Texans #2 WR position

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by badboy

Go to link posted http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/kevin-walter/


and look lower left hand margin and it states his roster bonus of $5m being paid and 2012 salary reduction. This is what Lucky & I are discussing. I thought if a player got an upfront roster bonus it could not be prorated. As his seems to be prorated, it must work as does a regular signing bonus. Not sure why Texans differentiated it as roster rather than signing.

Ok. I see it. Appreciate the info from you & 76, but I still say its time to move on. Take the money & run imo.

[bobbeaux]

not sure about walter leaving, but i definitely think he's getting paid too much, imo.

a fa being left out of the discussion is dominic hixon . . . i like him and his production a lot better than barden . . . he starts when nicks is out of the lineup . . . he's had some injury issues, but he has good size/speed and has return game experience . . . i'd be surprised if he gets out of our price range . . .

as far as the draft, i'm still leaning ilb, wr, nt, s and that's by our picks, not by rounds . . . if the quality at ilb isn't there at our #1, but safety is i'd go s, wr, ilb, nt . . . i believe there will be quality nt's to rotate in with campbell in the 3rd . . .

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by bobbeaux

not sure about walter leaving, but i definitely think he's getting paid too much, imo.

a fa being left out of the discussion is dominic hixon . . . i like him and his production a lot better than barden . . . he starts when nicks is out of the lineup . . . he's had some injury issues, but he has good size/speed and has return game experience . . . i'd be surprised if he gets out of our price range . . .

as far as the draft, i'm still leaning ilb, wr, nt, s and that's by our picks, not by rounds . . . if the quality at ilb isn't there at our #1, but safety is i'd go s, wr, ilb, nt . . . i believe there will be quality nt's to rotate in with campbell in the 3rd . . .

My understanding is the Giants are going to try & keep Hixon. He has a little bit of an injury history, but he does seem to have some potential. I still Luke Barden's upside because of his size & speed.

I would throw OLB in your mix of wants/needs depending on which position they decide to play Reed at. I'm truly hoping Quin is re-signed so that S doesn't become a pressing need next season. I kinda like Pleasant & would like to see what he is capable of over Demps & Keo.

[Insideop]

Originally Posted by bobbeaux

not sure about walter leaving, but i definitely think he's getting paid too much, imo.

a fa being left out of the discussion is dominic hixon . . . i like him and his production a lot better than barden . . . he starts when nicks is out of the lineup . . . he's had some injury issues, but he has good size/speed and has return game experience . . . i'd be surprised if he gets out of our price range . . .

as far as the draft, i'm still leaning ilb, wr, nt, s and that's by our picks, not by rounds . . . if the quality at ilb isn't there at our #1, but safety is i'd go s, wr, ilb, nt . . . i believe there will be quality nt's to rotate in with campbell in the 3rd . . .

I have a hunch that if Keenan Allen is still on the board at #27 the Texans will take him. If he's not there I think they go either ILB or OLB, depending on the Barwin situation.

[bobbeaux]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

My understanding is the Giants are going to try & keep Hixon. He has a little bit of an injury history, but he does seem to have some potential. I still Luke Barden's upside because of his size & speed.

I would throw OLB in your mix of wants/needs depending on which position they decide to play Reed at. I'm truly hoping Quin is re-signed so that S doesn't become a pressing need next season. I kinda like Pleasant & would like to see what he is capable of over Demps & Keo.

i want quin back too, but at our price and we need depth there anyway . . . quin could possibly go back to cb too . . . a lot rides on what we do in fa especially with our own as to what we should do in the draft . . . but, i wouldn't use our 1st rounder on a wr in this draft as i don't believe we would get any greater value than we could get with our 2nd . . . i could be wrong and someone drop, but i doubt it and still feel we'd be better off waiting . . . even with cushing back, i feel ilb is our greatest need and there are some solid ones to be had . . . if the top 3 are gone, there are some very solid safeties available as well . . . if we don't keep barwin, that should give us room for his replacement in fa too . . .

[BullBlitz]

Originally Posted by leebigeztx

Why are people so afraid of a rookie wr? I mean torrey smith has been making big plays since he's come into the league. He may only catch 50 balls or so, but they eat up a lot of real estate. There will be a wr in the first staring them in the face they should take. They can help themselves by also upgrading the te position since schaub like to throw to that guy a lot. Daniels kills the offense as much as not having a #2 cuz he can't get verticle against lbs any,ore.

We are only afraid of rookie WRs that we draft. We haven't drafted one that has had an impact in 10 YEARS.

[ArlingtonTexan]

Originally Posted by BullBlitz

We are only afraid of rookie WRs that we draft. We haven't drafted one that has had an impact in 10 YEARS.

Specifically for rookies that's not Texans thing but an NFL thing, this year there were only four with 50 or more catches (interesting that three were in the AFC south). Even if drafting the right one, few come and impactful. just takes a couple of years in most cases.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/pl...ort/receptions

link in case i miss counted

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan

Specifically for rookies that's not Texans thing but an NFL thing, this year there were only four with 50 or more catches (interesting that three were in the AFC south). Even if drafting the right one, few come and impactful. just takes a couple of years in most cases.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/pl...ort/receptions

link in case i miss counted

I realize 50 receptions may not seem like a lot to some, but to me that is more then Walter contributed & thus would be quite an impact for the Texans. Especially if you take into account the yards & TD's that were accumulated w/ those receptions for some of those rookies.

My definition of "impact" is any player who can surpass Walter's production in year 1, which shouldn't be that difficult considering the following rookie wr's were all capable of doing that & have upside & potential to only get better: K. Wright, J. Blackmon, TY Hilton, Josh Gordon, Chris Givens, Michael Floyd, & one TE in Dwayne Allen all outperformed Walter. Some could easily throw Rod Streater in there as well, despite having 2 less receptions then Walter he still surpassed him in yards & TD's. Once all the names are considered you then have to figure in the fact that ALL of them surpassed Walter's production as #2 & most of them as #3 WR's.

For what we need...I think a rookie could & would do fine if given the opportunity because its obvious that our current #2 wr has not set any unattainable standards. Multiple rookies outperformed him this year & some did it while playing in lesser roles as #3 WR's for their offenses. We just need improvement, as far as production, w/ potential for the future as opposed to taking the NFL by storm year 1 imo.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

I realize 50 receptions may not seem like a lot to some, but to me that is more then Walter contributed & thus would be quite an impact for the Texans. Especially if you take into account the yards & TD's that were accumulated w/ those receptions for some of those rookies.

My definition of "impact" is any player who can surpass Walter's production in year 1...

With the way our offense runs, he'd have to be a really special guy for Schaub to even target him as much as he targets Walter. We've got several options, where many other teams who grab these 1st round WRs don't.

With that in mind, I don't care if he matches or surpasses Walter's production in yards or catches. I'd be happy with 20 to 30 catches with a 14+ yard average. The biggest difference between Torrey Smith & Kevin Walter is that Smith has 14+ yard catches (like a WR) where Walter has numbers that are more like a catching TEs. IMO, Harvin has numbers similar to Walter's, but Harvin is a threat with the ball in his hands where Walter is not.

[BullBlitz]

Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan

Specifically for rookies that's not Texans thing but an NFL thing, this year there were only four with 50 or more catches (interesting that three were in the AFC south). Even if drafting the right one, few come and impactful. just takes a couple of years in most cases.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/pl...ort/receptions

link in case i miss counted

Yes, I agree. There are relatively few instances in which it pays to use a very high draft pick on a WR. I prefer the strategy of bringing in guys who have shown that they can play in the league.

As such, I would consider signing Harvin this year.

[ArlingtonTexan]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

I realize 50 receptions may not seem like a lot to some, but to me that is more then Walter contributed & thus would be quite an impact for the Texans. Especially if you take into account the yards & TD's that were accumulated w/ those receptions for some of those rookies.

My definition of "impact" is any player who can surpass Walter's production in year 1, which shouldn't be that difficult considering the following rookie wr's were all capable of doing that & have upside & potential to only get better: K. Wright, J. Blackmon, TY Hilton, Josh Gordon, Chris Givens, Michael Floyd, & one TE in Dwayne Allen all outperformed Walter. Some could easily throw Rod Streater in there as well, despite having 2 less receptions then Walter he still surpassed him in yards & TD's. Once all the names are considered you then have to figure in the fact that ALL of them surpassed Walter's production as #2 & most of them as #3 WR's.

For what we need...I think a rookie could & would do fine if given the opportunity because its obvious that our current #2 wr has not set any unattainable standards. Multiple rookies outperformed him this year & some did it while playing in lesser roles as #3 WR's for their offenses. We just need improvement, as far as production, w/ potential for the future as opposed to taking the NFL by storm year 1 imo.

I would like to think impact is more than be better than Kevin walter. as a pass catcher nearly anyone who gets the number of snaps as Kevin has can drop 40 catch and 500 yards. as you pointed out several rookies who were technically WR3s matched that 'prodcution. the texans need players who can cut into Andre's production because they offer something that makes the defense accountable to them.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan

I would like to think impact is more than be better than Kevin walter. as a pass catcher nearly anyone who gets the number of snaps as Kevin has can drop 40 catch and 500 yards. as you pointed out several rookies who were technically WR3s matched that 'prodcution. the texans need players who can cut into Andre's production because they offer something that makes the defense accountable to them.

I kinda of relate this to the "baby steps" approach that Kubiak & his FO choose to utilize to show progress of any kind. We all have heard how Kubiak thinks Walter is an asset to the offense & considering he has refused to replace him or address the position adequately we can only assume any player that can produce MORE then Walter would most definitely have an impact on the Texans offense imo. I realize the bar isn't set high & "impact" is normally used for greater accomplishments, but this is the Texans led by kubiak. Small steps are glorified in Houston & 60+ receptions w/ 600+ yards would be great in year 1 IF that player shows promise to only get better. Getting Andre's eventual replacement is key, but as you mentioned we won't know that about a player until probably year 2 or 3. Until then we would need them to step in yr 1 & only produce better then Walter has, which shouldn't be difficult, & that would make an "impact" on the Texans imo.

As far as Harvin, the Texans can't afford him nor have they shown the willingness to deal w/ players whom others have deemed headaches. Can't see it happening & I'm not sure if I would want it to considering Harvin's past run ins w/ his organization & his injuries. There are options w/ less baggage imo.

[CloakNNNdagger]

Not only does it take most rookie WRs (exception with some very high 1st round picks) a couple of years to truly develop, but Kubiak expects his WRs to be able to block to a decent extent, something that doesn't seem to be in many WRs' repertoires especially coming right out of college..........that's what's kept Walter here so long.......and may just very well keep him here for another season.

[BullBlitz]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

As far as Harvin, the Texans can't afford him nor have they shown the willingness to deal w/ players whom others have deemed headaches. Can't see it happening & I'm not sure if I would want it to considering Harvin's past run ins w/ his organization & his injuries. There are options w/ less baggage imo.

....can't afford...willingness to deal with players....baggage....

Yes, same story year after year. The reason they can never afford anything is because they don't spend their money wisely.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

I kinda of relate this to the "baby steps" approach that Kubiak & his FO choose to utilize to show progress of any kind. We all have heard how Kubiak thinks Walter is an asset to the offense & considering he has refused to replace him or address the position adequately

You only get so many first round draft picks, and so many FA dollars. Kubiak definitely spent those resources to improve the defense. Seeing how the defense has ranked in the lower third of the league for the most part & the offense has been consistently in the upper third, it kinda makes sense.

In other words, I don't think they "refused" or "failed" to address the position "adequately"

Had you said they've done a piss poor job at developing WR talent, I'd agree with you 100%. Kubiak, Dennison, & Larry Kirksey (our WR coach) have done a bad job identifying talented players with high football character in the later rounds or in Free Agency.

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger

Not only does it take most rookie WRs (exception with some very high 1st round picks) a couple of years to truly develop, but Kubiak expects his WRs to be able to block to a decent extent, something that doesn't seem to be in many WRs' repertoires especially coming right out of college..........that's what's kept Walter here so long.......and may just very well keep him here for another season.

That has to be the most overblown exaggeration of any one ability to justify Walter. I have yet to see ANY of the Texans WR's criticised by anyone for being just piss poor blockers. It's never been noticeable by watching the game, which I normally do w/ most at least twice, nor has it ever been emphasized by any Texan coach or member of the media on how all the other wr's are just so lacking in the blocking dept that none can compare to Walter's out of this world blocking. Needless to say, Walter may be a good blocker but he doesn't outshine the others to a noticeable degree imo. As I said earlier, its an exaggeration to justify one unproductive player who doesn't deserve to be a starter. If blocking is a wr's best asset, that is a problem regardless of someone tries to.spin it. I am just glad McNair is FINALLY making it known that he believes a playmaker is needed, not just a blocker.

Too bad the HC is once again needing to be guided by the owner on what is needed to improve this team, but that's for another thread.

[bobbeaux]

Originally Posted by Insideop

I have a hunch that if Keenan Allen is still on the board at #27 the Texans will take him. If he's not there I think they go either ILB or OLB, depending on the Barwin situation.

i'd rather they target a robert woods - usc, justin hunter - tenn or terrance williams - baylor in the 2nd . . .

[tru80texan]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

You only get so many first round draft picks, and so many FA dollars. Kubiak definitely spent those resources to improve the defense. Seeing how the defense has ranked in the lower third of the league for the most part & the offense has been consistently in the upper third, it kinda makes sense.

In other words, I don't think they "refused" or "failed" to address the position "adequately"

Had you said they've done a piss poor job at developing WR talent, I'd agree with you 100%. Kubiak, Dennison, & Larry Kirksey (our WR coach) have done a bad job identifying talented players with high football character in the later rounds or in Free Agency.

I think BullBlitz answered your dilemma best in the post of above yours. Money not spent wisely. Re-signing Walter & Jacoby would be great indicators of that for starters.

You say the money has been spent to rebuild the defense, but then you have to take into account that Reed, Barwin, Cushing, Watt, Kareem, & Quin were all playing under rookie contracts & starters. Rookie contracts are hardly the most expensive & considering more then half of the starting defense was or is playing under rookie contracts you would think there should be money to spare. That should be a lot of savings but as we all know the Texans have had salary cap issues & still do to some degree. So money not being spent wisely could very easily sum up why other positions have been neglected along the way & once again it all goes back to some degree, Smith is not in the clear on this one, to the HC who has his hands in it all.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by tru80texan

As I said earlier, its an exaggeration to justify one unproductive player who doesn't deserve to be a starter. If blocking is a wr's best asset, that is a problem regardless of someone tries to.spin it. I am just glad McNair is FINALLY making it known that he believes a playmaker is needed, not just a blocker.

Where Walter excels over the other WRs is on the edges of the OL. Like a TE who traps a DE inside, or delivers a wham block to an unsuspecting DT/LB coming up the middle.

Jacoby was a better blocker on the edge, I think, because he'd pull the DB away from the LOS, the safety would have to pay attention to him, & Jacoby would block the CB on him allowing Foster to break a 30 yard run & Foster could use him to set up the safety.

Andre sucks (at blocking, he was particularly bad against New England in the divisional round).

Walter is a flex player, imo, WR/TE. He's a better Owen Daniels, since OD can't block worth a sht... not that Walter could block a DE head up.

Originally Posted by tru80texan

Too bad the HC is once again needing to be guided by the owner on what is needed to improve this team, but that's for another thread.

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Andre sucks (at blocking, he was particularly bad against New England in the divisional round).

OK, go to the optometrist or ophthalmologist because you are blind if you think AJ sucks at blocking.