Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQDonate Automatic Monthly Contribution Members List Mark Forums Read


Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-15-2013   #121
76Texan
Hall of Fame
 
76Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,540
Rep Power: 83970 76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Actually it was adapted for VY several years back; maybe others too.
76Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #122
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
 
Kaiser Toro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Straight Outta Austin
Age: 44
Posts: 16,060
Rep Power: 41444 Kaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
What I've read (before and now) was that Elway was quoted directly (but I have to paraphrase) as saying that he felt like dying and going to heaven with Shanahan's retooling the WCO in Denver.

Kubiak was the QB in SF that Shanahan brought along to Denver, and being the studious type (that Elway credited him to be), was obviously the one who explained all the little details from the QB's perspective to Elway.

I don't know how much credit Kubiak should get for that, but the results showed that Elway had the most consistent period of his life from then on.
Kubiak was Elway's back up his entire career. To attempt to illustrate a professorial Kubiak learning the n00b student Elway is odd.
__________________
Smell the glove is here
Kaiser Toro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #123
infantrycak
Lead Moderator
 
infantrycak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 47,355
Rep Power: 356973 infantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
I would expect free agents and draft picks to work in different silos. I would also expect to have an accomplished OC/QB coach have most of the input in the free agent recommendation.
I am not sure why a position coach or OC would have more or less say on free agents or the draft.

There are just too many variables. Maybe Shanahan wanted a vet free agent and Kubiak wanted to draft a particular QB but then looked at the available FA pool and recommended Griese. We don't even know the available FA pool. Heck Jake Plummer and Matt Schaub are nothing alike as QBs so it doesn't make sense to me to put them together and say Kubiak is looking for one particular kind of QB if he is the decision maker. As a matter of fact Plummer was available when they went after Schaub.

All I am saying is there are a lot of assumptions being made and then some pretty radical extrapolations made from there. The only one we know for sure is Schaub.
__________________
The Art of War
infantrycak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #124
76Texan
Hall of Fame
 
76Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,540
Rep Power: 83970 76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
Kubiak was Elway's back up his entire career. To attempt to illustrate a professorial Kubiak learning the n00b student Elway is odd.
Not really. They are still good friends.
One guy can have the physical ability and the other can have the mindset of a coach; it's pretty normal actually.
76Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #125
Premier
All Pro
 
Premier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 943
Rep Power: 10262 Premier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respectedPremier is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
Are you saying that he doesn't?

After AJ there is......


Martin?
Jean?
Walter?


I don't really care how much you hate the current QB. Any QB on this team would need new weapons. These WR's are terrible, and that wasn't hard to see at all before the season, unless you were one of the people that automatically entrenched Martin and Jean as valid play makers because of what they did in the pre season. Nothing inaccurate at all by saying Schaub needs more weapons. That is as plain as day.
i remember phil simms salivating at all the weapons at matt schaubs disposal, playing in a qb friendly system.. after AJ, The TEs get a bulk of the work done, even arian is a reliable option in the pass game. you know the scheme is designed to get guys open through PA.. who were schaubs weapons during thw year he lead th eleague in passing? andre, daniels, dreesen, walter, jacoby, minus a run game.. so ummm idk about all this he needs more weapons nonsense.. what qb couldnt use 2 legit receivers and a sure hands TE... some qbs can make average wideouts looks like stars..
__________________
Premier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #126
76Texan
Hall of Fame
 
76Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,540
Rep Power: 83970 76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Kubiak went on to coaching when Elway remained playing.

The "new" lnowledge he learned from a new system is not available to the player (Elway) who played in a different system.
76Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #127
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
 
Kaiser Toro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Straight Outta Austin
Age: 44
Posts: 16,060
Rep Power: 41444 Kaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I am not sure why a position coach or OC would have more or less say on free agents or the draft.

There are just too many variables. Maybe Shanahan wanted a vet free agent and Kubiak wanted to draft a particular QB but then looked at the available FA pool and recommended Griese. We don't even know the available FA pool. Heck Jake Plummer and Matt Schaub are nothing alike as QBs so it doesn't make sense to me to put them together and say Kubiak is looking for one particular kind of QB if he is the decision maker. As a matter of fact Plummer was available when they went after Schaub.

All I am saying is there are a lot of assumptions being made and then some pretty radical extrapolations made from there. The only one we know for sure is Schaub.
After seven years do you have faith in Kubiak's offense, decision making process and "ability" to change with the game? I do not.
__________________
Smell the glove is here
Kaiser Toro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #128
76Texan
Hall of Fame
 
76Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,540
Rep Power: 83970 76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Then the Broncos selected Brian Griese in the third round.
Griese was more or less a platoon player in college.
He developed quickly in Denver.
It was some nagging injuries that didn't allow him to become a better player.
I believe it played into the Broncos decision not to retain him long-term.
76Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #129
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
 
Kaiser Toro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Straight Outta Austin
Age: 44
Posts: 16,060
Rep Power: 41444 Kaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Not really. They are still good friends.
One guy can have the physical ability and the other can have the mindset of a coach; it's pretty normal actually.
That and 50 cents will get you cup of "who the frig cares" as it relates to the Texans future.
__________________
Smell the glove is here
Kaiser Toro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #130
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
 
Kaiser Toro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Straight Outta Austin
Age: 44
Posts: 16,060
Rep Power: 41444 Kaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Then the Broncos selected Brian Griese in the third round.
Griese was more or less a platoon player in college.
He developed quickly in Denver.
It was some nagging injuries that didn't allow him to become a better player.
I believe it played into the Broncos decision not to retain him long-term.
Platoon at Michigan or injuries dictated him being next man up?

Griese had one playoff season during his five year tenure in Denver. He was good enough to get them there.
__________________
Smell the glove is here
Kaiser Toro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #131
76Texan
Hall of Fame
 
76Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,540
Rep Power: 83970 76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
That and 50 cents will get you cup of "who the frig cares" as it relates to the Texans future.
Obviously (to me at least) it doesn't foretell the Texans future; all this time, I was only responding to your much earlier post as to whether Kubiak is a guy who can develop or help QBs, that's all.

My responses were only limited to that and nothing more.
76Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #132
76Texan
Hall of Fame
 
76Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,540
Rep Power: 83970 76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
Platoon at Michigan or injuries dictated him being next man up?

Griese had one playoff season during his five year tenure in Denver. He was good enough to get them there.
I'm not sure I understand everything you want to say; can you elaborate?
76Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #133
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
 
Kaiser Toro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Straight Outta Austin
Age: 44
Posts: 16,060
Rep Power: 41444 Kaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I was only responding to your much earlier post as to whether Kubiak is a guy who can develop or help QBs, that's all.
It is an awe inspiring list, and successes.
__________________
Smell the glove is here
Kaiser Toro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #134
infantrycak
Lead Moderator
 
infantrycak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 47,355
Rep Power: 356973 infantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
After seven years do you have faith in Kubiak's offense, decision making process and "ability" to change with the game? I do not.
I am undecided. Some games, for instance Denver, I thought he came out with a great aggressive game plan and it worked well. Other games not so much. I think at times his system works brilliantly and gets people wide open. Other games they either don't use the plays or don't execute them as well.

I just commented because I think people get over the top in their comments. I agreed with most of eriadoc's post and only took issue with one comment I thought went too far. It's like Premier's revisionist comment above about needing more weapons being nonsense. Every single off-season there have been tons of people clamoring to upgrade WR#2 and #3. Now it is "nonsense" to say the same thing.
__________________
The Art of War
infantrycak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #135
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 34,989
Rep Power: 264424 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
After seven years do you have faith in Kubiak's offense, decision making process and "ability" to change with the game? I do not.
He just went 12-4 with the worst QB in the league & a defense that gives up 40+ points. He's won his division 2 years in a row & won 1 play off game with said QB & another play off game with the worst back-up in the league. A guy you wouldn't even have on your team.

He's got to be the worst talent evaluator in the league, but he's got to be the best coach. Sorry QB, sorry OL, sorry WRs, porous defense, sh1t for special teams.

That's one hell of a coach & one hell of a system.
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #136
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
 
Kaiser Toro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Straight Outta Austin
Age: 44
Posts: 16,060
Rep Power: 41444 Kaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
He just went 12-4 with the worst QB in the league & a defense that gives up 40+ points. He's won his division 2 years in a row & won 1 play off game with said QB & another play off game with the worst back-up in the league. A guy you wouldn't even have on your team.

He's got to be the worst talent evaluator in the league, but he's got to be the best coach. Sorry QB, sorry OL, sorry WRs, porous defense, sh1t for special teams.

That's one hell of a coach & one hell of a system.
Fiddling around with semantics is fun. But I recommend you get rid of the fiddle and upgrade to a stradivarius.
__________________
Smell the glove is here
Kaiser Toro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #137
76Texan
Hall of Fame
 
76Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,540
Rep Power: 83970 76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
It is an awe inspiring list, and successes.
If you google it you will find stories about how Griese tripped on his dog, or on a faulty driveway that cause injury to his ankle, whatever.

More likely it was due to being drunk.

The fact remains that he had nagging injuries that prevented him from become better.

For a platoon player in college to a pro-bowl, I would think it wasn't bad at all.
76Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #138
76Texan
Hall of Fame
 
76Texan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,540
Rep Power: 83970 76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected76Texan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

On the other hand, if we're talking about adaption then I don't have an idea.

We do know, however, that the Texans had gone gaga passing before.
against the Saints or the Broncos for example, we came out firing on all cylinders, we didn't wait until we fell behind (we didn't fall behind in the Broncos game though.)
76Texan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #139
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
 
Kaiser Toro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Straight Outta Austin
Age: 44
Posts: 16,060
Rep Power: 41444 Kaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I am undecided. Some games, for instance Denver, I thought he came out with a great aggressive game plan and it worked well. Other games not so much. I think at times his system works brilliantly and gets people wide open. Other games they either don't use the plays or don't execute them as well.

I just commented because I think people get over the top in their comments. I agreed with most of eriadoc's post and only took issue with one comment I thought went too far. It's like Premier's revisionist comment above about needing more weapons being nonsense. Every single off-season there have been tons of people clamoring to upgrade WR#2 and #3. Now it is "nonsense" to say the same thing.
Last question, what other instances in your life did you need to wait eight years, to make a call on ditching or keeping an asset, of which you have been front and center as an observer.

Makes me ponder why do we allow our best practices, gut checks and scaling calls, learned from professional and personal experiences, be trumped by football fanaticism in our collective dialogue.
__________________
Smell the glove is here
Kaiser Toro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013   #140
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
 
Kaiser Toro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Straight Outta Austin
Age: 44
Posts: 16,060
Rep Power: 41444 Kaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respectedKaiser Toro is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
If you google it you will find stories about how Griese tripped on his dog, or on a faulty driveway that cause injury to his ankle, whatever.

More likely it was due to being drunk.

The fact remains that he had nagging injuries that prevented him from become better.

For a platoon player in college to a pro-bowl, I would think it wasn't bad at all.
He was not a platoon player. Moreover, he had the profile and legacy of a game manager. If Griese were available in the draft next year, I would have no doubt we would draft him.

Nagging injuries for Griese, and Kubiak/Smith did not see it coming with Schaub?
__________________
Smell the glove is here
Kaiser Toro is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management by RedTyger