Schaub + Receivers vs Other QBs and their Receivers

[silvrhand]

It's simple..

Matt simply checked down way too much this year, now the question we don't know is why..

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...S/SchaMa00.htm

[Playoffs]

Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL

Schaub is bright enough to do so much more before the snap, but has no authority to do it.

Brady takes 15 seconds and a hard count to identify the mike. Texans just line up and go. Brady wins.

Need to take the training wheels off Schaub when it comes to pre-snap invol

[Texanmike02]

Originally Posted by WolverineFan

Completely agree. Look what Brady has done with Welker. He was a nobody in Miami and now he's a perennial All-Pro in New England. Moss had his best season ever with Brady. Deion Branch won a Super Bowl MVP with Brady and then did nothing in Seattle after leaving in FA.

It would be nice to add some more weapons for the offense but the problems start with Schaub.

But its not as simple as "what he's done with Welker". Name the receivers Welker played with in MIA or SD. Since he's been in NE?

2007
Moss
Stallworth
2008
Moss
2009
Moss
Edleman
2010
Branch (40 rec 15 ypc)
Gronk
Hernandez
(worth noting that pre-injury his ypc was down about 2 yards, his r/g was about half of the rest of the years and his y/g was about half of the rest of the years in NE the year moss left)

2011
Gronk
Hernandez
Branch

2012
Lloyd
Hernandez
Sometimes Gronk
Branch

His least productive year (by far) even if you carry the numbers forward for 16 games was 2010. While Brady had a high QB rating, that year it is the only non injury year in which he didn't reach 4000 yards.

Interestingly enough, that year the Pats asked a lot less of Brady. Instead of throwing 600 passes he only threw 490. Schaub routinely gets asked to throw the ball 550-600 times a year and doesn't have anyone other than AJ (sometimes OD, when he's not hurt) that can hold anyone on that list's jock strap.

Can you name a single receiver that has been on our roster not named Andre Johnson that has as much talent as any player on that list? I submit that you cannot.

Mike

[Texanmike02]

Originally Posted by ckhouston

Not even close.

Look at what is being said now after the game Sunday.

Most "experts" are questioning Matt.

He isn't even top 20.

Most "experts" were questioning Matt Ryan this time last year. Most "experts" were questioning Eli after the first few games of the year last year. Most "experts" question any player that has things go bad because it makes good press.

Most "experts" will show tape (over and over and over) on shows like "playbook" talk about "missing targets" pointing out how open somebody is as somebody else catches that ball, ignoring the fact that everyone on the field has reacted to the throw and not evaluating "open" at the time the ball is thrown.

Not even top 20? Wow.

Mike

[GRONKED]

Originally Posted by Playoffs

Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL

That sucks if true. You have to give him command of the offense.

The problem isn't lack of weapons. Andre OD and foster are plenty.

Its the hc/oc/qb or system that isn't getting the most of them. I haven't followed the Texans quite enough to claim to know which it is. In our mnf it was both..kubiak insisted on running repeatedly into wilfork (not a great plan for winning a shootout) and Schaub was consistently missing the wide open foster (most glaringly in the interception)

[Texanmike02]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro

2/3 of the league does not make the playoffs. Why wouldn't they want a starting QB from a playoff team, if priced right? Heck I would keep Schaub if his cap hit was half of what it is the next three years. We are over invested in this QB, and we are over invested in this legacy offensive game plan, IMO.

There is nobody out there that you can sign for half the cap hit that is 60% the QB that Schaub is. Your window is open right now for a few years without retooling. If you think Schaub is a weakness then you had better figure out what you need to do to make it work. Going out and getting a Jennings/Bowe/Hartline type player makes sense. Getting rid of Schaub (with no real plan for a replacement) will land you squarely in 2007-2008 again. If there had been a time that we had more than 1 above average receiver on this team I would be more inclined to believe that Schaub was the problem. Hell I didn't put Jabar Gaffney on that list. Before you laugh, at Washington of all places he caught 68 balls for 970 yards last year. He was on the Pats for a few years too. We don't have a guy with THAT kind of ability on our roster and he was their 3rd or 4th receiver.

Mike

[Mr teX]

Originally Posted by Playoffs

Reads bottom to top, from a guy who has been inside the Texans and still has a few friends in there...

Seth Payne ‏@PayneNFL

Good post and i'll bet that none of Schaub's detractors are going to address this even though it probably holds more weight than anything anyone on here says. When you get down to it, Kubiak is the real issue here for 1 of 2 reasons.

#1..The above tweet from Seth Payne illustrates it. Schaub's not given free range to audible to take advantage of possible defensive mismatches by Kubiak. It clearly shows in the playcalling, how the offense runs during certain situations (down by 20+ in the 4th and we're still not running sugar huddle & getting plays called in from the sidelines?) and of course our tempo at times with hard counts. If Payne can see it, what makes you think coaches like Belichick don't see it?

#2..if it's simply a matter of Kubiak not trusting Schaub........for whatever reason.......then lets move on and try to find a qb that does inspire his trust. Draft, trade, pay him under the table.....whatever. But no, they've picked up all these guys who don't stand a chance of becoming anything & of course they extend Schaub. & yeah, the last part of that is mainly on Smith, but i gotta believe that Kubiak had some say in whether or not they extended him or not.

#3..the weapons around him, more specifically the ones on the outside. Kubiak's looking at it from the wrong perspective. having a WR that can block is great...above all though, those WR's have to be a threat in the passing game..we really only have 1. Our offense looks eerily like ATL's did just a few years ago. heavily dependent on the run but couldn't do much once the run got shutdown in the playoffs. They realized that they needed to get more weaponry for Ryan on the outside, better, more aggressive playcalling enter Dirk Koetter, TG and Julio Jones. Matt Ryan and that offense exploded this year.

Schaub's not elite; everybody on this board acknowledges that. But Kubiak most certainly isn't helping him and this offense like he thinks he is. I would think that more than anything, he's hindering him by keeping guys like Walter

[Kaiser Toro]

Originally Posted by Texanmike02

Getting rid of Schaub (with no real plan for a replacement) will land you squarely in 2007-2008 again.
Mike

Broncos, 49ers, Seahawks, Vikings, and Redskins. All had WR and/or QB issues going into the 2012 draft/season. They survived.

We can do better, unfortunately the decision maker(s) do not have the stones or the competency to change.

[Texanmike02]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro

Broncos, 49ers, Seahawks, Vikings, and Redskins. All had WR and/or QB issues going into the 2012 draft/season. They survived.

We can do better, unfortunately the decision maker(s) do not have the stones or the competency to change.

The only one in a comperable situation was the 9ers. There is no Peyton Manning avaliabe and we don't have a top 10 pick. Want a list of teams that had QB problems that didn't get it sorted out?

Mike

[Double Barrel]

Originally Posted by Texanmike02

I'm not saying he's in the Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees class. I do think he is in that next tier of QBs though. He falls between 6-10 for me. I guarantee you if we released him today at least 2/3 of the league would consider him an upgrade over their QB.

Mike

I just went through the entire list of 32 starting QBs in the NFL and could only come up with 9-10 teams that fit your criteria.

1/3rd of the league, but far from 60-70% that you purport.

[Mr teX]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro

Broncos, 49ers, Seahawks, Vikings, and Redskins. All had WR and/or QB issues going into the 2012 draft/season. They survived.

We can do better, unfortunately the decision maker(s) do not have the stones or the competency to change.

This year's draft was the exception not the rule.

I submit to you every qb draft since 2006 with 2007 being especially atrocious...only a hair better than the 2006 draft b/c Jay Cutler is at least still consider a starter. The attrition rate is terrible for drafting qbs. I still would rather us draft our guy than trade for some guy that may or may not be the answer. Care to guess where this year's qb crop ranks on the spectrum? Bottom line, if you're not willing to move up into the top 5 your chances of landing your qb of the future are miniscule.

[JCTexan]

Originally Posted by Seth Payne

Brady takes 15 seconds and a hard count to identify the mike. Texans just line up and go. Brady wins

Can someone explain this a little more thoroughly? Wouldn't teams have the same mike linebacker every snap? Does it have more to do with the scheme the team is using?

[Kaiser Toro]

Originally Posted by Texanmike02

The only one in a comperable situation was the 9ers. There is no Peyton Manning avaliabe and we don't have a top 10 pick. Want a list of teams that had QB problems that didn't get it sorted out?

Mike

Anyone who watches this league can tell you do not need a top 10 pick for QB or top WRs to show significant YoY improvement.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by Mr teX

Good post and i'll bet that none of Schaub's detractors are going to address this even though it probably holds more weight than anything anyone on here says. When you get down to it, Kubiak is the real issue here for 1 of 2 reasons.

#1..The above tweet from Seth Payne illustrates it.

Payne us late. This is bot some breaking news. Plenty of people have said that for a while now.

I've mentioned it in several threads including this one.

[Mr teX]

Originally Posted by JCTexan

Can someone explain this a little more thoroughly? Wouldn't teams have the same mike linebacker every snap? Does it have more to do with the scheme the team is using?

It's simply a matter of determining who's coming and who's not that the qb tries to figure out. defenses try to disquise this by having multiple guys crowding the LOS like they're all blitzing..most times that's not the case so the qb uses a hard count to see which 1 of the guys in the middle tips their hands by jumping forward/jumping back. Good hard counts can usually reveal this and the qb's/centers can adjust protection and plays accordingly.

[Mr teX]

Originally Posted by Rey

Payne us late. This is bot some breaking news. Plenty of people have said that for a while now.

I've mentioned it in several threads including this one.

never said it was, either way it illustrates the bigger issue at hand.

[Kaiser Toro]

Originally Posted by Mr teX

This year's draft was the exception not the rule.

Dalton and Ponder got their team to the playoffs this year and Yates last year. Plenty of history to consider in the last two years, and these two years are here to stay, in that the college game has completely changed and the new NFL CBA.

[Mr teX]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro

Dalton and Ponder got their team to the playoffs this year and Yates last year. Plenty of history to consider in the last two years, and these two years are here to stay, in that the college game has completely changed and the new NFL CBA.

Ponder wasn't thought to be much of anything until this year where his image only slightly improved. It still remains to be seen if he's going to be anything but a footnote if AD has anything but a superhuman regular season.

I'll give you Dalton but i think his ceiling is just about topped out. He's looked completely overmatched in his playoff match ups against up.

[Texanmike02]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

I just went through the entire list of 32 starting QBs in the NFL and could only come up with 9-10 teams that fit your criteria.

1/3rd of the league, but far from 60-70% that you purport.

Compare lists?

Mike

[ArlingtonTexan]

Originally Posted by silvrhand

It's simple..

Matt simply checked down way too much this year, now the question we don't know is why..

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...S/SchaMa00.htm

Checking down isn't the evil some of you think. The other team knows where that first down line is also. The problem with the Texans is that there are really only two players who make plays happen, Foster and Johnson. The Pats have another two or three players who if short of the 1st down can make moves, power, etc. to still convert.