Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

[Rey]

Originally Posted by Mr teX

It's simply a matter of determining who's coming and who's not that the qb tries to figure out. defenses try to disquise this by having multiple guys crowding the LOS like they're all blitzing..most times that's not the case so the qb uses a hard count to see which 1 of the guys in the middle tips their hands by jumping forward/jumping back. Good hard counts can usually reveal this and the qb's/centers can adjust protection and plays accordingly.

No. LOL.

Who is coming and who is not coming has 0 to do with determining the mike.

The qb identifies the mike so the o line knows where there initial steps and eyes should go. It determines which o lineman is responsible for which player.

And it's not even as important on passing plays as it is on running plays.

In the first game Brady was mostly calling out the mike on running plays. I was screaming at my tv yelling run.

In this past game, the first time he called out the mike I screamed draw! And sure enough it was a draw and everyone I was watching the game with looked at me.

He did mix it up and call it on some passes this game though. But I think he did that to mostly throw the defense off.

Brady isn't calling out who the texans are putting at mike. He's calling out who he's choosing to be the mike so he can get favorable blocking assignments.

In a zbs you don't normally identify the mike because it doesn't matter. O linemen make their blocking calls based on what they see and once the ball is hiked, you trust your steps.

[Kaiser Toro]

Originally Posted by Mr teX

Ponder wasn't thought to be much of anything until this year where his image only slightly improved. It still remains to be seen if he's going to be anything but a footnote if AD has anything but a superhuman regular season.

I'll give you Dalton but i think his ceiling is just about topped out. He's looked completely overmatched in his playoff match ups against up.

But what matters is that a QB drafted today, even in the 1st ten picks does not kill you if you miss, like in the past. The last two years have dispelled the myth of the veteran QB, largely because the college game is dictating NFL playbooks, the QB position is becoming more of a commodity and allows dollars to be spent elsewhere.

The Schaub contract should have been Smith's final mistake. There simply is no innovation going on at Reliant.

[silvrhand]

Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan

Checking down isn't the evil some of you think. The other team knows where that first down line is also. The problem with the Texans is that there are really only two players who make plays happen, Foster and Johnson. The Pats have another two or three players who if short of the 1st down can make moves, power, etc. to still convert.

But when the entire team is now pushing the coverage or the ball down the field, then you can sit on the 10-20 yard routes, and force the short 3-4 yards passes to a guy that gets no separation.

[eriadoc]

Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan

Checking down isn't the evil some of you think.

All things in moderation.

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by Mr teX

Bottom line, if you're not willing to move up into the top 5 your chances of landing your qb of the future are miniscule.

Pretty much, but these first time NFL fans and extremists see guys like Kapernick and Wilson being drafted last off season and that's all they see. They either have no idea about the other dozens of QB's that teams run through just like them that never pan out and just delay their QB situation even further, or they don't care. They just want to complain and use unrealistic answers to a problem.

I'd love to go out and get another QB. I just know about the odds in those late early rounds. I'd rather move up to the top 5 of the draft and get a guy who looks to have a really high ceiling and better odds at being a great player then these 3rd round type guys that people think are these easy picks to QB your team.

[Mr teX]

Originally Posted by Rey

No. LOL.

Who is coming and who is not coming has 0 to do with determining the mike.

The qb identifies the mike so the o line knows where there initial steps and eyes should go. It determines which o lineman is responsible for which player.

And it's not even as important on passing plays as it is on running plays.

In the first game Brady was mostly calling out the mike on running plays. I was screaming at my tv yelling run.

In this past game, the first time he called out the mike I screamed draw! And sure enough it was a draw and everyone I was watching the game with looked at me.



He did mix it up and call it on some passes this game though. But I think he did that to mostly throw the defense off.

Brady isn't calling out who the texans are putting at mike. He's calling out who he's choosing to be the mike so he can get favorable blocking assignments.

In a zbs you don't normally identify the mike because it doesn't matter. O linemen make their blocking calls based on what they see and once the ball is hiked, you trust your steps.

Lol, you said all that to basically confirm what i said from the bolded...to determine how to adjust protections and audibles... mosts times you see these guys doing it b/c they think a blitz is coming somewhere up the middle or is being threatened. I just spoke on it from the passing side and you spoke on it from the running side.

[deucetx]

Think you guys turned back to another Schaub talk. Regards to Schaub. He is not a top 10 quarterback at this time. Find it hard to go with that after how he closed the season/playoffs. Not to mention it's hard to say top ten if you can't even throw it down the field. Alex Smith can work a short game too and I definitely don't consider him top ten.

With that said...he isn't going anywhere and this is where I agree with the OP. If he isn't going anywhere then what choice do you have? Go status quo or improve the pieces around him to help make him better? He is just not the type of quarterback that will make players better. Instead, it is the other way around. And let's be honest...these receivers are not even medicore save the obvious one. Young receivers usually need some time to develop. Well we're contenders NOW so we may not have that luxury and with Posey questionable it makes it more difficult.

Tight ends? Decent but Daniels appeared a step slower later in the year and Graham started having head issues. So yes, we do need to get some pieces around Schaub. He needs those to be productive. He has Dre and Foster who can actually get YAC in this system. Daniels use to but lately just doesn't seem that guy. So when you have a system based on the playmakers making plays then you need actual playmakers.

And there is the point others stated. We need some more flexibility in this offense. No changes at the line and heck, we don't even change the snap count lol. Now I'm not sure if Payne is right or not as I heard another Texans insider say Schaub does get 2-3 plays he can change to if needed at the line. But is Kubiak overly strict in this? Will Schaub get berated for doing so? Or the alternative plays rarely better choices? Just things we don't know but from just observations it seems Kubiak has a bit of a stranglehold on the offense. It's why I would like an actual offensive coordinator with a different mind.

In other words...not another former Bronco.

[Texanmike02]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Pretty much, but these first time NFL fans and extremists see guys like Kapernick and Wilson being drafted last off season and that's all they see. They either have no idea about the other dozens of QB's that teams run through just like them that never pan out and just delay their QB situation even further, or they don't care. They just want to complain and use unrealistic answers to a problem.

I'd love to go out and get another QB. I just know about the odds in those late early rounds. I'd rather move up to the top 5 of the draft and get a guy who looks to have a really high ceiling and better odds at being a great player then these 3rd round type guys that people think are these easy picks to QB your team.

About the second paragraph. Even then the chances of getting a guy that is better than schaub in his first two or three years is almost zilch. My whole point is that if you just don't think you can win with Schaub then scrap the whole thing and start building for 2015-2016 because by the time you get a QB that can take you past the 2nd round of the playoffs you will be in there. You will waste the best years of Cushing Joseph, Manning, Foster, Brown et al developing a QB. Maybe you have to do that, maybe Schaub is not the answer... but it sure seems more likely that going out and getting a legit number 2/3 WR might get you to the same place a few years sooner. Bowe, Hartline, Jennings. I can't say it enough. If we have a receiver like that on our roster other than AJ then you put yourself in the position to have a chance to make a SB run over the next 2-3 years... if you start over at QB I'm doubtful you see the playoffs, much less the SB over the next 2-3 years.

Mike

[Mr teX]

Originally Posted by deucetx

Think you guys turned back to another Schaub talk. Regards to Schaub. He is not a top 10 quarterback at this time. Find it hard to go with that after how he closed the season/playoffs. Not to mention it's hard to say top ten if you can't even throw it down the field. Alex Smith can work a short game too and I definitely don't consider him top ten.

With that said...he isn't going anywhere and this is where I agree with the OP. If he isn't going anywhere then what choice do you have? Go status quo or improve the pieces around him to help make him better? He is just not the type of quarterback that will make players better. Instead, it is the other way around. And let's be honest...these receivers are not even medicore save the obvious one. Young receivers usually need some time to develop. Well we're contenders NOW so we may not have that luxury and with Posey questionable it makes it more difficult.

Tight ends? Decent but Daniels appeared a step slower later in the year and Graham started having head issues. So yes, we do need to get some pieces around Schaub. He needs those to be productive. He has Dre and Foster who can actually get YAC in this system. Daniels use to but lately just doesn't seem that guy. So when you have a system based on the playmakers making plays then you need actual playmakers.

And there is the point others stated. We need some more flexibility in this offense. No changes at the line and heck, we don't even change the snap count lol. Now I'm not sure if Payne is right or not as I heard another Texans insider say Schaub does get 2-3 plays he can change to if needed at the line. But is Kubiak overly strict in this? Will Schaub get berated for doing so? Or the alternative plays rarely better choices? Just things we don't know but from just observations it seems Kubiak has a bit of a stranglehold on the offense. It's why I would like an actual offensive coordinator with a different mind.

In other words...not another former Bronco.

I think we know what those "audibles" are..2 of which are 2 plays that we've been complaining about for a while now.

1. WR bubble screen to AJ
2. draw to Foster
3. 4 yd. curl to AJ

That's the only explanation i can come up with for running those plays on 3rd and forever all the time.

Like i've said, if we can see this, what makes you think that other HC's can't? Very rarely do you see Schaub and this offense radically change their formation if they are audibling. There may be audibles but they're like basic, unimaginative, stale audibles.

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by Texanmike02

I'm not saying he's in the Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees class. I do think he is in that next tier of QBs though. He falls between 6-10 for me. I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.

Mike

More like 14 to 20...only reason that 14 teams would pick him upis because of the Matt Cassel's. Brady Quinn's, Carson Palmers, kevin Kolb's, Mark Sanchez's, Tony Romo's, Vick's, Fitzpatrick, etc....

Not like there is a whole lotta competition

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by Texanmike02

About the second paragraph. Even then the chances of getting a guy that is better than schaub in his first two or three years is almost zilch. My whole point is that if you just don't think you can win with Schaub then scrap the whole thing and start building for 2015-2016 because by the time you get a QB that can take you past the 2nd round of the playoffs you will be in there. You will waste the best years of Cushing Joseph, Manning, Foster, Brown et al developing a QB. Maybe you have to do that, maybe Schaub is not the answer... but it sure seems more likely that going out and getting a legit number 2/3 WR might get you to the same place a few years sooner. Bowe, Hartline, Jennings. I can't say it enough. If we have a receiver like that on our roster other than AJ then you put yourself in the position to have a chance to make a SB run over the next 2-3 years... if you start over at QB I'm doubtful you see the playoffs, much less the SB over the next 2-3 years.

Mike

I disagree big time based off of what I saw out of Schaub at the end of the season. I'm not saying that it would be easy either by any means, but if we could get a guy with a really good arm that can get out of the pocket and buy time while improving the defense, it isn't out of the question to assume that we can get a guy that could possibly do better for us in the playoffs. Big Ben almost made the SB his rookie year and he was nothing but a game manager for the most part, but he was able to improvise and extend plays just like he does now.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by Texanmike02

About the second paragraph. Even then the chances of getting a guy that is better than schaub in his first two or three years is almost zilch.

Its definitely zilch if you don't try.

[handswarmer]

Originally Posted by Rey

Its definitely zilch if you don't try.

Bingo!

[deucetx]

Originally Posted by Mr teX

I think we know what those "audibles" are..2 of which are 2 plays that we've been complaining about for a while now.

1. WR bubble screen to AJ
2. draw to Foster
3. 4 yd. curl to AJ

That's the only explanation i can come up with for running those plays on 3rd and forever all the time.

Like i've said, if we can see this, what makes you think that other HC's can't? Very rarely do you see Schaub and this offense radically change their formation if they are audibling. There may be audibles but they're like basic, unimaginative, stale audibles.

LOL this is funny and sad at the same time. Scares me that I think this could honestly be true.

[Double Barrel]

Originally Posted by Texanmike02

Compare lists?

Mike

Sure (just for fun). It's not really a debate, but more of discussion. I'm more curious of those middle QBs, because there will be some we both agree on at each end of the spectrum.

This is not about who we think is better, but rather who we think would want to get rid of their current QB in favor of Schaub (based upon your statement: "I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.")

Here is where I got this list (updated week 17).

Blue for teams that I think would not want Schaub.

Red for teams that I think that would want Schaub.

AFC East:
Buffalo Bills: Ryan Fitzpatrick
Miami Dolphins: Ryan Tannehill
New England Patriots: Tom Brady
New York Jets: Mark Sanchez

AFC North:
Baltimore Ravens: Joe Flacco
Cincinnati Bengals: Andy Dalton
Cleveland Browns: Thaddeus Lewis
Pittsburgh Steelers: Ben Roethlisberger

AFC South:
Indianapolis Colts: Andrew Luck
Jacksonville Jaguars: Chad Henne
Tennessee Titans: Jake Locker

AFC West:
Denver Broncos: Peyton Manning
Kansas City Chiefs: Brady Quinn
Oakland Raiders: Terrelle Pryor
San Diego Chargers: Philip Rivers

NFC East:
Dallas Cowboys: Tony Romo
New York Giants: Eli Manning
Philadelphia Eagles: Michael Vick
Washington Redskins: Robert Griffin III

NFC North:
Chicago Bears: Jay Cutler
Detroit Lions: Matthew Stafford
Green Bay Packers: Aaron Rodgers
Minnesota Vikings: Christian Ponder

NFC South:
Atlanta Falcons: Matt Ryan
Carolina Panthers: Cam Newton
New Orleans Saints: Drew Brees
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Josh Freeman

NFC West:
Arizona Cardinals: Brian Hoyer
San Francisco 49ers: Colin Kaepernick
Seattle Seahawks: Russell Wilson
St. Louis Rams: Sam Bradford

I have 10 teams on my list that I feel would immediately pick up Schaub and "consider him an upgrade over their QB".

Your mileage may vary. I look forward to your reply.

p.s. Keep in mind this is not a debate of "who is better". For instance, the Cowboys are not getting rid of Romo, regardless if Schaub is available. So please keep that in mind.

[Mr teX]

Originally Posted by Rey

Its definitely zilch if you don't try.

112 qbs taken in the draft since 2002, a total of 34 in the first, 46 total if you add the 2nd round in.

of that 112, 25 of those qbs were starters for the majority of the season for teams last year........

19 of those 25 were 1st rounders........that's around 80% of the 25 that were starters and ironically around 80% of the starters in the league period.

Of those 1st rounders, the lowest selection of all those was Rodgers at 24.

Now, lets look at the percentages of finding a very good starter outside of the 1st round.

Only 4 of the 25 were drafted outside of the 1st..Schaub being the lowest of all those i believe in the 3rd round....that's around what, 18%?

the other 3 who were drafted outside of the 1st?....all were selected these last 2 years...Dalton, Kap and Wilson. But if you take these last 2 remarkable years away that's 1 guy in the last 10 years of the 25 starters that has managed to stick around in this league & be a decent starter....that's a little over a 3% chance.

the numbers might be off a little depending on how you want to handle Arizona's qb debackle but not by much. So, it's not quite zilch, but damn close to it....If we're going to go for a qb, it needs to be in the 1st; even then its still an iffy proposition b/c i didn't even go into detail about how many of those 25 starters were at least as good or better than schaub...the numbers would suggest that its pretty high.

[deucetx]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Sure (just for fun). It's not really a debate, but more of discussion. I'm more curious of those middle QBs, because there will be some we both agree on at each end of the spectrum.

This is not about who we think is better, but rather who we think would want to get rid of their current QB in favor of Schaub (based upon your statement: "I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.")

Good listing though I think you're being generous in some, heh. I think a few of those you say would be interested probably wouldn't:

Dolphins: Tannenhill showed too much promise for them to want Schaub in my opinion. He has a higher ceiling though they'll be lucky if it works out in the end. Got to root for an aggie though...at least some of us, heh.

Bengals: Schaub and Dalton are really not much different except Dalton is young and a bit more athletic so you would keep the younger guy over a veteran who really hasn't accomplished a lot. Plus if he can't toss it downfield you're wasting one of the best young receiver in the league in Green.

Titans: Locker still young and promising. They hated even putting Hasslebach (sp) out there so they wouldn't want to go with Schaub with more potential with Locker...even if I think he's average, heh.

Vikings: I think they'd take Schaub over Ponder right now. This one is a close one though so could swing either direction really. Guess it matters how much promise they see in the kid. I didn't much of anything except someone who would be a great backup.

So I would take your eleven down to eight but raise it up to a possible nine. Heh, could call it 8.5 since the Vikings is a push. But I sure don't see no 2/3 of the league...

[Kaiser Toro]

Originally Posted by Mr teX

112 qbs taken in the draft since 2002, a total of 34 in the first, 46 total if you add the 2nd round in.

of that 112, 25 of those qbs were starters for the majority of the season for teams last year........

19 of those 25 were 1st rounders........that's around 80% of the 25 that were starters and ironically around 80% of the starters in the league period.

Of those 1st rounders, the lowest selection of all those was Rodgers at 24.

Now, lets look at the percentages of finding a very good starter outside of the 1st round.

Only 4 of the 25 were drafted outside of the 1st..Schaub being the lowest of all those i believe in the 3rd round....that's around what, 18%?

the other 3 who were drafted outside of the 1st?....all were selected these last 2 years...Dalton, Kap and Wilson. But if you take these last 2 remarkable years away that's 1 guy in the last 10 years of the 25 starters that has managed to stick around in this league & be a decent starter....that's a little over a 3% chance.

the numbers might be off a little depending on how you want to handle Arizona's qb debackle but not by much. So, it's not quite zilch, but damn close to it....If we're going to go for a qb, it needs to be in the 1st; even then its still an iffy proposition b/c i didn't even go into detail about how many of those 25 starters were at least as good or better than schaub...the numbers would suggest that its pretty high.

Everything changed in 2011. These numbers are not a true compare given the disruptive force of the rookie labor pool being skewed towards the spread and speed, and the CBA. The last two years are the baseline or the new normal.

Having an offensive scheme to leverage the new market is the major issue. We do not have an innovator at HC or in the Front office, and that is why we are at our ceiling during this time of major disruption. In McNair's terms, we are having scaling issues.

[Bulls on Parade]

Originally Posted by Texanmike02

I went back and rewatched our game. Painful. But I was specifically looking for something.

What about those dropped passes by James Casey and Arian Foster in the 1st quarter? The Casey drop cost us a Touchdown on our first drive and we settled for three. The Foster drop came on a third-down pass that had a potential big gain written all over it and we ended up punting. He had the linebacker beat and the ball just glanced off his hands as he reached low for it. Perhaps Schaub needed to throw it a couple inches higher but Foster makes that play most of the time.

We had a chance to go up 14-0 in that game. It wasn't even Schaub's fault. We dropped passes we needed to make, plain and simple. Guys who usually make those plays also. The frustrating part is our offense did get into a nice little Rhythm. They had made three consecutive first downs on three straight plays prior to the Arian Foster drop on that fourth set of downs.

After that 1st quarter, in which I felt we totally out-played the Patriots but somehow trailed 7-3, I knew we were facing an uphill battle thanks to not making the key plays on offense.

There is no need for me to re-watch the game. I can go off what I watched during the live game. We blew it in the first half. We could have easily had a nice little halftime lead instead of trailing 17-13.

Once the second half started, it was the Patriots game to win. We had already blown our chance in the first half, more specifically the first quarter. This team needed to score a couple Touchdowns early on. They needed a 14-0 lead and not a pathetic 3-0 lead.

[Bulls on Parade]

People are complaining about Schaub and Kubiak but the problem is we dropped some balls that should have been caught. We lost the game because we didn't make the offensive plays we needed to make. Had we taken a two-score lead like we had a great chance to do early on, that would have changed everything. The entire game after that would have been a lot different. It would have been our game to control.

The Patriots were very beatable but we let them off the hook. That first half was ours for the taking and we simply blew our chances. I'm not sure we would have won this game even with a healthy Brian Cushing (assuming those dropped passes by Casey and Foster still take place), but I do think we could have held New England to 31 points (tops) and not 41. And I feel our offense left so many points on the table. They could have scored more than 31 points in that game.

But sigh, on to the long and boring off-season. Next year I don't want to hear people criticize Kubiak and Schaub. We have a great team that can win a Super Bowl. We just need a little luck staying healthy and our players to make the plays that are given to them.

Making plays... Bottom Line... We didn't do that at Foxboro.

Anyways. I'm done ranting. That's my two cents. I'm not talking about the Texans again until the NFL Draft.