Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

[Mr teX]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro

Everything changed in 2011. These numbers are not a true compare given the disruptive force of the rookie labor pool being skewed towards the spread and speed, and the CBA. The last two years are the baseline or the new normal.

Having an offensive scheme to leverage the new market is the major issue. We do not have an innovator at HC or in the Front office, and that is why we are at our ceiling during this time of major disruption. In McNair's terms, we are having scaling issues.

Ehh, saying everything has changed is the easy way out though. Everyone said the same thing back in the early 2000's when Mcnabb, Culpepper and later Vick came on the seen. They were "changing the way the position is played.." The truth is that the only qb of those that was able to stick around and be good was the 1 that could kill you sitting back in the pocket....Mcnabb.

The truth is defenses will figure it out.. the zone read and all of this college type offense stuff i mean b/c they always have. & though the rules of the game have been slanted to the offense and qbs, the basic premise is still the same (hit the guy with the ball as hard as you can) and the emphasis on concussions favors the defense b/c getting a lick on the qb is a defensive persons dream.

& most of these young qbs can't stand up to being hit by a 250+ defensive person too many times...let alone them wanting to. So if these coaches are going to continually keep putting their qb's in harms way like that...well, you know how it goes, all it takes is 1 hit...The new crop of running qb's look promising but ultimately, they've got to show that they will be able to consistently beat you in the pocket passing the ball over their careers. Cam didn't really figure that out this year.

[Jules Winnfield]

ohh look its another great o line, great rb, great wr, great te, great defense, great coaching, great special teams + matt schaub = super bowl" thread.

dont you people see something wrong with that thinking?


what do you think is easier to achieve?

having great everything and being stuck with a mediocre qb or getting a great qb?


why is it that schaub has to have great everything before he is held accountable?

[JCTexan]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Sure (just for fun). It's not really a debate, but more of discussion. I'm more curious of those middle QBs, because there will be some we both agree on at each end of the spectrum.

This is not about who we think is better, but rather who we think would want to get rid of their current QB in favor of Schaub (based upon your statement: "I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.")

Here is where I got this list (updated week 17).

Blue for teams that I think would not want Schaub.

Red for teams that I think that would want Schaub.

AFC East:
Buffalo Bills: Ryan Fitzpatrick
Miami Dolphins: Ryan Tannehill
New England Patriots: Tom Brady
New York Jets: Mark Sanchez

AFC North:
Baltimore Ravens: Joe Flacco
Cincinnati Bengals: Andy Dalton
Cleveland Browns: Thaddeus Lewis
Pittsburgh Steelers: Ben Roethlisberger

AFC South:
Indianapolis Colts: Andrew Luck
Jacksonville Jaguars: Chad Henne
Tennessee Titans: Jake Locker

AFC West:
Denver Broncos: Peyton Manning
Kansas City Chiefs: Brady Quinn
Oakland Raiders: Terrelle Pryor
San Diego Chargers: Philip Rivers

NFC East:
Dallas Cowboys: Tony Romo
New York Giants: Eli Manning
Philadelphia Eagles: Michael Vick
Washington Redskins: Robert Griffin III

NFC North:
Chicago Bears: Jay Cutler
Detroit Lions: Matthew Stafford
Green Bay Packers: Aaron Rodgers
Minnesota Vikings: Christian Ponder

NFC South:
Atlanta Falcons: Matt Ryan
Carolina Panthers: Cam Newton
New Orleans Saints: Drew Brees
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Josh Freeman

NFC West:
Arizona Cardinals: Brian Hoyer
San Francisco 49ers: Colin Kaepernick
Seattle Seahawks: Russell Wilson
St. Louis Rams: Sam Bradford

I have 10 teams on my list that I feel would immediately pick up Schaub and "consider him an upgrade over their QB".

Your mileage may vary. I look forward to your reply.

p.s. Keep in mind this is not a debate of "who is better". For instance, the Cowboys are not getting rid of Romo, regardless if Schaub is available. So please keep that in mind.

This is a more interesting take, I guess. Would certain teams go with their young QB or would they take the veteran that has been known to play at a high (not elite) level? I know right now that I would not take Tannehill, Freeman, Ponder, Locker, etc. to QB the Texans over Schaub next year. The interesting question is would teams take their young, promising QB over Schaub?

[Texanmike02]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Sure (just for fun). It's not really a debate, but more of discussion. I'm more curious of those middle QBs, because there will be some we both agree on at each end of the spectrum.

This is not about who we think is better, but rather who we think would want to get rid of their current QB in favor of Schaub (based upon your statement: "I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.")

Here is where I got this list (updated week 17).

I thought I worded it well but I was saying that they would get better play out of Schaub than they got last year so we have got a slightly different criteria. For example, I would have said vs Miami that we get better play from Schaub today. In two or three years that may not be the case but as of right now he is a better QB. If this were 2009 I would look at younger QBs but we aren't hoping to open the championship window in 2-3 years, ours is open.

Blue for teams that I think would not want Schaub.

Red for teams that I think that would want Schaub.

AFC East:
Buffalo Bills: Ryan Fitzpatrick
Miami Dolphins: Ryan Tannehill
New England Patriots: Tom Brady
New York Jets: Mark Sanchez

AFC North:
Baltimore Ravens: Joe Flacco
Cincinnati Bengals: Andy Dalton
Cleveland Browns: Thaddeus Lewis
Pittsburgh Steelers: Ben Roethlisberger

AFC South:
Indianapolis Colts: Andrew Luck
Jacksonville Jaguars: Chad Henne
Tennessee Titans: Jake Locker

AFC West:
Denver Broncos: Peyton Manning
Kansas City Chiefs: Brady Quinn
Oakland Raiders: Terrelle Pryor
San Diego Chargers: Philip Rivers

NFC East:
Dallas Cowboys: Tony Romo
New York Giants: Eli Manning
Philadelphia Eagles: Michael Vick
Washington Redskins: Robert Griffin III

NFC North:
Chicago Bears: Jay Cutler
Detroit Lions: Matthew Stafford
Green Bay Packers: Aaron Rodgers
Minnesota Vikings: Christian Ponder

NFC South:
Atlanta Falcons: Matt Ryan
Carolina Panthers: Cam Newton
New Orleans Saints: Drew Brees
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Josh Freeman

NFC West:
Arizona Cardinals: Brian Hoyer
San Francisco 49ers: Colin Kaepernick
Seattle Seahawks: Russell Wilson
St. Louis Rams: Sam Bradford

Honestly, I should have worded it the other way but I didn't say it well. We get better play than 2/3 of the league. I'll work my list the other way around and see. I wouldn't take Freeman over Schaub for example. Stafford has MUCH better receivers than Schaub ever dreamed of having and was bad most of the year, completing <60% of his passes and only throwing 3 more TDs than INTS.

I'll think on it a little but I'm about to go home and probably won't be able to post again tonight, so maybe tomorrow.

Mike

[Texanmike02]

Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield

ohh look its another great o line, great rb, great wr, great te, great defense, great coaching, great special teams + matt schaub = super bowl" thread.

dont you people see something wrong with that thinking?


what do you think is easier to achieve?

having great everything and being stuck with a mediocre qb or getting a great qb?


why is it that schaub has to have great everything before he is held accountable?

2011
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham

2010
Greg Jennings
Donald Driver
James Jones
Jordy Nelson
Jermichael Finley


2009
Colston
Henderson
Shockey
Meachem
Lance More

2008
Hines Ward
Santonio Holmes
Heath Miller
Nate Washington

2007
Plaxico Burress
Amani Toomer
Jermey Shockey

2006
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
Dallas Clark
Brandon Stokley


You have to go back farther than that (probably NE) to find SB winning teams that DIDN'T have dominant receiving Corps. The teams that did had number 1 or 2 ranked offenses every year.

Mike

[Kaiser Toro]

Originally Posted by Mr teX

Ehh, saying everything has changed is the easy way out though. Everyone said the same thing back in the early 2000's when Mcnabb, Culpepper and later Vick came on the seen. They were "changing the way the position is played.." The truth is that the only qb of those that was able to stick around and be good was the 1 that could kill you sitting back in the pocket....Mcnabb.

The truth is defenses will figure it out.. the zone read and all of this college type offense stuff i mean b/c they always have. & though the rules of the game have been slanted to the offense and qbs, the basic premise is still the same (hit the guy with the ball as hard as you can) and the emphasis on concussions favors the defense b/c getting a lick on the qb is a defensive persons dream.

& most of these young qbs can't stand up to being hit by a 250+ defensive person too many times...let alone them wanting to. So if these coaches are going to continually keep putting their qb's in harms way like that...well, you know how it goes, all it takes is 1 hit...The new crop of running qb's look promising but ultimately, they've got to show that they will be able to consistently beat you in the pocket passing the ball over their careers. Cam didn't really figure that out this year.

It is not the easy way out, since the 2000's compare/example is not even close. This is about the college game being the innovative catalyst to the NFL. This is about the incremental results of these spread QBs in the NFL, and how coaching staffs, player personnel and scouting departments need to change their thinking. This is about a top 5 pick no longer hamstringing a franchise for years.

These young QB's are getting results and are more expendable than ever. This is the commoditization of the QB position happening before our very eyes. Those that buy into it will be successful quickly, those that don't only need to make a GM and HC change.

[ArlingtonTexan]

Originally Posted by silvrhand

But when the entire team is now pushing the coverage or the ball down the field, then you can sit on the 10-20 yard routes, and force the short 3-4 yards passes to a guy that gets no separation.

What I am saying that's a question of talent forcing schaub's decision versus the scheme or poor coaching/playcalling.

[Jules Winnfield]

Originally Posted by Texanmike02

2011
Victor Cruz
Hakeem Nicks
Mario Manningham

2010
Greg Jennings
Donald Driver
James Jones
Jordy Nelson
Jermichael Finley


2009
Colston
Henderson
Shockey
Meachem
Lance More

2008
Hines Ward
Santonio Holmes
Heath Miller
Nate Washington

2007
Plaxico Burress
Amani Toomer
Jermey Shockey

2006
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
Dallas Clark
Brandon Stokley


You have to go back farther than that (probably NE) to find SB winning teams that DIDN'T have dominant receiving Corps. The teams that did had number 1 or 2 ranked offenses every year.

Mike

Dre, Jean, Posey, Martin along with Owen Daniels, Arian Foster, and James Casey are good enough players to win a superbowl with a competent quarterback.

How many different areas of the team are you scapegoat for matt?

[Texanmike02]

Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield

Dre, Jean, Posey, Martin along with Owen Daniels, Arian Foster, and James Casey are good enough players to win a superbowl with a competent quarterback.

How many different areas of the team are you scapegoat for matt?

Dre and Daniels are proven commodities. Foster is too. Posey jean and martin? They couldn't get time in front of Walter.

Mike

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by eriadoc

I find it curious that some teams with other QBs always manage to have good #2 and #3 WRs. Do they just hit the jackpot with every guy they draft? These teams almost always have a clear #1 guy, but then they have guys in line that look good in their role.

Do you think these QBs would make Walter look like a stud?

I've got issues with Kubiak's method of getting young, new guys into the lineup. No one would have known who Victor Cruze was if we drafted him.

I know some of us would give Kubiak the benefit of the doubt & helping these players to have long productive careers (whether for us or another team)..... but damn!!

[Jules Winnfield]

Originally Posted by Texanmike02

Dre and Daniels are proven commodities. Foster is too. Posey jean and martin? They couldn't get time in front of Walter.

Mike

they couldnt get time in front of walter because kubiak wont let them.

kubiak is the type of guy who would give ted bundy multiple chances.

He's loyal to a detrimental fault.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Rey

Also, there have been plenty times where schaub has forced balls when guys have been open for better looks.

They say a QB (any position really) needs to have a short memory, forget the last play, make the next play, that kind of thing. However, I believe Schaub holds a grudge.

If you've dropped a ball or two, you may be wide open, but Schaub is going to skip you in his progression.

Remember when Andre missed the Raider game last year & Schaub targeted Jacoby 11 times & Jacoby caught none of them? I know I'm alone in this, but if you go back & see where Schaub put those balls.

A little more than the "where only your player can get it" Jacoby had to make a heck of a play to make any of those catches. Maybe he was worried that Jacoby was going to tip it to the bad guys or something, but nobody was going to catch those balls but Jacoby & even then, it was going to be an amazing catch.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro

We have players that are a perfect fit for the playbook, but the playbook does not evolve with the half, game, season or speed of the league.

Funny how two years ago our problem was that we started slow & finished strong. During the game, same for the season.

Oh how we dreamed of the day we would start strong, secure a play-off berth early so we could coast through the season, or get up big to start a game & give us some breathing room....

Those were the days.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Playoffs

Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL

I like Seth.... but, he played on defense. How do we know that Schaub isn't doing the same thing Brady is doing in less time? Before week 10, he was one of the least sacked QBs in the league. Against Cincinnati, he was clean. Only one sack vs New England.

A lot of quick passes & throw aways to be sure, but there were some decent throws in there as well.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by thunderkyss

I like Seth.... but, he played on defense. How do we know that Schaub isn't doing the same thing Brady is doing in less time?

Because we have brains and choose to use them.

[AJ-80]

Originally Posted by Texanmike02

Dre and Daniels are proven commodities. Foster is too. Posey jean and martin? They couldn't get time in front of Walter.

Mike

This is the exact reason why we desperately need to use our number one pick on a WR

[Mr teX]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro

It is not the easy way out, since the 2000's compare/example is not even close. This is about the college game being the innovative catalyst to the NFL. This is about the incremental results of these spread QBs in the NFL, and how coaching staffs, player personnel and scouting departments need to change their thinking. This is about a top 5 pick no longer hamstringing a franchise for years.

These young QB's are getting results and are more expendable than ever. This is the commoditization of the QB position happening before our very eyes. Those that buy into it will be successful quickly, those that don't only need to make a GM and HC change.

They may get results quicker, but their longevity in the nfl will be determined the same way that all qbs longevity in the nfl are determined...thru their ability to beat teams without their legs and in the passing game.

And The commodization of the qb will never happen b/c of the position's importance. Teams will always favor the big strong armed, pocket passing qb over the running qb simply b/c of the potential for longevity/ stability that their careers provide a franchise. They'll likely continue to pay more for those kinds of guys as well for the same reason.

Arm strength and intelligence passing the ball never really fades...a qb and coach whose offensive effectiveness is partially based on a qb's ability to run around and make things happen does and quite honestly can be taken away much more easily... Just ask RG3....He way less effective once his legs went out from under him. Hell, u see what slow ass matt schaub looks like after his lisc franc.

and The college game isnt influencing anything any more than it has in the past. The run and shoot came and went...the wildcat came and went....the zone read will come and go.

[HJam72]

Kubiak is loyal to hard workers that don't actually have the minimum physical skills.

By the way, Mr. Kubiak, sir, I will work real hard for just a few million a year. I have almost zero talent, but I surely will. You could put me at corner, and I will cover a few short routes successfully enough (a year). I might even make a tackle!, but I will need good insurance.

[Kaiser Toro]

Originally Posted by Mr teX

They may get results quicker, but their longevity in the nfl will be determined the same way that all qbs longevity in the nfl are determined...thru their ability to beat teams without their legs and in the passing game.

And The commodization of the qb will never happen b/c of the position's importance. Teams will always favor the big strong armed, pocket passing qb over the running qb simply b/c of the potential for longevity/ stability that their careers provide a franchise. They'll likely continue to pay more for those kinds of guys as well for the same reason.

Arm strength and intelligence passing the ball never really fades...a qb and coach whose offensive effectiveness is partially based on a qb's ability to run around and make things happen does and quite honestly can be taken away much more easily... Just ask RG3....He way less effective once his legs went out from under him. Hell, u see what slow ass matt schaub looks like after his lisc franc.

and The college game isnt influencing anything any more than it has in the past. The run and shoot came and went...the wildcat came and went....the zone read will come and go.

I strongly believe the next five years will be more in line with my forecasting. However, I would be remiss to not state that intelligence never fades as a valuable asset at the position, whether it be a dual threat or the strong arm.

[Texan_Bill]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro

We have players that are a perfect fit for the playbook, but the playbook does not evolve with the half, game, season or speed of the league.

Kubiak has us right where he wants us.

The question should be posed to Rick Smith - what is the impact to rip and replace the Kubiak system? My fear is that we have invested in a dying offense, and will continue to make roster decisions that make little impact on the overall results, but puts us in cap hell for when the change occurs.

Not sure what you imply with the bolded, but agree with the first paragraph!

As to the third paragraph, Rick Smith is very much Darryl Morrey. They've made some brilliant and well, not so brilliant decisions. I don't think the offense is dying, I think Schaub's Lisfranc fracture is everything Doc said it would be.

****************

Listen,

I believe this is a failure from Uncle Bob all the way down to the interns handing out gatorade cups on the sideline.

I think its completely disingenuos for people to use their own agendas to put this loss on Schaub, Kubiak, Phillips (oh wait, no one here would ever do that), or Marciano......

****************

Gimme a decent draft. Give me a healthy Cushing and give me a .......... (Christmas list starts here)