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Old 01-15-2013   #101
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Not much to assess this year. What I saw last year was a "green" game manager type that did not make many bad decisions, with a team that stepped up its game to compensate for the QB position.

Cannot make all the throws, not sure about vision, potentially good feet for the playbook. My assessment is incomplete, but do not believe he is a starting QB in the NFL.

QB is extremely important in a Kubiak offense, consequently, he has folks on this roster who he thinks can help this team win his way. I am 100% that he is confident in what he is looking for, which does not give me confidence in a Super Bowl appearance with him at the helm.

Griese, Plummer, Carr, Schaub, and Yates are what he should be measured on. He shouldn't get credit for Young or Elway in an objective historical view on his performance as a QB guru.

Kubiak took us to the playoffs, and has done his job. We have reached the limits of his skill set, and need to move on. He is not the only player's coach, QB guru, model citizen, "local" boy, etc, that could coach this team tomorrow or in the future.

No more run rate business McNair, give us a head coach/GM who can identify big opportunities and close them.
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Old 01-15-2013   #102
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
Not much to assess this year. What I saw last year was a "green" game manager type that did not make many bad decisions, with a team that stepped up its game to compensate for the QB position.

Cannot make all the throws, not sure about vision, potentially good feet for the playbook. My assessment is incomplete, but do not believe he is a starting QB in the NFL.

QB is extremely important in a Kubiak offense, consequently, he has folks on this roster who he thinks can help this team win his way. I am 100% that he is confident in what he is looking for, which does not give me confidence in a Super Bowl appearance with him at the helm.

Griese, Plummer, Carr, Schaub, and Yates are what he should be measured on. He shouldn't get credit for Young or Elway in an objective historical view on his performance as a QB guru.

Kubiak took us to the playoffs, and has done his job. We have reached the limits of his skill set, and need to move on. He is not the only player's coach, QB guru, model citizen, "local" boy, etc, that could coach this team tomorrow or in the future.

No more run rate business McNair, give us a head coach/GM who can identify big opportunities and close them.
Great post. I especially like the part where you bring up the "real" historical perspective of what Kubiak has done with QB's and how inaccurate this idea of him being a "QB Guru" is and always has been. He has nothing to stand on to suggest that. Kubiak is way to controlling in my eyes from what I can see as an observer that isn't actually on the team. But a huge part of my fear of getting a new QB (Which is what I want) is to have to go through the treads of QB's that Kubiak would likely bring in here. I don't think he has a real solid history of finding great QB's in this league, and my first guess is that Kubiak would probably go after another guy that is very similar to Schaub. People wanting some new Russell Wilson type of guy is something I don't see Kubiak doing. I could be wrong if he ever does make a serious push towards going after a new QB, but that is yet to be seen.
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Old 01-15-2013   #103
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by Texecutioner View Post
Great post. I especially like the part where you bring up the "real" historical perspective of what Kubiak has done with QB's and how inaccurate this idea of him being a "QB Guru" is and always has been.
While I agree with KT's post and think it's a good one, let me offer an alternative perspective that ties in at the end.

Kubiak should absolutely be judged on those guys that KT said. And where I was optimistic about Kubiak back in the day was based on what he had done with Plummer and Griese. He took two guys that really weren't good and made them good enough to have Pro Bowl years. Griese actually did go to the Pro Bowl. When you add to that the fact that Elway and Young, who were already HOFers, had their best seasons under Kubiak, it showed to me he could take a good QB and elevate their game even more. I still believe that to be true.

What I do not believe to be true is that he can identify that really good QB to elevate. Griese - Plummer - Schaub establishes a pattern. Either he's arrogant enough to believe that he doesn't need a great talent at QB, or he's too insecure to handle a great talent at QB, or he simply can't identify one. Maybe he believes his system is good enough to compensate for the lack of talent at that position. I don't know. But I've lost faith in Kubiak, that's for sure.
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Old 01-15-2013   #104
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
While I agree with KT's post and think it's a good one, let me offer an alternative perspective that ties in at the end.

Kubiak should absolutely be judged on those guys that KT said. And where I was optimistic about Kubiak back in the day was based on what he had done with Plummer and Griese. He took two guys that really weren't good and made them good enough to have Pro Bowl years. Griese actually did go to the Pro Bowl. When you add to that the fact that Elway and Young, who were already HOFers, had their best seasons under Kubiak, it showed to me he could take a good QB and elevate their game even more. I still believe that to be true.

What I do not believe to be true is that he can identify that really good QB to elevate. Griese - Plummer - Schaub establishes a pattern. Either he's arrogant enough to believe that he doesn't need a great talent at QB, or he's too insecure to handle a great talent at QB, or he simply can't identify one. Maybe he believes his system is good enough to compensate for the lack of talent at that position. I don't know. But I've lost faith in Kubiak, that's for sure.
I never thought Griese was really good. He was more average to me or slightly above it. If he made the Pro Bowl it was probably more like a Pro Bowl year like Schaub had this season.

As far as Plummer goes, he was very good before coming to Denver. He was just stuck on a complete abomination of a team with the Cardinals. Those were some awful Cardinals teams, but Plummer had shown for years that he was mobile and could make plays. It wasn't a surprise at all to see Denver's offense improve a lot with Plummer where they ended up in the AFC Championship game beating the patriots in round 2. Plummer got burnt out though, and seemed to really hate playing football after while. I don't know if the Cardinals years did that to him or what, but he had enough once he was traded to another struggling franchise in the Bucs.

Elway was Elway though. He is one of the best of all time for a reason, and I don't think he was the type that needed some great system or coach to make him look great. Elway was one of the best improv QB's I've ever seen in this league especially in the clutch. I think that Kubiak benefited more from having Elway then Elway having Kubiak, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 01-15-2013   #105
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
Not much to assess this year. What I saw last year was a "green" game manager type that did not make many bad decisions, with a team that stepped up its game to compensate for the QB position.

Cannot make all the throws, not sure about vision, potentially good feet for the playbook. My assessment is incomplete, but do not believe he is a starting QB in the NFL.

QB is extremely important in a Kubiak offense, consequently, he has folks on this roster who he thinks can help this team win his way. I am 100% that he is confident in what he is looking for, which does not give me confidence in a Super Bowl appearance with him at the helm.

Griese, Plummer, Carr, Schaub, and Yates are what he should be measured on. He shouldn't get credit for Young or Elway in an objective historical view on his performance as a QB guru.

Kubiak took us to the playoffs, and has done his job. We have reached the limits of his skill set, and need to move on. He is not the only player's coach, QB guru, model citizen, "local" boy, etc, that could coach this team tomorrow or in the future.

No more run rate business McNair, give us a head coach/GM who can identify big opportunities and close them.
Kubiak choose to go MIA with Yates. Could be unconscious, directly based off his own playing career as back-up to Elway, but Schaub is no Elway. So does he need someone within the organization to remind him?

Key to any success with Kubiak QB position is deception ability to sell play action. From limited action I've seen of Yates due to quickness, he actually can execute more effective. His release is not as long & the ball comes out quicker. The one thing I disagree with you on is that he did make mistakes & forced the ball into tight windows trying to make something happen. Not that I have a problem with it but Kubiak must, he just doesn't trust decision making process. Progression, check down, throw it away, avoid bodily harm.

All this talk is fine but you, me or anyone knows nothing will change at least for a couple more years. What they'll do more likely is to add weapons, beef up the offensive line & add another pass rusher - Stronger supporting cast while keeping the lead actor
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Old 01-15-2013   #106
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
Kubiak choose to go MIA with Yates. Could be unconscious, directly based off his own playing career as back-up to Elway, but Schaub is no Elway. So does he need someone within the organization to remind him?

Key to any success with Kubiak QB position is deception ability to sell play action. From limited action I've seen of Yates due to quickness, he actually can execute more effective. His release is not as long & the ball comes out quicker. The one thing I disagree with you on is that he did make mistakes & forced the ball into tight windows trying to make something happen. Not that I have a problem with it but Kubiak must, he just doesn't trust decision making process. Progression, check down, throw it away, avoid bodily harm.

All this talk is fine but you, me or anyone knows nothing will change at least for a couple more years. What they'll do more likely is to add weapons, beef up the offensive line & add another pass rusher - Stronger supporting cast while keeping the lead actor
Yates did not make many mistakes, which is a trait I liked about him - knowing his role. The problem with Schaub is executing his role or the staff having a QB that can execute the legacy playbook in an evolving league.

I am fully aware that we are stuck with this GM, HC and QB through 2014 at the least. It is depressing being depressed about hitting the plateau. We hit it hard after seven years, and there will be no optimism or progress without significant change. The signs were there from day one, and the historicals after seven years have only solidified the initial warnings.

Rookie owner, rookie GM, rookie HC, rookie QB. This is who we are, and is no wonder that success eludes us when diversity is thrown our way. Seven friggin years - execute or be executed.
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Old 01-15-2013   #107
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by DexmanC View Post
TJ Yates did a good job last year. Schaub is healthy, so Yates rides the pine.
My point was, Foster didn't start 2010 because he performed better
than Slaton and Tate. He started because both those guys hit
IR before the start of the season. Kubiak was blown away by
what he had in Foster after the Colts game, just like the rest of us were.

Gary is not a proactive coach. He will wait until the decision to
stay pat is removed from his hands, just like the scenario that brought
Wade Phillips here.
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Old 01-15-2013   #108
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Gary is not a proactive coach. He will wait until the decision to
stay pat is removed from his hands, just like the scenario that brought
Wade Phillips here.



which is why we are stuck watching Schaub for the next few years...
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Old 01-15-2013   #109
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
What I do not believe to be true is that he can identify that really good QB to elevate. Griese - Plummer - Schaub establishes a pattern. Either he's arrogant enough to believe that he doesn't need a great talent at QB, or he's too insecure to handle a great talent at QB, or he simply can't identify one.
Agree with the remainder of your post but I think this overstates things and draws incorrect conclusions on a pattern. The only QB Kubiak picked was Schaub. He probably was asked his opinion on Griese and Plummer but he wasn't one of the two primary decision makers - the HC and GM.
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Old 01-15-2013   #110
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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He probably was asked his opinion on Griese and Plummer but he wasn't one of the two primary decision makers - the HC and GM.
Are you offering the narrative that Kubiak had not earned the ability to provide a recommendation on potential QB signings, as the QB Coach and OC, in the early 2000's?
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Old 01-15-2013   #111
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

What if Mike Shanahan never was a genius at picking and developing QBs? What if Gary Kubiak was the QB genius all along?
....

A common jibe at Mike Shanahan goes, "What has Shanahan won without Elway?" This is typically well answered, "What did Elway win without Shanahan?"

These may be the wrong questions. Better question: "What has Shanahan won without Gary Kubiak?"

Even more pertinent: What if Mike Shanahan was never a QB genius? What if it was Gary Kubiak all along?

By "QB genius," I mean someone who can choose the right QB (assess various QBs accurately from afar) and develop that QB (help that QB to become productive in your system).

Obviously Mike Shanahan earned his stripes in the NFL, but he did so as an offensive strategist. He didn't find Joe Montana or Steve Young: Bill Walsh did. Steve Young had a 101.8 QB rating the year before Shanahan came to the 49ers. But, with Shanahan as offensive coordinator in 1992, the 49ers did go from 10-6 to 14-2. He took a very good offense and made it better.

Here's what he didn't do for the 49ers: pick Steve Young. He also didn't pick John Elway for the Broncos.

Meanwhile, Kubiak definitely picked Matt Schaub (trading for him), taking the Falcons backup QB and making him the Houston starter. Did he also pick Jake Plummer as a reclamation project?


...

Read the core of it all here, from a Redkins MB.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthre...nius-all-along
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Old 01-15-2013   #112
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
Are you offering the narrative that Kubiak had not earned the ability to provide a recommendation on potential QB signings, as the QB Coach and OC, in the early 2000's?
Didn't I say he offered his opinion? I am sure that would have included a recommendation. But what I am saying is you can't draw too much of a conclusion when his opinion is 3rd or 4th in the hierarchy. It may very well be Kubiak did recommend both Griese and Plummer but we don't know that. We do know Shanahan is a very strong willed guy who is unlikely to have just deferred to whatever Kubiak wanted. Maybe we should credit the Texans' DL coach for picking Watt.
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Old 01-15-2013   #113
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
What if Mike Shanahan never was a genius at picking and developing QBs? What if Gary Kubiak was the QB genius all along?
....

A common jibe at Mike Shanahan goes, "What has Shanahan won without Elway?" This is typically well answered, "What did Elway win without Shanahan?"

These may be the wrong questions. Better question: "What has Shanahan won without Gary Kubiak?"

Even more pertinent: What if Mike Shanahan was never a QB genius? What if it was Gary Kubiak all along?

By "QB genius," I mean someone who can choose the right QB (assess various QBs accurately from afar) and develop that QB (help that QB to become productive in your system).

Obviously Mike Shanahan earned his stripes in the NFL, but he did so as an offensive strategist. He didn't find Joe Montana or Steve Young: Bill Walsh did. Steve Young had a 101.8 QB rating the year before Shanahan came to the 49ers. But, with Shanahan as offensive coordinator in 1992, the 49ers did go from 10-6 to 14-2. He took a very good offense and made it better.

Here's what he didn't do for the 49ers: pick Steve Young. He also didn't pick John Elway for the Broncos.

Meanwhile, Kubiak definitely picked Matt Schaub (trading for him), taking the Falcons backup QB and making him the Houston starter. Did he also pick Jake Plummer as a reclamation project?


...

Read the core of it all here, from a Redkins MB.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthre...nius-all-along
Nice find, but that thread was started in October 2011. Shanahan changed, gambled and won.
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Old 01-15-2013   #114
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Didn't I say he offered his opinion? I am sure that would have included a recommendation. But what I am saying is you can't draw too much of a conclusion when his opinion is 3rd or 4th in the hierarchy. It may very well be Kubiak did recommend both Griese and Plummer but we don't know that. We do know Shanahan is a very strong willed guy who is unlikely to have just deferred to whatever Kubiak wanted. Maybe we should credit the Texans' DL coach for picking Watt.
I would expect free agents and draft picks to work in different silos. I would also expect to have an accomplished OC/QB coach have most of the input in the free agent recommendation.

Is there no accountability around Kubiak's career? Rhetorical question of course.
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Old 01-15-2013   #115
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Nice find, but that thread was started in October 2011. Shanahan changed, gambled and won.
We don't know.

RG III is a QB that Art Briles developed, if anybody can be given credit for (where RG III came from in HS, the scheme and stufff was heavily influenced by Briles.)

Shannahan really didn't have much to do with him that I can really see as influential.

Besides, Shanahan's adaptation of the zone read to fit RG III's skill set isn't his (Shanahan's) cup of tea and it may backfire if RG III doesn't come back healthy next year.
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Old 01-15-2013   #116
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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We don't know.

RG III is a QB that Art Briles developed, if anybody can be given credit for (where RG III came from in HS, the scheme and stufff was heavily influenced by Briles.)

Shannahan really didn't have much to do with him that I can really see as influential.

Besides, Shanahan's adaptation of the zone read to fit RG III's skill set isn't his (Shanahan's) cup of tea and it may backfire if RG III doesn't come back healthy next year.
Exactly, the Shanahans are innovating. They understand that the labor pool is different and are taking action to apply to their playbook.
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Old 01-15-2013   #117
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

Tj Yates, or Alex Smith? Who you taking?

I like Tj Yates. I think if he ever gets a chance to start, he'll end up with a career much like Jake Plummer.

I liked watching Jake Plummer play, very entertaining. Sorta like Romo, but a notch down.

I like watching both Romo & Plummer play.... but I don't want either running my team.

Just trying to make conversation.
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Old 01-15-2013   #118
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Tj Yates, or Alex Smith? Who you taking?

I like Tj Yates. I think if he ever gets a chance to start, he'll end up with a career much like Jake Plummer.

I liked watching Jake Plummer play, very entertaining. Sorta like Romo, but a notch down.

I like watching both Romo & Plummer play.... but I don't want either running my team.

Just trying to make conversation.
I would take neither.
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Old 01-15-2013   #119
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

What I've read (before and now) was that Elway was quoted directly (but I have to paraphrase) as saying that he felt like dying and going to heaven with Shanahan's retooling the WCO in Denver.

Kubiak was the QB in SF that Shanahan brought along to Denver, and being the studious type (that Elway credited him to be), was obviously the one who explained all the little details from the QB's perspective to Elway.

I don't know how much credit Kubiak should get for that, but the results showed that Elway had the most consistent period of his life from then on.
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Old 01-15-2013   #120
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Default Re: Assessment on TJ Yates

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
Exactly, the Shanahans are innovating. They understand that the labor pool is different and are taking action to apply to their playbook.
It's adaptation; the Zone read was adapted for Tebow and Cam Newton at the NFL level, nothing new there.
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