Where does Matt rank with QBs in playoffs

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Another argument that is over your head. He is not defending Schaub. He has not given his opinion of Schaub at all.

He also does not say that Schaub going to the pro bowl is proof that Schaub is better.

People voted Schaub as one of the better QBs in the AFC. Not just fans, but football players & coaches (football people) as well.

You said no football person other than Kubiak think Schaub is better than Flacco, he replied that more pro bowl voters (players & coaches; ie football people) believe Schaub is the better QB.

"Schaub’s inclusion, meanwhile, is an interesting one. The Texans’ quarterback currently has fewer passing yards than Andrew Luck or Joe Flacco and fewer TD passes than Andy Dalton, Philip Rivers and even Ben Roethlisberger."- http://nfl.si.com/2012/12/26/pro-bow...or-for-debate/

[dream_team]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Another argument that is over your head. He is not defending Schaub. He has not given his opinion of Schaub at all.

He also does not say that Schaub going to the pro bowl is proof that Schaub is better.

People voted Schaub as one of the better QBs in the AFC. Not just fans, but football players & coaches (football people) as well.

You said no football person other than Kubiak think Schaub is better than Flacco, he replied that more pro bowl voters (players & coaches; ie football people) believe Schaub is the better QB.

I think by contradicting (or in my case, proving wrong) any of Texcore's comments instantly makes you a "Schaub apologist".

[Surreal McCoy]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Another argument that is over your head. He is not defending Schaub. He has not given his opinion of Schaub at all.

He also does not say that Schaub going to the pro bowl is proof that Schaub is better.

People voted Schaub as one of the better QBs in the AFC. Not just fans, but football players & coaches (football people) as well.

You said no football person other than Kubiak think Schaub is better than Flacco, he replied that more pro bowl voters (players & coaches; ie football people) believe Schaub is the better QB.

Well that's one way to end a debate. Although, in hindsight it wasn't much of a debate, really.



PS - MSR

[Texcore]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I'm not disputing that Flacco is better than Schaub.

I'm disputing Flacco's "play-off record" is poor proof of that. Flacco has a better play off record than a lot of QBs, but he isn't better than all of them.

If you're saying that Flacco is better than Schaub because of his play of record, you're saying that Flacco is better than a lot of QBs who have not had the good fortune to play on a team that consistently fielded one of the best defenses in the NFL & one of the most prolific runners.

Flacco is better than Schaub. But using his play off record as proof is faulty logic.

You are making assumptions. I'm only comparing TWO Quarterbacks, Flacco and Schaub. We are not having a generalized discussion about all QBs, because that is an entirely different discussion and my thoughts on ranking all QBs are very different. My statements are very specific to Flacco and Schaub.You can't take what I'm saying and generalize it to the rest of the QBs because I've disqualified that by only taking about comparisons.

I didn't just cite his playoff record (which is highly respectable!) as the sole reason, but its easily one of many. How many QBs in their first 5 years in the league can say they've won 8 playoff games already? In fact 5 years into his career he already has more post season playoff wins than any QB in history. Does that make him the best QB in history? God no, but its a testament to his ability this far in his young career.

Not taking a QB's playoff production into account, when he has had a good team around him like the Ravens have, would be asinine. Had Flacco amassed a 1-11 record rather than his 8-4 record, then my thoughts on him would be very different. Schaub had a really great Texan team around him, but he's been embarrassingly horrible in big prime time games against the big boys. Meanwhile, its seems the bigger the game for Flacco, the better he is. His playoff run this year (around 850 yards, 8TDs, 0INTs, wins against Luck, Manning and Brady). I mean seriously, give the guy respect.

[Texcore]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Another argument that is over your head. He is not defending Schaub. He has not given his opinion of Schaub at all.

He also does not say that Schaub going to the pro bowl is proof that Schaub is better.

People voted Schaub as one of the better QBs in the AFC. Not just fans, but football players & coaches (football people) as well.

You said no football person other than Kubiak think Schaub is better than Flacco, he replied that more pro bowl voters (players & coaches; ie football people) believe Schaub is the better QB.

So you obviously have a very high regard for the Pro-bowl process huh? Can I make that assumption...you know since you like to make assumptions yourself? Lets just go ahead and say you do. That you believe the pro-bowl is the end all for how coaches and GMs view a players worth because that is what you are seemingly defending.

Yet how many GMs/coaches would take Jeff Saturday, voted into the pro-bowl this year(largely by fair weather fans), when he got benched for his horrible play by his own coach in November. But I guess using your logic, that makes him better than Nick Mangold, who didn't make the pro-bowl...yeah 32 teams would rather have Saturday over Mangold...you know, because of the pro-bowl and all...

Another example, Gore made the pro-bowl for the NFC, while Alfred Morris didn't, who has far better stats than Gore. But yeah, if given a choice, coaches/GMs will take Gore, who is on the wrong side of 30 and clearly losing a step, over a young stud Alfred Morris.

Furthermore,A quick google search of "undeserving pro-bowler" in 2013 will yield many lists that include Schaub. Pro-bowl snub articles are also to found everywhere....So again, the pro-bowl can be a real joke. In the NFC alone, there are 6, count'em 6 Pro-bowl QBs that get the "honor", lol...

Its all about context my friend...and there is no way a competent GM/Coach will choose Schaub over Flacco, no way in hell.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Texcore

You are making assumptions. I'm only comparing TWO Quarterbacks, Flacco and Schaub. We are not having a generalized discussion about all QBs, because that is an entirely different discussion and my thoughts on ranking all QBs are very different. My statements are very specific to Flacco and Schaub.You can't take what I'm saying and generalize it to the rest of the QBs because I've disqualified that by only taking about comparisons.

If your logic only applies to Schaub & Flacco, it is flawed. It doesn't hold up in comparison to the other QBs in the league, it is flawed.

Originally Posted by Texcore

So you obviously have a very high regard for the Pro-bowl process huh? Can I make that assumption...you know since you like to make assumptions yourself? Lets just go ahead and say you do. That you believe the pro-bowl is the end all for how coaches and GMs view a players worth because that is what you are seemingly defending.

Furthermore,A quick google search of "undeserving pro-bowler" in 2013 will yield many lists that include Schaub. Pro-bowl snub articles are also to found everywhere....So again, the pro-bowl can be a real joke. In the NFC alone, there are 6, count'em 6 Pro-bowl QBs that get the "honor", lol...

Many lists & articles written by "football people"?

Are these GMs & Coaches? Scouts maybe? Or fans?

Originally Posted by Texcore

Its all about context my friend...and there is no way a competent GM/Coach will choose Schaub over Flacco, no way in hell.

Context.

Coaches vote for the probowl. As far as I can tell, the coaches believe Matt Schaub is the better QB. Truthfully it's hard to tell, unless you get a break down of the coaches vote, the players vote, & the fan vote. But since Matt Schaub is a virtual unknown (we don't get no respect in Houston) & they got the Peyton Manning & Tom Brady thing right, it isn't too far of a stretch to believe that more coaches believe Matt Schaub is a better QB than Joe Flacco.

Again, I do not agree. I'd trade Schaub for Flacco in a heartbeat. I'd ever throw in a first day draft pick & a probowl center to sweeten the deal.

But I will not argue that more coaches will take Flacco when the ProBowl is evidence to the contrary.

That doesn't mean I think probowl voting is the end all be all of player evaluation.

[panamamyers]

Sorry, not going to read this whole thread through, but is there really a Flacco/Schaub argument going on in one of the pages in here?
We may as well be asking if Reggie Wayne is better than Kevin Walter.
Flacco is light years ahead of Schaub.

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

If your logic only applies to Schaub & Flacco, it is flawed. It doesn't hold up in comparison to the other QBs in the league, it is flawed.



Many lists & articles written by "football people"?

Are these GMs & Coaches? Scouts maybe? Or fans?




Context.

Coaches vote for the probowl. As far as I can tell, the coaches believe Matt Schaub is the better QB. Truthfully it's hard to tell, unless you get a break down of the coaches vote, the players vote, & the fan vote. But since Matt Schaub is a virtual unknown (we don't get no respect in Houston) & they got the Peyton Manning & Tom Brady thing right, it isn't too far of a stretch to believe that more coaches believe Matt Schaub is a better QB than Joe Flacco.

Again, I do not agree. I'd trade Schaub for Flacco in a heartbeat. I'd ever throw in a first day draft pick & a probowl center to sweeten the deal.

But I will not argue that more coaches will take Flacco when the ProBowl is evidence to the contrary.

That doesn't mean I think probowl voting is the end all be all of player evaluation.

To even consider the Pro Bowl as a measure to ascertain who is a better player lessens credibility.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by handswarmer

To even consider the Pro Bowl as a measure to ascertain who is a better player lessens credibility.

Can we use the pro bowl to ascertain that "football people" would choose one person over another?

That's the only argument using the probowl as evidence.

Coaches & players vote for the pro bowl. Are they voting based on popularity?

[nut]

Last.

[ubecool454]

Originally Posted by nut

Last.

Haha you said it lol.

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I'm not disputing that Flacco is better than Schaub.

I'm disputing Flacco's "play-off record" is poor proof of that. Flacco has a better play off record than a lot of QBs, but he isn't better than all of them.

If you're saying that Flacco is better than Schaub because of his play of record, you're saying that Flacco is better than a lot of QBs who have not had the good fortune to play on a team that consistently fielded one of the best defenses in the NFL & one of the most prolific runners.

Flacco is better than Schaub. But using his play off record as proof is faulty logic.

Flacco has the best Playoff record fo any active QB- he's made history.

But the Pro Bowl is a measurement of what is a good QB?

Like Schaub throwing a pick in the Pro Bowl somehow makes him better than the guy getting ready to play in a Super Bowl?

WTF am I missing here?

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

Can we use the pro bowl to ascertain that "football people" would choose one person over another?

That's the only argument using the probowl as evidence.

Coaches & players vote for the pro bowl. Are they voting based on popularity?

Fans vote. Mst players and coaches say they don't have enough time to really see who is playing the best because they are busy trying to win.

Its a joke- like Alex Rodriguez was the best 3rd baseman in the AL in 2011? Gimme a break.

[deucetx]

Originally Posted by handswarmer

Fans vote. Mst players and coaches say they don't have enough time to really see who is playing the best because they are busy trying to win.

Its a joke- like Alex Rodriguez was the best 3rd baseman in the AL in 2011? Gimme a break.

They still vote. What is said is they don't get to see all the players so most of the votes from players ends up becoming a game of politics. Sometimes they will vote for players that are completely unknown to help their teammates out or they won't vote for players they dislike (i.e. Richard Sherman). Not to mention they can't vote for teammates and have to vote for opposite side of the ball only. So no not just fans. If you think Schaub is a fan favorite, well, that is a stretch. Players in our city don't often get a ton of recognition nor media attention for that to be the case. It was refreshing seeing Watt get attention this year as Cush deserved it last year but got nothing.

In any case, this whole conversation seems to be going just for arguing sake. Now you guys have went down to the sematics of things when the bottom line is you all agree Flacco is better. So what are you arguing about? How that judgement is configured? Does that really matter? If so, then by all means continue. But we really have enough Schaub threads as is and our playoff time is over. I think we have all learned Schaub has more issues than we first believed.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by deucetx

In any case, this whole conversation seems to be going just for arguing sake. Now you guys have went down to the sematics of things when the bottom line is you all agree Flacco is better. So what are you arguing about? How that judgement is configured? Does that really matter? If so, then by all means continue. But we really have enough Schaub threads as is and our playoff time is over. I think we have all learned Schaub has more issues than we first believed.

True... I don't know how many times I gotta say it.

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by deucetx

They still vote. What is said is they don't get to see all the players so most of the votes from players ends up becoming a game of politics. Sometimes they will vote for players that are completely unknown to help their teammates out or they won't vote for players they dislike (i.e. Richard Sherman). Not to mention they can't vote for teammates and have to vote for opposite side of the ball only. So no not just fans. If you think Schaub is a fan favorite, well, that is a stretch. Players in our city don't often get a ton of recognition nor media attention for that to be the case. It was refreshing seeing Watt get attention this year as Cush deserved it last year but got nothing.

In any case, this whole conversation seems to be going just for arguing sake. Now you guys have went down to the sematics of things when the bottom line is you all agree Flacco is better. So what are you arguing about? How that judgement is configured? Does that really matter? If so, then by all means continue. But we really have enough Schaub threads as is and our playoff time is over. I think we have all learned Schaub has more issues than we first believed.

I don't understand the constant barrage of "Houston players donn't get any media exposure"=> everytime I turned on NFL Net this season there was JJ Watt, Arian Foster and AJ...even Matt Schaub...Like Houston is small market?

Anyway, not everyone agrees that Flacco is better than Schaub; but I'll keep trying to convince them...

[Big Lou]

Originally Posted by handswarmer

I don't understand the constant barrage of "Houston players donn't get any media exposure"=> everytime I turned on NFL Net this season there was JJ Watt, Arian Foster and AJ...even Matt Schaub...Like Houston is small market?

Anyway, not everyone agrees that Flacco is better than Schaub; but I'll keep trying to convince them...

Sorry dude, Schaub and Flacco are both average. The only thing Flacco is elite at is ruining his mouth about how elite he is.

[bOODRO87]

Originally Posted by Big Lou

Sorry dude, Schaub and Flacco are both average. The only thing Flacco is elite at is ruining his mouth about how elite he is.

Flacco left Schaub in the dust after this year. Schaub couldn't win HFA with two games and played poorly in the post season. Flacco had 8 TDs and zero INT this post season. His team depended on him to make clutch throws and he delivered. Something us Texan fans can only dream of Schaub doing in the play offs.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by bOODRO87

Flacco left Schaub in the dust after this year. Schaub couldn't win HFA with two games and played poorly in the post season. Flacco had 8 TDs and zero INT this post season. His team depended on him to make clutch throws and he delivered. Something us Texan fans can only dream of Schaub doing in the play offs.

Flacco wasn't even in a position to win HFA throughout the play-offs.

Up until week 12, I would bet the overwhelming opinion was that Schaub was better. That's most likely why he is in the pro bowl & Flacco isn't.

Flacco, in my mind, didn't pull ahead, until that Denver game in the divisional round of the play-offs. & he backed it up with his play in the AFC Championship game.

Until those two games, most "football people" wouldn't even touch the debate because it wasn't worth discussing. Who was the better of two bad QBs? Who really cares?

[bOODRO87]

Originally Posted by Fiddler

Flacco wasn't even in a position to win HFA throughout the play-offs.

Up until week 12, I would bet the overwhelming opinion was that Schaub was better. That's most likely why he is in the pro bowl & Flacco isn't.

Flacco, in my mind, didn't pull ahead, until that Denver game in the divisional round of the play-offs. & he backed it up with his play in the AFC Championship game.

Until those two games, most "football people" wouldn't even touch the debate because it wasn't worth discussing. Who was the better of two bad QBs? Who really cares?

Just pointing out the fact that Matt had two chances to secure HFA and did not. Yes, this is a team sport, but Matt didn't help put his team in good positions to win. That's bad for ANY QB. I couldn't careless what our record was or what people thought before the post season. Playoffs is where you find out what kind of team you really have.

Flacco flourished in the big games. Schaub did not flourish in his big games.. multiple times. Big difference.