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Old 02-19-2013   #21
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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Originally Posted by tru80texan View Post
So even by your own definition the Texans evaluation was completely wrong because Kareem was anything but ready to compete in the NFL as a rookie. Normally competing equates to being somewhat effective, so I'm not quite sure what your argument is because Kareem wasnt effective in any scheme nor did he compete. This has NOTHING to do w/ being a "star" & everything to do w/ being able to at least hold your own a majority of the time which is what the Texans falsely believed & preached. We all know that the Texans were looking for a cb & wanted one that could start from day 1 w/ the 1st round pick. They werent picking Kareem to be the "NFL ready" bench warmer. KJ was a starter as soon as the Texans called his name & obviously he was not ready for the NFL.
I never said anything about Kareem and my comment was meant to be an overall obvious definition of the term "NFL ready." The definition I gave is clearly what the term means. As far as Kareem, he obviously was not "NFL ready." He has since improved and now is a formidable player. So, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove? That the Texans FO was wrong initially? Yes, your right about that.

I guess my post was simply to say that everything in your post is exaggerated garbage outside of you saying that the FO was initially wrong in its evaluation of Kareem. I'm sorry, I tend to come out of the shadows when I read posts that are so far from correct.

To act as if every potential prospect is not evaluated with scheme in mind by every single team that evaluates them is just wrong.
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Old 02-19-2013   #22
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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I never said anything about Kareem and my comment was meant to be an overall obvious definition of the term "NFL ready." The definition I gave is clearly what the term means. As far as Kareem, he obviously was not "NFL ready." He has since improved and now is a formidable player. So, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove? That the Texans FO was wrong initially? Yes, your right about that.

I guess my post was simply to say that everything in your post is exaggerated garbage outside of you saying that the FO was initially wrong in its evaluation of Kareem. I'm sorry, I tend to come out of the shadows when I read posts that are so far from correct.

To act as if every potential prospect is not evaluated with scheme in mind by every single team that evaluates them is just wrong.
I'm not trying to prove anything. It's already been proven & I'm just stating it, which by the way you have admitted what I'm saying is correct. You responded to me, you were not part of my original post so it seems it is you who is trying to prove something but have failed to accomplish it. KJ was incorrectly evaluated by the FO & Kubiak despite their claims that he was "NFL Ready". That is fact, not exaggeration. It is also fact that the player selected was expected to be a starter day 1 & many, analysts & fans, were surprised by the Jackson pick & questioned it considering others such McCourty, Wilson, & Robinson were all still available to be selected & by far touted more then Kareem prior to the draft. The Texans justification for passing on the others & selecting KJ was that he was "NFL Ready".

Once again, "NFL ready" normally means ready to play & compete on the NFL level, as we have both agreed on, & if there are faults in ones game it normally noted & examined to no end prior to the draft. While all rookies need some developing those that are deemed "NFL ready" are normally used to describe the better ones that need little development to compete day 1 & other descriptions are used to describe those that lack in certain areas IMO. Words such as "raw" for example. I hope that helps clear up my definition of " NFL ready" for you because there was hardly much exaggeration, if any, & for the most part you seem to agree w/ most & yet fail to realize it. I suppose we will agree to disagree despite agreeing on most of my so-called "exaggeration". The shadows do seem best for some folks.
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Old 02-19-2013   #23
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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"NFL Ready" normally equates to being ready to play day 1 in any scheme in the NFL from what I've come to learn. Those that have limitations are normally described as such w/ descriptions such as "cover 2 type" or "press cb". Normally meaning they lack in 1 style while possibly being better suited for the other.
To say that a player deemed "NFL ready" should be ready to play day 1 in any scheme is exaggeration.

Every player has limitations. 99% of players are better suited for one scheme over another. There are always areas that players excel at more than others.

Point is, it is unnecessary to exaggerate in order to prove a point, such as that Kareem was improperly evaluated by the Texans FO. That point is easily proven without exaggeration. It is something people tend to do on message boards to try and stand out, they start to exaggerate to make a point that hasn't been made before. It is why many threads turn into an unrealistic black and white discussion. Sorry it is just a pet peeve of mine. Carry on.
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Old 02-19-2013   #24
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
To say that a player deemed "NFL ready" should be ready to play day 1 in any scheme is exaggeration.

Every player has limitations. 99% of players are better suited for one scheme over another. There are always areas that players excel at more than others.

Point is, it is unnecessary to exaggerate in order to prove a point, such as that Kareem was improperly evaluated by the Texans FO. That point is easily proven without exaggeration. It is something people tend to do on message boards to try and stand out, they start to exaggerate to make a point that hasn't been made before. It is why many threads turn into an unrealistic black and white discussion. Sorry it is just a pet peeve of mine. Carry on.
Then that is a mistake that is made by many associated w/ the NFL (analysts, draft experts, scouts, coaches, GM's, agents) year in & year out, but is hardly an exaggeration on some accounts as rookies have been able to come into the NFL & successfully contribute day 1. So the "NFL ready" description can be & has been accurate for some. It just so happens Kubiak & the Texans FO were wrong on their claim. Once again, if it was an exaggeration it was not one that I made, but one that I only revisited. Don't shoot the messenger.
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Old 02-19-2013   #25
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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KJ was incorrectly evaluated by the FO & Kubiak despite their claims that he was "NFL Ready". That is fact, not exaggeration. It is also fact that the player selected was expected to be a starter day 1 & many, analysts & fans, were surprised by the Jackson pick & questioned it considering others such McCourty, Wilson, & Robinson were all still available to be selected & by far touted more then Kareem prior to the draft. The Texans justification for passing on the others & selecting KJ was that he was "NFL Ready".
Well, I do remember they said most NFL ready. I don't know if they said most NFL ready in the draft, or the most NFL ready of the remaining DBs.

I don't know this Robinson guy you speak of, but I do remember many people had Wilson & McCourty rated above Kj.

As far as I know, Wilson is still not a starter on his team. McCourty did have a great rookie season, but the Patriots did move him to safety. One could say that McCourty was the most NFL ready, but if you watch how the defenses played around them, it could be argued that Kj was actually the most NFL ready.
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Old 02-19-2013   #26
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

Found this Nov. 2010 piece pretty interesting in the context of "NFL ready" and this discussion.

Quote:
Cutting Corners: The Kareem Jackson Pick in Hindsight

But after the past couple of drafts, many are starting to wonder if they were smart in 2006, or just lucky. These are the same guys who drafted Amobi Okoye, Duane Brown and the new whipping boy of Battle Red nation, Kareem Jackson. And these were just the first round picks. We’ve debated wildly over the Amobi pick many times over, so I won’t rehash that here, and if you’ve read anything that Rivers has written, you can’t really argue about the many failings of Duane Brown. What I want to spotlight today is looking at the Kareem Jackson pick in hindsight and who Houston passed on to take him. It all begins after the jump…

You can look back at the 2007 and 2008 drafts and see some of the Pro Bowl players Houston missed out on, but I want to focus on the 2010 draft. Before the draft even began, most were on the "Best Corner Available at #20" bandwagon. Even though there were about 17 articles here on BRB about why we should draft a fat ass lineman and they made a lot of sense, we all knew that wasn't going to happen with a Bill Kollar scheme.

So, with the focus on the secondary, and mainly the cornerback position with the departure of Dunta Robinson, the wish lists all came out. Some were fathomable, while others were beyond a pipe dream, like some believing that Joe Haden would drop to #20 because of a poor pro day. There was plenty of first round talent corners and with the 17 teams in front of Houston (the 49ers and Seahawks both had two picks in the first round) seemingly having more pressing needs, there should be a steal waiting at #20.

After Haden was selected by Cleveland and Ryan Mathews (who John McClain was CERTAIN Houston would pick) went off the board to San Diego, there was still some good talent on the board. When Seattle crushed the hearts of the UT faithful on BRB by taking Safety Earl Thomas, all eyes turned to Boise State standout CB Kyle Wilson (who was who I had personally campaigned for) and Rutgers CB Devin McCourty. Either would be a huge upgrade for the Texans' weak secondary and a relative steal at #20. And it appeared one of them would be a Texan when Houston went on the clock with both still there. We all know what happened next...

"With the 20th pick in the 2010 NFL Draft, Houston selects Kareem Jackson, Cornerback, Alabama."

This was met with immediate shock on the draft thread here on BRB. Who?!?! That was the immediate reaction. The guy was projected to be a second-rounder at best. I even recall seeing some that had him slipping to the early third round. It was a real head scratcher, for sure. Perhaps not a "reach" by definition, but a "reach" in the opinions of many.

To be honest, the fallout didn't last that long. It quickly turned to statements like "Well, he played in the SEC" and "Smithiak knows what they're doing." But after eight games in the NFL, Kareem Jackson looks like an undrafted free agent. He is good to get burned at least once or twice on a big play every single game, and he's picked on by opposing quarterbacks all game long. This has led many to label the youngster a bust.

Personally, I'm not there...yet. He is definitely a project and he shouldn't be starting, that's for sure. Do I think he'll be a great corner someday? Probably not. Will he be an NFL caliber corner? Probably. Someday. My problem with the pick is that you don't take a project guy at #20 overall, especially when there were more NFL ready corners available at that spot.

It isn't like Frank Bush's defensive scheme is helping Jackson any, but at some point you have to at least show some flashes of why you were a first round selection and the second corner taken overall in a very stacked draft. Sure, he has two interceptions and that is more than Dunta has done in Atlanta, but those are attributed more to bad throws by opposing QBs after taking a big hit. Plus, Kareem's tackling has been just beyond poor. There was a play in the game yesterday where he got turned around twice in pursuit of a ball carrier and let a 10 yard gain turn into about a 40 yard gain. He just flat out looked drunk on the play and it made me want to get (even more) drunk myself.
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Old 02-19-2013   #27
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

Good find CND, I liked McCourty and my draft partners and I discussed him at length but I was huge supporter of Wilson. I am okay with where KJ is now but believe Wilson under Texans new coaches would be even better. My focus today is on Harris and Roc developing into better players. I read that the DB coach said Harris is now in playing shape. So go get some!
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Old 02-19-2013   #28
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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Good find CND, I liked McCourty and my draft partners and I discussed him at length but I was huge supporter of Wilson. I am okay with where KJ is now but believe Wilson under Texans new coaches would be even better.
That's very possible.

One thing about Kj though, how many players do you think would be strong enough to go through what he went through in 2010 & still have the confidence to play at a high level?

Frank Bush was still Frank Bush & I don't think any corner would have fared any better considering everything else that defense went through.

I also think Wilson is in a "bad" situation & him not starting doesn't say anything about his performance. Letting Revis go would say a lot. Paying a shtload of money to Revis would as well.

I would have preferred the Jets way of addressing that situation much better than ours. They had a good CB, they traded for a "decent" CB, & they drafted the best CB available to them. They also acquired Kerry Rhodes who I thought was a pretty good safety back in the day.
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Old 02-19-2013   #29
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

Yeah no one can complain about KJ's mental toughness and Kubes constantly referred to that. It is one thing to see new coaches correct KJ into a good starter but I will really be bragging if they do same with Roc and Brandon. That would solidify that position. If we draft a corner top 3 rounds that is an "uh, oh" moment for me (unless he will be moved to safety).
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Old 02-19-2013   #30
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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Well, I do remember they said most NFL ready. I don't know if they said most NFL ready in the draft, or the most NFL ready of the remaining DBs.

I don't know this Robinson guy you speak of, but I do remember many people had Wilson & McCourty rated above Kj.

As far as I know, Wilson is still not a starter on his team. McCourty did have a great rookie season, but the Patriots did move him to safety. One could say that McCourty was the most NFL ready, but if you watch how the defenses played around them, it could be argued that Kj was actually the most NFL ready.
Holding it against Wilson for being stuck behind Cromartie & Revis is a bit unfair imo. Those 2 are quality cb's to say the least & if Kareem were on the same team w/ those 2 im sure he would be stuck on the bench as well. McCourty has proven to be a decent cb, & now safety from day 1, so if anyone was "NFL ready" it was him imo. Trying to convince otherwise would be a tall order because Kareem was pathetic & pitiful in 2010 while McCourty was a Pro Bowler.

Does it matter how or whom they were defining as "nfl ready"? They were wrong when its all said & done because outside of Haden the Texans had their pick of whomever they wanted. The Jackson pick was a surprise to most to say the least & it was justified by saying he was NFL ready...that was incorrect. No sense in crying over spilt milk, but it does raise questions about Kubiak & Smith's talent evaluations.

Patrick Robinson is a cb from FSU who was drafted by & started for the Saints this last season. Many analysts had him after Wilson & McCourty & some predicted the Texans could choose him. He was projected as 1st round talent by most in 2010.
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Old 02-19-2013   #31
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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I cant recall the ST's ever really being an asset & they have been under Marciano's watch since day 1. In fact, I think it could easily be said that the ST's are regressing. 2010 was an ugly year for the Texans & ST's definitely had their lows that year as well. I think the last 3 years they have sucked to be honest. An assistant ST's coach isn't needed...a new ST's coach all together is imo.
I absolutely agree that the ST's have regressed. That said, it would be disingenuous to suggest the Texans haven't had good special teams under Marciano, nor other teams that he's worked for.

Would you be open to the idea that personnel that he has to work with plays a part in the ST's performance?

Hey, if a change needs to be made for the sake of change, I'm okay with that. To lay it at the feet of one man is misguided at best because there are so many other moving parts, which many posters are reluctant to admit.
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Old 02-19-2013   #32
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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Holding it against Wilson for being stuck behind Cromartie & Revis is a bit unfair imo. Those 2 are quality cb's to say the least & if Kareem were on the same team w/ those 2 im sure he would be stuck on the bench as well.
If being on a team with two quality cbs should not be held against Wilson, then being on a team without a quality DB & LBs that struggle in coverage should not be held against Kareem.

We see Kareem now, without the suspect play around him & he appears to be a quality player. We really don't know what Kareem would've looked like with quality players around him as a rookie.

Personally, I find it difficult to say the Smithiak assessment was wrong in light of the Frank Bush defense he was working in.
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Old 02-19-2013   #33
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If being on a team with two quality cbs should not be held against Wilson, then being on a team without a quality DB & LBs that struggle in coverage should not be held against Kareem.

We see Kareem now, without the suspect play around him & he appears to be a quality player. We really don't know what Kareem would've looked like with quality players around him as a rookie.

Personally, I find it difficult to say the Smithiak assessment was wrong in light of the Frank Bush defense he was working in.
How the players around Kareem execute has nothing to do with the flaws that Kareem exhibited. So that really would have little to do with the conversation you guys are having. Other players did not make it difficult for Kareem to turn around and find the ball. Other player did not effect his ability to open his hips better nor his ability to open up to the receiver when running with them.

These are basic cornerback techniques that Kareem did not exhibit as well as he does now. That's development from possibly coaching and just working on technique from field study and practice. It has nothing to do with others around him other than they may have assisted in coaching him up. There is a reason it is stated that corners are on an island.
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Old 02-19-2013   #34
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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If being on a team with two quality cbs should not be held against Wilson, then being on a team without a quality DB & LBs that struggle in coverage should not be held against Kareem.

We see Kareem now, without the suspect play around him & he appears to be a quality player. We really don't know what Kareem would've looked like with quality players around him as a rookie.

Personally, I find it difficult to say the Smithiak assessment was wrong in light of the Frank Bush defense he was working in.
While I will concede that surrounding players can effect anothers play at time that was hardly the sole issue w/ Kareem's pathetic rookie season & suggesting that is just foolish. Kareem was burned quite often by his own doing. Either being tossed to the side in press, biting on double moves & getting left behind, or just plain falling down in coverage all contributed to Kareem's failures as a rookie & that's on him. Some could easily argue that Kareem was so pathetic in coverage that the pass rush didn't have enough time to be effective. If you can argue that others were at fault for Kareem's rookie failures w/ a straight face then I question your judgement & vision to be honest.

Frank Bush did produce middle of the road defenses prior to the 2010 collapse, so laying Kareem's failures on him are a bit of reach as well,imo, when you consider Bush did produce an average defense when he had Duanta & another rookie cb starting for him by the name of Glover Quin. Quin did well as rookie under Bush w/ basically the same talent on the defense which proves to me that if Quin could be successful then the NFL ready Kareem could've at least been able to show some potential...which he did not.

Comparing not getting on the field & thus not being allowed to compete(Wilson) vs getting on the field & getting destoryed (Jackson) is hardly an accurate comparison to judge who the better player is imo. I would think that could go w/out saying.
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Old 02-19-2013   #35
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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Originally Posted by Texan_Bill View Post
I absolutely agree that the ST's have regressed. That said, it would be disingenuous to suggest the Texans haven't had good special teams under Marciano, nor other teams that he's worked for.

Would you be open to the idea that personnel that he has to work with plays a part in the ST's performance?

Hey, if a change needs to be made for the sake of change, I'm okay with that. To lay it at the feet of one man is misguided at best because there are so many other moving parts, which many posters are reluctant to admit.
Would you agree that overall the Texans personnel has improved as a whole? If so, wouldn't that lead us to believe that the nonstarters talent level on the team has increased & those are the players being utilized on the ST's so the production should be improving, not regressing? Have we not also seen a pair of our returners leave for other teams this season & have success that seemed hard to come by here? With improved personnel & an obvious improvement in former players play elsewhere that can really only lead to one issue for regressing ST's imo & that's poor coaching.

It's not change for the sake of change when you are one of the worst in the NFL at that aspect of the game. It's change for the sake of improving the team & to strengthen an area of known weakness. There are many moving parts, but assuming that the coaching is always adequate & never at fault seems a bit misguided to me. Coaches have been fired & performances have improved due to it on plenty of occasions. Hardly a new concept.
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Old 02-19-2013   #36
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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How the players around Kareem execute has nothing to do with the flaws that Kareem exhibited.
All rookies are going to display flaws when coming to the NFL. Whether his name is Joe Haden, Patrick Patterson, Kyle Wilson, or Kareem Jackson.

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Other players did not make it difficult for Kareem to turn around and find the ball. Other player did not effect his ability to open his hips better nor his ability to open up to the receiver when running with them.
First of all, the "didn't turn his head around" is overplayed by guys who don't know what they are looking at. It's called pass interference. If you don't touch the guy, it's not interference no matter where your head is. You won't find a coach that won't teach a DB how to play a receiver face to face.

There is a time to look for the ball & there is a time to play the receiver. There is also a time when the player should play the ball but if that time has passed, he should play the reciever. Rookies find themselves in the latter situation way too often, but as long as they don't touch the receiver, it's all good. The ref may call it, but in the film room the coach is going to say, "You should have turned there, but you didn't. You recovered fine, don't worry about the ref."

Then as far as turning his hips..... you either got it or you don't. You're not going to take a guy who doesn't have it & teach it to him in three years. Learning how fast an NFL receiver will get on top of you, learning how fast an NFL receiver will blow right past you, learning how strong an NFL receiver is, learning how fast and strong an NFL receivers hands are, even the most NFL ready corner is going to have a learning curve here, regardless what his name is.

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These are basic cornerback techniques that Kareem did not exhibit as well as he does now. That's development from possibly coaching and just working on technique from field study and practice.
Do you not think Joe Haden, Kyle Wilson, and Patrick Peterson are better at those basic cornerback techniques now than they were when they were rookies? Do you think Glover Quin & Devin McCourty might not have that ability & maybe that's why they're playing safety now & not corner?

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It has nothing to do with others around him other than they may have assisted in coaching him up. There is a reason it is stated that corners are on an island.
If I've got Derrell Revis on one side of the field, then I've got help on my side of the field, I'm not on an Island as much as Kareem was. I'm able to face the QB longer & jump routes, and gamble. My mistakes won't look so bad, because someone is going to stop Roy Williams from running 70 yards to the endzone.

If you watched Kareem play as a rookie, you could see he had speed, he had cover skills, he was physical at the line, & he was a sure tackler. He made some rookie mistakes, he got beat by some veteran receivers (& some not so veteran receivers). But if you only focused on the bad plays & did not pay attention to the good plays (& there were a lot more good plays), then yeah I can understand thinking he was the worst CB in the league.

But to believe he went from the worst CB in the league to one of the best in 3 seasons... yeah, that was all coaching. I understand if you don't think he's one of the best, but he is.

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Old 02-19-2013   #37
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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If you watched Kareem play as a rookie, you could see he had speed, he had cover skills, he was physical at the line, & he was a sure tackler. He made some rookie mistakes, he got beat by some veteran receivers (& some not so veteran receivers). But if you only focused on the bad plays & did not pay attention to the good plays (& there were a lot more good plays), then yeah I can understand thinking he was the worst CB in the league.

KJ has developed into a fine CB. But during his rookie year, he was NOT a sure tackler. His tackling then was deplorable.
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Old 02-19-2013   #38
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
KJ has developed into a fine CB. But during his rookie year, he was NOT a sure tackler. His tackling then was deplorable.
I remember reading that in the BRB you posted recently, I just don't remember that. When I read it, I had to double take, because it was opposite of what I remembered.
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Old 02-19-2013   #39
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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Would you agree that overall the Texans personnel has improved as a whole? .
YES........... and NO!!

While the overall starting talent has improved, much of the depth has decipated.

Shyte happens with good teams. Other teams "cherry pick" certain players.

Nature of the beast, "if you will"..
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Old 02-19-2013   #40
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Default Re: Vance Joseph on DBs

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
All rookies are going to display flaws when coming to the NFL. Whether his name is Joe Haden, Patrick Patterson, Kyle Wilson, or Kareem Jackson.


First of all, the "didn't turn his head around" is overplayed by guys who don't know what they are looking at. It's called pass interference. If you don't touch the guy, it's not interference no matter where your head is. You won't find a coach that won't teach a DB how to play a receiver face to face.

There is a time to look for the ball & there is a time to play the receiver. There is also a time when the player should play the ball but if that time has passed, he should play the reciever. Rookies find themselves in the latter situation way too often, but as long as they don't touch the receiver, it's all good. The ref may call it, but in the film room the coach is going to say, "You should have turned there, but you didn't. You recovered fine, don't worry about the ref."

Then as far as turning his hips..... you either got it or you don't. You're not going to take a guy who doesn't have it & teach it to him in three years. Learning how fast an NFL receiver will get on top of you, learning how fast an NFL receiver will blow right past you, learning how strong an NFL receiver is, learning how fast and strong an NFL receivers hands are, even the most NFL ready corner is going to have a learning curve here, regardless what his name is.



Do you not think Joe Haden, Kyle Wilson, and Patrick Peterson are better at those basic cornerback techniques now than they were when they were rookies? Do you think Glover Quin & Devin McCourty might not have that ability & maybe that's why they're playing safety now & not corner?



If I've got Derrell Revis on one side of the field, then I've got help on my side of the field, I'm not on an Island as much as Kareem was. I'm able to face the QB longer & jump routes, and gamble. My mistakes won't look so bad, because someone is going to stop Roy Williams from running 70 yards to the endzone.

If you watched Kareem play as a rookie, you could see he had speed, he had cover skills, he was physical at the line, & he was a sure tackler. He made some rookie mistakes, he got beat by some veteran receivers (& some not so veteran receivers). But if you only focused on the bad plays & did not pay attention to the good plays (& there were a lot more good plays), then yeah I can understand thinking he was the worst CB in the league.

But to believe he went from the worst CB in the league to one of the best in 3 seasons... yeah, that was all coaching. I understand if you don't think he's one of the best, but he is.

One of the best...wow. Your judgement is a bit skewed w/out a doubt. You don't dub a player "one of the best" based on one season. Plain & simple.

Kareem was horrid in every aspect as a rookie. Manhandled in press coverage(which is ironic that you mentioned Roy Williams because he literally tossed KJ to the side as he caught & ran for a TD), very poor awareness & recognition(biting on double moves & not looking for the ball), poor technique & foot work(often slipping to the ground), poor tackling, & the aspect that can't be taken away was his speed but it was often deemed a nonfactor as his other flaws often left him in positions where he could not recover w/ his speed. There were slim to no bright spots & maybe you should reference back to those games because it seems your memory is failing you in the worse way. I understand being a fan of a player, but to divert blame & disregard a players former faults that have already been acknowledged by many seems just foolish to me. KJ never displayed the potential that Revis, Peterson, or Haden did as rookies & comparing him to such players once again shows an act of foolishness imo. Peterson & Haden played on bad teams, & still do, so please don't try the excuse about surrounding talent because it simply does not hold water.

KJ' s 2nd season showed a small improvement, but he was still amongst the worst at the position. With that being said he did show noticeable improvement in year 3 but hardly enough to deem him 1 of the best. He was not an All Pro nor was he a Pro Bowler. He simply got better w/ still more room to improve. Let's hope it continues, but let's please not be foolish enough to believe we can simply deny, erase, or rewrite his history because you don't like it. That's not how it works & he seems to have finally learned from his past failures.
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