Addressing the ILB position

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by mussop

Anyone who thinks replacing Walter over Cody is more important isn't thinking things through.
Cody should at the very best should be a backup that only sees the field to give the starter a blow.

I think that's what he basically is. He might be out there on first downs & "listed" as a starter, but when you look at the number of snaps, he's not on the field anymore than our second ILB. Suan Cody will be the first player to come off the field.

He's very situational player, it's just that those situations usually start on first down..... technically he's a starter, but in reality Quinten Demps sees more snaps. Demps is more of a starter than Cody is.

Originally Posted by mussop

He was pushed around like he was on roller skates

Sorry, I didn't see that. He was the one most likely to hold his ground as Smith & Watt penetrated upfield.

Originally Posted by mussop

all year and that is saying something when you consider he played with the DPOY to his left and arguably a top 5 five tech in Smith to his right.

Smith is not a 5 tech. He doesn't play the 5 tech. He's an UT, a 3 tech.

Originally Posted by mussop

Cody
2010 38 tackles
2011 23 tackles
2012 17 tackles

He's on the wrong side of 30 and his numbers are trending down. So what should we expect next year, 10, 11 tackles? Are those starting DT numbers?

As far as NT's go, those numbers are probably right where they need to be. The NT usually disappears whether in a 3-4 or a 4-3. The 3 tech usually gets all the glory.

I don't know that you can grade a NT on his sacks or tackles. How many TFLs does your team have? I think that is directly associated with the NTs ability to define the A gaps. You're only going to see that watching film & seeing how he makes it possible for everyone else to do their job. This year, I think it was a down year, because Cushing got hurt & his replacements didn't attack that gap like they should. Cushing & Demeco would have feasted this year with those three up front.

Originally Posted by mussop

How can anyone think that Schaub's 3rd or really in most cases 4th option on passing downs is more important than our starting NT is beyond me.

I think everyone wants to upgrade Schaub's 2nd option. With a better #2 WR we think we can get that done.

If we can get a Gronk with #27, I'm all for it. Jimmy Graham, Vernon Davis...... Hell Yeah!!!

Originally Posted by mussop

And so I don't totally derail this good thread lets talk ILB. Cushing is coming off a season ending injury and plays with the kind of reckless abandonment that could land him right back there at any time. Other than him we literally have NO one that should be a starter at either inside position. No way in hell we wait until late in the draft for help there. We need a quality starter and depth there.

Exactly, I think Cushing instantly upgrades the position. With that in mind, I can understand if there are those who believe our need is a 4th-UDFA type of need.

[welsh texan]

I'd like Te'o as a pick, especially if we can trade down a few spots into the 2nd round and maybe move into the top 10 in the 3rd and pick up an extra late pick and still nab him.

I think the Texans have enough character to put around him that he'd be able to overcome all the **** he's been through recently and playing next door to Cush will take some of the pressure off him and allow him to play natural.

I also think concern about whether #2 ILB is a worthwhile top pick is unwarranted, the assumption that its a 2 down position in Wade's system is off imo, DeMeco Ryans was hobbled 2 years ago and needed the rest, this year the overall talent was lacking, if Wade's #2 ILB is a more capable player than his #3 S for whatever reason then I believe the scheme changes to fit the personnel.

A few little observations on our ILB situation - ILB is key in both the system and the personnel we have, Cushing frees up a lot of things for the OLB's vs. the pass, taking other responsibilities such as run contain etc off of them because he can get to the ball carrier in that situation, Barwin & Reed were beginning to look like studs with Cush there and couldn't get to the passer without him. It also covers nicely for Wade's preference for smaller penetrating DT's against runs up the middle.

We can't rely on Cush to get back to 100%, that plan brings up memories of Domanik Davis to me, and that situation left this franchise in a pickle at RB for a good 5 years, Dayne train, Green, Chris effing Brown, Slaton's one year wonder aside it took a gem UDFA to fix. By the same token we can't afford to move on from Cush either, we need to give him time to get back to as good as he's going to be before we make that kind of decision.

Maybe the coaches see Reed as an adequate option at the position, I can't help but wonder if it might be some misdirection going into the draft, depending what they do about Barwin in FA, they would need at least one, possibly 2 good OLB's in the draft. Maybe they set it up to stop teams trading ahead of us to take the likes of Te'o and then take him out of surprise, and suddenly Reed is back at OLB and they can pick up their #3 OLB in the mid-rounds.

As for all the other ILB's on the roster, Sharpton, James, Ruud, Dobbins, I'm perfectly happy to see them all back for training camp as they are all decent depth for the position, just can't be starting 2 of that group at the position, and would rather not see any of them start, although Sharpton certainly could, imo, get the job done but can't be relied upon to stay healthy.

And for all that, I still can't help but feel frustrated that all these years into this Smithiak project, when we've thrown all resources at the D, we're still considering giving drafts over to the D altogether, this team should really be in position to draft 3 first rounders in a row on O by now, but clearly we aren't.

[IDEXAN]

Taking care of our ILB needs is a relatively minor problem because it's a position
where all but 3 or 4 of the top ILB prospects in this Draft can be had with less than a third round Draft pic.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by welsh texan

And for all that, I still can't help but feel frustrated that all these years into this Smithiak project, when we've thrown all resources at the D, we're still considering giving drafts over to the D altogether, this team should really be in position to draft 3 first rounders in a row on O by now, but clearly we aren't.

Great post all around. I wanted this part repeated, because I feel it is very important in regards to the future of our team. It's not just first rounders we've been drafting, it's 4ths & 5ths & 6ths & 7ths we should not only be a talented defense, but we ought to be deep.

Not all that is on Wade, I know a lot of those picks came before him. But the point is still the same. We need to start getting some production from more than Quin & McCain from our low round draft picks or our FA acquisitions that cost less than $8M/yr.

[mussop]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I think that's what he basically is. He might be out there on first downs & "listed" as a starter, but when you look at the number of snaps, he's not on the field anymore than our second ILB. Suan Cody will be the first player to come off the field.

Where are you getting these numbers?

He's very situational player, it's just that those situations usually start on first down..... technically he's a starter, but in reality Quinten Demps sees more snaps. Demps is more of a starter than Cody is.

Again I would like to see these numbers.

Sorry, I didn't see that. He was the one most likely to hold his ground as Smith & Watt penetrated upfield.

I don't know what games you were watching.

Smith is not a 5 tech. He doesn't play the 5 tech. He's an UT, a 3 tech.

I hate this conversation. You know what I mean. And yes he arguably was a top 5 3/4 DE.

As far as NT's go, those numbers are probably right where they need to be. The NT usually disappears whether in a 3-4 or a 4-3. The 3 tech usually gets all the glory.

Here is another topic that gets tricky. Why is Cody's position considered a NT? He is 307 lbs. In Wades system the middle position on the line is more of a DT than a NT. Cody just isn't capable of performing like one so everyone wants to call him a NT. Even as a NT he is not up to par. He doesn't push the pocket back nor command double teams.

I don't know that you can grade a NT on his sacks or tackles. How many TFLs does your team have? I think that is directly associated with the NTs ability to define the A gaps. You're only going to see that watching film & seeing how he makes it possible for everyone else to do their job. This year, I think it was a down year, because Cushing got hurt & his replacements didn't attack that gap like they should. Cushing & Demeco would have feasted this year with those three up front.


I think everyone wants to upgrade Schaub's 2nd option. With a better #2 WR we think we can get that done.

I don't care who you put at #2 they aren't going to get a ton of targets with AJ, OD and Foster on the field. Especially a rookie. There is only so many balls to be thrown.

If we can get a Gronk with #27, I'm all for it. Jimmy Graham, Vernon Davis...... Hell Yeah!!!

Now if you are talking adding a top tier TE then you have an argument.

Exactly, I think Cushing instantly upgrades the position. With that in mind, I can understand if there are those who believe our need is a 4th-UDFA type of need.

I don't. We need depth and a quality starter next to Cushing.

[amazing80]

If reed moves inside, OLB becomes the bigger need, even if we keep Barwin....

NT is a big need, but Wade may prefer Mitchel compared to a rookie

i really think WR is the number 1 needed and we address it in round 1

there IMO are quite a few of solid ilbs. This draft is short on big time line backers, but there is a lot of depth, hence we can get a good one in rounds 2-4. With Cushing being the 3 down player, we can just draft a big hitting thumper which isn't a round 1 position player anyway

[b0ng]

I seriously doubt the Texans are going to spend serious bucks or draft picks on an ILB this off-season. Cushing is a stud and they have proven that they would rather not have a lot of money tied up in that spot, which precludes FA spending on the position. As far as the draft goes, there are some interesting prospects, but I imagine any top of the draft defensive pick will probably go towards a pass rusher or NT.

[silentassassin]

Originally Posted by amazing80

i really think WR is the number 1 needed and we address it in round 1

It's a possibility, but I seriously doubt this. As much as a lot of us have wanted another huge factor at receiver for a while now, we know how this organization operates.

Obviously that position is one they'll look at in the draft, but the highest they've gone on a receiver is in the third round, and I'm not sure that will change.

[deucetx]

I think that's what he basically is. He might be out there on first downs & "listed" as a starter, but when you look at the number of snaps, he's not on the field anymore than our second ILB. Suan Cody will be the first player to come off the field.

Where are you getting these numbers?

He is correct. In the nickle Wade generally goes two D-linemen which will be Smith/Watt with the LB's on the edges. Cody or Mitchell are generally off the field. Mitchell can sometimes plug Smith because he is more athletic/faster than Cody. But compared to most 3-4 teams we use the NT a bit less.

1086 total defensive snaps (reg. season). Cody played 260. He was injured part of the time (3 games I believe) but take Mitchell into account to who had only 406. So Cody basically averaged about 20 plays a game, Mitchell 25. If wondering we averaged 67.87 defensive snaps a game. Same for our sub/dime packages. NT is generally not out there. Granted if we had a beast of a NT in the Ngata mold maybe Wade would change his philosophy on his nickle or sub/dime packages. But from what we know currently, no, the NT isn't out there as much as we like to believe.

I don't care who you put at #2 they aren't going to get a ton of targets with AJ, OD and Foster on the field. Especially a rookie. There is only so many balls to be thrown.

Disagree but not going in the numbers depth on it. Got it on another thread. To think a more talented #2 wouldn't get targets when it has proven to be as such in the past in this system is just a stretch. This offense needs to evolve. Status quo won't get it done unless we are just playing for AFC South titles and not championships. Your priority chart in regards to receiving options is based on their talent/abilities. Not the system. I mean picture the convo:

'Hey guys. We got this other receiver who is faster than O.D., Arian and such but I...I just don't know. I mean come on. I know it's 3rd and 10 but I love hitting O.D. on those 7 yard patterns. Or maybe we can check down to Arian and he can run for all 10 yards like Rice did against the Chargers.'

'Coach...but that receiver is bigger than the DB, fast enough to get yards after the catch and can make plays.'

'NO! We must only throw it to our TE's and RB's first! It...it's too risky to throw to a talented receiver not named Dre. Man, I wish we had Walter right about now.'

'...Why coach? He would only get us about 5 yards.'

'Yeah but he'd look real pretty when he did it.'

***Texans punt the ball after gaining 7 yards instead of 10***

Sorry I am being silly but just think the idea we’ll not hit a more talented/capable #2 receiver because of system is just a stretch in my opinon. Plus saying Walter is Schaub's third option, well, there is a reason. He doesn't have any playmaking abilities. Would you throw it consistently to someone who doesn't generally get a lot of separation nor makes any plays after the catch? Dre, O.D. and Foster all can do something after a coach more than Walter can (if he gets open as it is) hence why they may get looked at first. Flip the script and put someone there talented Kubiak would be an idiot to not find ways to get him the ball more.

That means O.D. not carrying so much since he looked worn at the end of the year. Those injuries he had don't make his body stronger after all and he's not getting younger. And Foster getting a chance to breath. Fresher bodies help in the playoffs.

In any case, the three positions that probably need addressing most are WR, NT and ILB. Doesn't really matter what order as long as these are your first three picks unless you can grab something via free agency. I really rather a free agent WR because rookies take time to develop at that position unless very talented. NT and ILB can plug in much more quickly. Whether we have the cap room in the end though remains to be seen and knowing us we’ll wait on choosing a WR opting for a developmental type guy again. I mean we grabbed Jacoby from the amazing Lane College and then took a guy who didn’t play all year previously. We sure do seem to reach on those spots.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by deucetx

Disagree but not going in the numbers depth on it. Got it on another thread. To think a more talented #2 wouldn't get targets when it has proven to be as such in the past in this system is just a stretch. This offense needs to evolve. Status quo won't get it done unless we are just playing for AFC South titles and not championships. Your priority chart in regards to receiving options is based on their talent/abilities. Not the system. I mean picture the convo:

Even if he didn't get more targets, we need him to do more with those targets.

Torrey Smith had 49 catches. Walter had 41 catches.

Torrey Smith had 855 yards. Walter had 518 yards.

(Torey had 110 targets. Walter had 68.)

[Yesterday]

IMO, move Brooks Reed to the inside. Draft or FA a new NT (or maybe make Earl Mitchell the starter, he is much better than Cody). Our defense will be stacked.

Cody isn't starter material. Way too many games where we didn't even hear his name (and playing alongside Watt and Smith, how is that possible?).

If we get a stud NT, the defense will need to Double him often. That will free up JJ for single coverage, and we all know what that means...sack lunch.

[HOU-TEX]

Originally Posted by Yesterday

IMO, move Brooks Reed to the inside. Draft or FA a new NT (or maybe make Earl Mitchell the starter, he is much better than Cody). Our defense will be stacked.

Cody isn't starter material. Way too many games where we didn't even hear his name (and playing alongside Watt and Smith, how is that possible?).

If we get a stud NT, the defense will need to Double him often. That will free up JJ for single coverage, and we all know what that means...sack lunch.

And what happens on the outside? Our LB corps, which most of us thought was stacked at one time, is not very promising at this point. We've got Cush, who is coming off of reconstructive knee surgery and who else? I suppose Reed's ok, but what else? Barwin couldn't do diddly in a contract year even facing one on one's most of the time. Mercilus is average at rushing the QB, but can't play the run to save his life right now.

IMO, our LB corps is the weakest point of our defense and should be a high priority this offseason

[76Texan]

Who is Cameron Collins?

According to Spotrac, the Texans signed him to a 3-yr/$1,290,000 contract as a LB (with a $390,000 salary in 2012.)

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-t...meron-collins/

According to HoustonTexans.com, he was:

Signed by Houston Texans to practice squad on Oct. 11, 2012...released by Texans from practice squad on Oct. 29, 2012...signed by Texans to practice squad on Nov. 27, 2012...signed by Texans to active roster on Jan. 4, 2013.

The two sources don't seem to match.
He wasn't promoted to the 53-man roster until Jan 4, 2013.
He wasn't active for either play-off game; can he still earn that $390K ???

From what I read, Collins was converted to LB from safety by Oregon St. in his Jr. year (after starting 11 games at safety.) He started 14 games at LB during the last 2 years in college. He earned Pac-10/12 All-Academic First Team four straight years.

Collins went undrafted and was signed by the Dolphins as an UDFA. He was cut when they trimmed the roster down to 53.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Who is Cameron Collins?

According to Spotrac, the Texans signed him to a 3-yr/$1,290,000 contract as a LB (with a $390,000 salary in 2012.)

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-t...meron-collins/

According to HoustonTexans.com, he was:

Signed by Houston Texans to practice squad on Oct. 11, 2012...released by Texans from practice squad on Oct. 29, 2012...signed by Texans to practice squad on Nov. 27, 2012...signed by Texans to active roster on Jan. 4, 2013.

The two sources don't seem to match.
He wasn't promoted to the 53-man roster until Jan 4, 2013.
He wasn't active for either play-off game; can he still earn that $390K ???

From what I read, Collins was converted to LB from safety by Oregon St. in his Jr. year (after starting 11 games at safety.) He started 14 games at LB during the last 2 years in college. He earned Pac-10/12 All-Academic First Team four straight years.

Collins went undrafted and was signed by the Dolphins as an UDFA. He was cut when they trimmed the roster down to 53.

Biography: Two-year starter used at both linebacker and safety. Senior totals included 55 tackles and 4 tackles for loss after he had 39 tackles and four tackles for loss as a junior. Posted a career-best 70 tackles as a sophomore. Never recorded an interception in college. All-academic performer four straight years.

Positives: Athletic defender with an undeveloped game. Breaks down well, effectively uses his hands to protect himself and does a solid job diagnosing the action. Gets depth on pass drops, moves around the field well and fluid out to the sidelines.

Negatives: Inefficient, takes too many steps getting to plays and overpursues the action. Possesses more of a short-area burst that he cannot sustain. Marginal skills in coverage.

Analysis: Collins looks the part and showed flashes of dominance as a sophomore yet never took his game to the next level. He's a size/speed prospect who must start to transfer his athletic skills onto the football field on a full-time basis.

Projection: FA


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