Stupor Bowl Ring Not withstanding Joe Flacco STILL aint that great

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

You're missing the point.

Flacco had played great in last year's play-offs, played great in the AFC Championship game but lost. Since he lost, nobody put much credence in how he played. Between September & January of the year after he had a great play off run, he was still considered in Schaub's tier.... not just by us.

The goof up last year wasn't even his goof up, it was Lee Evans... it was probably a bad call. Winning & losing clouds our judgement way too much, that's all I'm saying.

This year, instead of Lee Evans he had Jacoby Jones catching that ball in Denver & taking it for a touchdown that kept them alive. It was Jacoby Jones that came back caught that underthrown ball & then had the snap to get up & run. It was Jacoby Jones returning the opening kick of the second half for a TD & it was the defense that stopped the 49ers from winning the game....... but we remember how great Joe Flacco played.

So what are we going to say about Flacco next year? Between September & January when they go through what they go through & they need Flacco to carry them because the defense can't stop Brady? Or they lose 4 of their last 3? What if they don't make the play offs because they've got to play


11 tough games & Miami is going to win some games to.... Baltimore is going to pay him $20M/yr. Do you think Flacco can carry his team?

The defens gave up about 400 +/- yds a game in the playoffs. They just didn't break in the Red Zone.

And the Ravens offense score in the Red Zone. They scored from out of the Red Zone.

This team is changing the identity to an Offensive team; plus this team will look much different after FA....they're up against the cap big time. Alot of guys need to re-structure, Joe needs to get paid and then luck in the draft.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

AGAIN,..look at playoff numbers too. Not a dominant D. Not close. The Cowboys racked up a record 229 rushing yards on them this year. Not the same D and not a valid point at all.

Except in the play offs, that D made Peyton Manning & Tom Brady look like Matt Schaub.

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Except in the play offs, that D made Peyton Manning & Tom Brady look like Matt Schaub.

Between the 20, Ravens d was porous

In the Red Zone they were as stiff as 18 yr old Marine on leave.

[STEEL BLUE TEXANS]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I used Joe's great play off run of 2011 as evidence. No one was talking about Joe Flacco from September through December except to say he was so bad they fired the OC.

What great playoff run? The reason no one talked about his 2011 playoffs is because he outplayed Tom Brady on the road and crapped his pants against us the week before in Baltimore. It was the same inconsistent Joe Flacco. Nothing to talk about there. This year, however, he took his game to the next level and showed great consistency after the firing of Cam Cameron.

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by STEEL BLUE TEXANS

What great playoff run? The reason no one talked about his 2011 playoffs is because he outplayed Tom Brady on the road and crapped his pants against us the week before in Baltimore. It was the same inconsistent Joe Flacco. Nothing to talk about there. This year, however, he took his game to the next level and showed great consistency after the firing of Cam Cameron.

Under Cam Cameron, Joe was inconsistent because of Cam; its apparent after Cam's firing. Excluding the first Denver game under Caldwell (6days after Cam was fired) Joe played 6 games including playoffs and SB.


Under Caldwell avgs:

20 of 34 for 283yds 58% 2.5 TDs .16INT Passer Rating of 110.7
(118 of 202 1703yds 15TDs 1INT over 6 games)

Under Cameron avgs:
21 of 34 for 248yds 60.8% 1.38TDs .69INT Passer Rating of 89.2
(268 of 447 3220yds 18TDs 9INTs over 13 games)

And I don't care for the ELITE title; what really is elite? Gimme a definition...

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by handswarmer

And I don't care for the ELITE title; what really is elite? Gimme a definition...

Elite is whatever the guy arguing says it is, or isn't. One man says he's elite & backs it up with his reasons. Another man says he is not elite & provides his arguments.

It's the same as saying "best QBs in the league" After such a statement, you make your case. Around here, you can't use wins, & you can't use stats. The only thing that counts (since Schaub has done everything else) is wins in big games. That makes Flacco elite.

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Elite is whatever the guy arguing says it is, or isn't. One man says he's elite & backs it up with his reasons. Another man says he is not elite & provides his arguments.

It's the same as saying "best QBs in the league" After such a statement, you make your case. Around here, you can't use wins, & you can't use stats. The only thing that counts (since Schaub has done everything else) is wins in big games. That makes Flacco elite.

Totally agree- it is opinion driven. ESPN tried to eliminate all doubt wit their QBR formula: it works to a degree but when you have a person 'weighing' plays as to a degree of difficulty, like in diving or gymnastics, it becomes subjective not OBJECTIVE.

Yet even Wins are subjective; was it defense scoring, a special teams play or a Running Back's all world performance?

Again, I could care less about 'elite'....I care about Wins....Flacco is our guy...and we have another Super Bowl trophy...

[Dread-Head]

Originally Posted by handswarmer

Thts where we are different- I do not hate.

I dislike Steelers fans general but I have a few friends who root Black and Yellow.

I have total respect for the Steelers team and organization. But Jim Nance just loves to wrap his tongue around Ben's, Hines Ward and Polamalu's nutzzz....

1. Nance is a tool.

2. Hines is the reason Ed Reed still wears that festive beard. That jaw just didn't heal right did it? Sorry, part of the reason I loved watching the Steelers & Ravens was to see Hines and Ed beat the crap out of each other. The fact that Hines retired made this years match ups NOT as fun for me. Without those two going at it, it was just a football game.

3. Polamaulu is a diety who elected to walk among us mere mortals to be the position of free saftey incarnate for the ages and to utterly define the position for generations to come...come to terms with it.

For the record my 2nd oldest Nephew is a Ravens fan...and he thinks Flacco is over rated.

[Dread-Head]

Originally Posted by handswarmer

And I don't care for the ELITE title; what really is elite? Gimme a definition...

Elite: /E/leet. adj. 1. Of or pretaining to a small and exclusive group. 2. Exceptional or better than average. 3. Viewed as superlative to one's peers.


While being a starting WB in the NFL is a very tiny fraternity and being there speaks volumes about how good one is as a college QB; however, of the 32 Teams in the NFL only maybe 4 guys can call be called elite. I'm just sayin'.

[Dread-Head]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Again, the point was that someone said Dread was stuck in 2009 thinking the Ravens Defense bailed out Joe Flacco in 2012.

I simply said the defense won the 2012 Super Bowl on the goal line at the end of the game, had it gone differently, no one is talking about Joe Flacco.

I used Joe's great play off run of 2011 as evidence. No one was talking about Joe Flacco from September through December except to say he was so bad they fired the OC.

Quote me: "Flacco & the Ravens WON'T make it to the Superbowl next year. The 2013 Season will have it's ups and down and they'll make the playoffs, but this time next year we won't be talking about the Ravens' winning two in a row."

Feel free to chisel that in stone if you want. I don't think I'll be dining on crow this time next year.

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by Dread-Head

1. Nance is a tool.Agreed

2. Hines is the reason Ed Reed still wears that festive beard. That jaw just didn't heal right did it? Sorry, part of the reason I loved watching the Steelers & Ravens was to see Hines and Ed beat the crap out of each other. The fact that Hines retired made this years match ups NOT as fun for me. Without those two going at it, it was just a football game.Hines was forced to retire and while he played tough, he was a cheap shot.

3. Polamaulu is a diety who elected to walk among us mere mortals to be the position of free saftey incarnate for the ages and to utterly define the position for generations to come...come to terms with it.Lulu, as I call him, is overrated. He is OLD, SLOW and out of position frequently. If he is diety, he needs to have a last supper and go away

For the record my 2nd oldest Nephew is a Ravens fan...and he thinks Flacco is over rated. Your 2nd oldest Nephew is incorrect- who would he rather have? Tyrod Taylor? LOL

"n'uff said"

[handswarmer]

[quote=Dread-Head;2122173]Elite: /E/leet. adj. 1. Of or pretaining to a small and exclusive group. 2. Exceptional or better than average. 3. Viewed as superlative to one's peers.


While being a starting WB in the NFL is a very tiny fraternity and being there speaks volumes about how good one is as a college QB; however, of the 32 Teams in the NFL only maybe 4 guys can call be called elite. I'm just sayin'.[/QUOTE]

See? The definition said 'small and exclusive group" You limited it to four- you made it subjective. Why not 5, 8, 13 people?

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by Dread-Head

Quote me: "Flacco & the Ravens WON'T make it to the Superbowl next year. The 2013 Season will have it's ups and down and they'll make the playoffs, but this time next year we won't be talking about the Ravens' winning two in a row."

Feel free to chisel that in stone if you want. I don't think I'll be dining on crow this time next year.

WHO said anything about the 2013 Season?

I expect drastic changes on the Ravens team- look at all the Free Aents they need to sign/fit under the salary cap.

[Dread-Head]

Originally Posted by handswarmer

"n'uff said"

1. Hines wasn't a cheap shot artist. Hines was a receiver who knew how to block. Ed was a cheap shot artist who layed in hard blocks from the blind side one time too often and made a big half Korean enemy who when assigned to block elected to knock the piss out of Mr. Ed Reed as his way of saying not only can I give as good as I get, I can BEST you. He's the reason Ed simply does his JOB now rather than trying to deliver those ESPN Highlight reel hits he USED to.

2. We talking about the SAME Troy Polamalu who has been playing with a leg injury this season? How fast could YOU run if I hobbled you? (not that I'm implying that I would) The SAME Troy Polamalu whom Tom Brady says he keeps his eyes on whenever playing the Steelers as he is the conductor of that defense? Dude even a deminished Polamalu is better than Ed Reed. Both are getting into Canton on the first ballot, but Troy's had a MUCH better career. Oh or we talking about the same Troy Polamalu who got one of his homies to go to prison for a double murder which resulted from a bar fight that he ran from? Oh wait...that was Ray Lewis. My bad. Just ribbing you on that one.

3. My Nephew played DB his attitude is that defense wins titles.

[Dread-Head]

Originally Posted by handswarmer

WHO said anything about the 2013 Season?

I expect drastic changes on the Ravens team- look at all the Free Aents they need to sign/fit under the salary cap.

If Flacco gets his 20 mil a season he will sodomize the rest of the team under the cap. Also expect your offensive co-ordinator to be offered a head coaching job.

[TEXANRED]

Originally Posted by Dread-Head

I would have said "Bubby Brister 2.0" or "Flacco 1.0" but some wouldn't have known what I meant.

Bubby Brister? Really? That's an insult to Bubby Brister.

[HoustonFrog]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Except in the play offs, that D made Peyton Manning & Tom Brady look like Matt Schaub.

Wrong, look at my playoff stats again and where they were ranked in the playoffs. It's right there..they were near the bottom of the 12 teams in every category. Your theory doesn't work no matter the spin. The D made the last stop but that doesn't mean that Flacco didn't cover their tail for a majority of the playoff run. Please stop acting otherwise. You could say any defensive play in any game wins a game if you want to pick and chose but it doesn't bear out the facts of how mediocre to bad they were this year when the offense got rolling.

Total Defense-Yards:

Season 17th
Playoffs--8th out of 12

Rushing Yards:

Season 20th
Playoffs 7th out of 12


Passing Yards:

Season 17th
Playoffs 9th of 12

[Dread-Head]

[quote=handswarmer;2122180]

Originally Posted by Dread-Head

Elite: /E/leet. adj. 1. Of or pretaining to a small and exclusive group. 2. Exceptional or better than average. 3. Viewed as superlative to one's peers.


While being a starting WB in the NFL is a very tiny fraternity and being there speaks volumes about how good one is as a college QB; however, of the 32 Teams in the NFL only maybe 4 guys can call be called elite. I'm just sayin'.[/QUOTE]

See? The definition said 'small and exclusive group" You limited it to four- you made it subjective. Why not 5, 8, 13 people?

Basic math man. There are 32 teams in the NFL. All 32 of those can't be elite. 100% implies they ALL play at the same level and that's simply not true. Were that the case every game would end in a tie.

If 16 of those are elite we're saying that 50% of NFL QBs are elite which makes no sense.

8 elites out of 32 would be us saying 25% meet our definition. being in the top 25% is impressive but if there were 100 of us and you're in the top 25...but were #25...there are still 24 cats BETTER than you. That hardly makes you elite.

4 out of 32 is being very kind as it is 12.5%

If we wanted to say the top 10% (9.375 to be precise) of QBs that would be 3 guys. My point? Not every play caller in the NFL is "elite" and if EVERYONE is elite...NO ONE is.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

Wrong, look at my playoff stats again and where they were ranked in the playoffs. It's right there..they were near the bottom of the 12 teams in every category. Your theory doesn't work no matter the spin. The D made the last stop but that doesn't mean that Flacco didn't cover their tail for a majority of the playoff run.

Right now, I think Joe Flacco is the best QB in the league.

But I think Dread makes a good point. Doesn't change my mind, but it's a good point none-the-less.

The Ravens Defense is the reason Flacco was successful in his formative years. Same with Sanchez in his first two years. Flacco grew in that time, Sanchez did not.

Now, you can say the defense isn't what it used to be, because it isn't. But the bottom line is that Winning is the only thing that matters. If the Ravens lost that game, no one would be talking about Flacco & a Brinks truck...... well, they'd be talking about a much smaller Brinks truck. Similar to the deal he turned down. But since they won the Super Bowl, he can pretty much write his own check.

But the game was won with Flacco on the sideline.

The Ravens beat the Broncos & the Patriots... the defense gave up a lot of yards & a lot of points.... but Peyton Manning threw 2 interceptions & fumbled the ball twice. The Patriots didn't score more than 13 points.

You can say the defense didn't do jack & you can post stats, but just like 4000 yards, 22 TDs, 12 Ints, 90.9 QBr ratings don't mean crap to a majority of posters on this board, the stats showing how bad Baltimore's defense was in the play offs aren't telling the whole story.

Again. Joe Flacco is the best QB in the entire league.


If our defense allowed only 13 points to New England & we won the Super Bowl, would we be talking about our SB Champion QB or our bad ass Defense that stumped the 49ers on the goal line?

[Dread-Head]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Right now, I think Joe Flacco is the best QB in the league.

But I think Dread makes a good point. Doesn't change my mind, but it's a good point none-the-less.

The Ravens Defense is the reason Flacco was successful in his formative years. Same with Sanchez in his first two years. Flacco grew in that time, Sanchez did not.

Now, you can say the defense isn't what it used to be, because it isn't. But the bottom line is that Winning is the only thing that matters. If the Ravens lost that game, no one would be talking about Flacco & a Brinks truck...... well, they'd be talking about a much smaller Brinks truck. Similar to the deal he turned down. But since they won the Super Bowl, he can pretty much write his own check.

But the game was won with Flacco on the sideline.

The Ravens beat the Broncos & the Patriots... the defense gave up a lot of yards & a lot of points.... but Peyton Manning threw 2 interceptions & fumbled the ball twice. The Patriots didn't score more than 13 points.

You can say the defense didn't do jack & you can post stats, but just like 4000 yards, 22 TDs, 12 Ints, 90.9 QBr ratings don't mean crap to a majority of posters on this board, the stats showing how bad Baltimore's defense was in the play offs aren't telling the whole story.

Again. Joe Flacco is the best QB in the entire league.


If our defense allowed only 13 points to New England & we won the Super Bowl, would we be talking about our SB Champion QB or our bad ass Defense that stumped the 49ers on the goal line?

I can't argue with your logic. I still disagree, but I'd tip my hat to you (if I could get a hat over all this hair) for your well structured argument.