL Ready than not.

Yep will agree to disagree because if it was this simple Brice McCain would have looked good this year with the talent around him. He was one of the worse corners. Our OLB's would have been amongst the best pass rushers with Watt having such a great push and season that demanded double teams....they were some of the worse.

Plus when our defense was actually better last season Jackson would have had an amazing season...he had a below average one (110.9 rating; 60.4 catch%) having to share it Jason Allen while having a much better one this season with a weaker defense (16th against the pass). Last year the defensive was 3rd against the pass. And I would hardly say Allen or Kareem looked great in 2011 despite Joseph looking like a top 3 corner.

Kind of shows the opposite of what you're saying but whatever floats your boat, heh.

...and the how heck does someone become 2 time Defensive rookie of the year? That would be one hell of a feat for my man Cush! Will chalk it up to a typo, lol.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. You can put me on a top 10 passing defense & I'm going to look so good. You put me on the 30th rank defense, I'm going to look worse. My stats are going to look worse.

I just don't believe you can judge a players "NFL Readiness" on one of the worst defenses in the league. You can't judge a DBs "NFL Readiness" on the worst pass defense in the league. Sure, that rookie most likely played into that ranking. That's would explain why Arizona was 10th & not 4th (not saying that Arizona was 10th, it's just an example), that would explain why Cleveland is 6th instead of 5th (again, just an example). Kareem making us 32nd when we "should have been 31 doesn't mean he wasn't NFL ready.

Brian Cushing on that same defense did not look anywhere near the elite, 2 time DROY, LB that he is.

But for Kareem to play at the level he is now, just 3 years later leeds me to believe he was closer to that NFL Ready than not.

He was part of the reason that defense looked so bad, mainly the secondary.


The DB's were about the same minus dunta and while they weren't great, they got a lot worse when Kareem came along.

Go listen to his position coach. He was on the radio a little while back talking about how awful his technique was and how bad he was at playing the ball. Vance Joseph himself talked about how bad kj was in his rookie year. He talked about why he didn't make plays on the ball and he said it was because his technique was bad and he was rarely in position to make the plays.

But he said that Kareem has improved leaps and bounds and he talked about how he's become more of a technician and how he is now in better position and can now play the ball more effectively.

You can believe what you want to believe, but Kareem was bad his rookie year all by himself, regardless of what anyone else was doing. He's gotten much, much better.

Oh and btw, on of those "terrible players" just won a ring as a starter and has been a pretty good player every year except that one. Another one of those players is still starting for us, albeit in a different position.

[Rey]

Cush wad voted droy had the award taken away, and voted droy again.

[deucetx]

Originally Posted by Rey

Cush wad voted droy had the award taken away, and voted droy again.

Heh that's the same year but I guess if he was being technical that could qualify...in a strange way. Oh and very much agree with your above post

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by deucetx

Plus when our defense was actually better last season Jackson would have had an amazing season...he had a below average one (110.9 rating; 60.4 catch%) having to share it Jason Allen while having a much better one this season with a weaker defense (16th against the pass). Last year the defensive was 3rd against the pass. And I would hardly say Allen or Kareem looked great in 2011 despite Joseph looking like a top 3 corner.

Kind of shows the opposite of what you're saying but whatever floats your boat, heh.

Good points, but when they change the coaching staff, that changes the whole "NFL Ready" definition.

Originally Posted by deucetx

...and the how heck does someone become 2 time Defensive rookie of the year? That would be one hell of a feat for my man Cush! Will chalk it up to a typo, lol.

Not a typo. Cushing won it, then they took it away because of the PED thing, then they gave it back to him.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Rey

Oh and btw, on of those "terrible players" just won a ring as a starter and has been a pretty good player every year except that one. Another one of those players is still starting for us, albeit in a different position.

BTW, never said they were terrible players, just posed the question that maybe they couldn't develop the skills needed to play corner at a high level. Not saying they couldn't, just posing the question.

Or maybe I'm not sure which "terrible players" we're talking about.