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Old 01-10-2013   #81
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

I think if you're playing Cincinnati & you're moping the floor with them, if you don't get a TD with the three downs you're allotted, you kick the field goal. Makes no sense to "go for it" on 4th down. You're not proving anything other than you couldn't do it in 3.

If you're playing the Patriots & it's 0-0, you take the 3. If you're down by 3, you take the three. If you're up by three, you kick the field goal.

All the while, you are trying to get a TD. but if you don't get it, you kick the field goal, unless you're down by 7 or more & running out of time.
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Old 01-10-2013   #82
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
Combine these thoughts with the recient Kubiak statements about checking down in the red zone and I think its clear that Kubiak doesn't trust Schaub so we try to avoid mistakes as an offensive style.
This is certainly an issue. However, I think it's less about trusting Schaub and more about trusting the offensive line. Schaub seldom can take a step drop and have time in the pocket. Since Schaub doesn't have a gun and doesn't run, 3rd and goal beyond the 10 is a very difficult position for this team.
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Old 01-10-2013   #83
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
I think if you're playing Cincinnati & you're moping the floor with them, if you don't get a TD with the three downs you're allotted, you kick the field goal. Makes no sense to "go for it" on 4th down. You're not proving anything other than you couldn't do it in 3.

If you're playing the Patriots & it's 0-0, you take the 3. If you're down by 3, you take the three. If you're up by three, you kick the field goal.

All the while, you are trying to get a TD. but if you don't get it, you kick the field goal, unless you're down by 7 or more & running out of time.
We agree on this. The issue is Kubiak is playing conservative on 2nd and 3rd down. He's not really going for 6. He's going for 3 from 1st and 10 from the 20. 2 yard completions on 3rd and goal when youre on the 5 are useless. It's safer just to kick on 3rd down. Its the worst of both worlds -- no shot at 6 and risking a turnover
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Old 01-10-2013   #84
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
This is certainly an issue. However, I think it's less about trusting Schaub and more about trusting the offensive line. Schaub seldom can take a step drop and have time in the pocket. Since Schaub doesn't have a gun and doesn't run, 3rd and goal beyond the 10 is a very difficult position for this team.
that's not easy for any team period...but its way more than just a line issue to me...who on this team gets great separation now? Andre can and does, but even he doesn't even create the space he used to be able to create. Everyone else is pretty much a possession receiver.
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Old 01-10-2013   #85
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
that's not easy for any team period...but its way more than just a line issue to me...who on this team gets great separation now? Andre can and does, but even he doesn't even create the space he used to be able to create. Everyone else is pretty much a possession receiver.
Numbers 18 and 86 both have burned the D. The question is, do we have a QB capable of getting it to them?
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Old 01-10-2013   #86
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Porky View Post
Numbers 18 and 86 both have burned the D. The question is, do we have a QB capable of getting it to them?
Every possession wr in the NFL past and present can burn a d from time to time but you can't just count on tricking people or sneaking one by all the time. This team isn't fast or sudden on offense anymore.
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Old 01-10-2013   #87
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

From LZ's Twitter. Hard to win if your QB can't help you in the green zone.

Quote:
Lance Zierlein‏@LanceZierlein

From wks 14-17, Schaub is 13 of 25 for 98 yards, 0 TDs and 2 INTs when attempting passes from between oppon. 39-20 yd line. Hard to win
Quote:
Lance Zierlein‏@LanceZierlein

Know why Texans are bogging down from week 14-17 & kicking FGs? Maybe it has to do w/ Schaub's 28.4 QB Rating from opponents 39-20 yd line
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Old 01-10-2013   #88
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Cool Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
Combine these thoughts with the recient Kubiak statements about checking down in the red zone and I think its clear that Kubiak doesn't trust Schaub so we try to avoid mistakes as an offensive style.
I think you're 100% right. So I either want 4 redzone TD's Sunday or the announcement of post season surgery to prove that you're wrong.

If that's our 'style' and 'strategy' (I think it is) then it makes me angry. Even if we went 14-2 and had homefield I would complain about it.

I have NEVER been a Schaub hater, but WTH happened this year? Was I blind in previous years?
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Old 01-10-2013   #89
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by HOU-TEX View Post
From LZ's Twitter. Hard to win if your QB can't help you in the green zone.
This is what I was saying awhile ago.

For the year though, Schaub wasn't that bad.
He was mediocre.

I haven't got time to figure out exactly what happened between the 40-20 as of late.
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Old 01-10-2013   #90
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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We agree on this. The issue is Kubiak is playing conservative on 2nd and 3rd down. He's not really going for 6. He's going for 3 from 1st and 10 from the 20. 2 yard completions on 3rd and goal when youre on the 5 are useless. It's safer just to kick on 3rd down. Its the worst of both worlds -- no shot at 6 and risking a turnover
This is simply not true.
I had broken down all of Schaub's throws in the redzone in another thread.

The Texans did go for the endzone plenty enough as a percentage of number of pass plays. It's just that we called almost twice as many running plays and we weren't quite as good in that department (until we get to the 3 yard line).

I wished Kubiak had called more passing plays between the 20 and 4 yard line.
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Old 01-10-2013   #91
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by gtexan02 View Post
We agree on this. The issue is Kubiak is playing conservative on 2nd and 3rd down. He's not really going for 6. He's going for 3 from 1st and 10 from the 20. 2 yard completions on 3rd and goal when youre on the 5 are useless. It's safer just to kick on 3rd down. Its the worst of both worlds -- no shot at 6 and risking a turnover
I'll have to pay more attention, because I'm just not seeing this.

Kubiak doesn't have a run play for 3 yards & a different run play for 15. He calls the play & the guys are supposed to get what they're supposed to get.

He calls a pass and there are usually 3 receivers in the pattern. I don't know if I've ever seen a Gary Kubiak designed passing play where all three receivers are within 5 yards of the LOS.
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Old 01-10-2013   #92
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
Every possession wr in the NFL past and present can burn a d from time to time but you can't just count on tricking people or sneaking one by all the time. This team isn't fast or sudden on offense anymore.
Totally agree. I think Kubes feels that with the play action working and the overall offensive design that any WR good enough to be at this level can get open...and sometimes they can....but because he feels that way, he also doesn't want to invest the draft pick or money it takes to get one.

My point was simply that I've lost confidence in our signal caller to execute those plays, and my guess is so has Kubes...and if we do get a guy that can consistently burn defenses and get separation, how many more under-throws will be made? I mean can you get any more open at this level than James Casey? If that is Brady, that's a TD. With Schaub, it's a pick. So what if you can get open if the signal caller can't get it there with any consistency?

I'm not sure why he seems to be regressing? He's like a movie - The curious Case of Matt Schaub, who started the season as a grizzled vet and slowly becomes a rookie...because that is how he is playing.

Anyone got any theories? I'm wondering about the health and pain in that foot myself.
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Old 01-10-2013   #93
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

Something I hadn't seen from the Texans in a LONG ass time in the red zone? Passes to Arian.

That **** was money in 2010 and 11....only saw it once in 2012. It's time to go back to it.
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Old 01-10-2013   #94
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Porky View Post
Totally agree. I think Kubes feels that with the play action working and the overall offensive design that any WR good enough to be at this level can get open...and sometimes they can....but because he feels that way, he also doesn't want to invest the draft pick or money it takes to get one.

My point was simply that I've lost confidence in our signal caller to execute those plays, and my guess is so has Kubes...and if we do get a guy that can consistently burn defenses and get separation, how many more under-throws will be made? I mean can you get any more open at this level than James Casey? If that is Brady, that's a TD. With Schaub, it's a pick. So what if you can get open if the signal caller can't get it there with any consistency?

I'm not sure why he seems to be regressing? He's like a movie - The curious Case of Matt Schaub, who started the season as a grizzled vet and slowly becomes a rookie...because that is how he is playing.

Anyone got any theories? I'm wondering about the health and pain in that foot myself.
perhaps he has hit his plateau. Perhaps both of them have. Schaub can't move, doesn't have a big arm, not real accurate deep, but has the playbook mastered and is good when everything stacks up right. Kubiak knows the system he was taught, but doesn't seem creative enough to step out of it. It's not a dumb and dumber thing...I'm just kinda thinking that we have Richie Kotite coaching the washed up, end-of-his-career Boomer Esiason for the 95 Jets thing going on with our offense. Boomer was a better QB than Schaub ever was, but not when he was with the Jets.
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Old 01-10-2013   #95
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
perhaps he has hit his plateau. Perhaps both of them have. Schaub can't move, doesn't have a big arm, not real accurate deep, but has the playbook mastered and is good when everything stacks up right. Kubiak knows the system he was taught, but doesn't seem creative enough to step out of it. It's not a dumb and dumber thing...I'm just kinda thinking that we have Richie Kotite coaching the washed up, end-of-his-career Boomer Esiason for the 95 Jets thing going on with our offense. Boomer was a better QB than Schaub ever was, but not when he was with the Jets.
Good points. Love your football acumen as always, and yes I think that is an apt comparison.
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Old 01-10-2013   #96
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by ThaShark316 View Post
Something I hadn't seen from the Texans in a LONG ass time in the red zone? Passes to Arian.

That **** was money in 2010 and 11....only saw it once in 2012. It's time to go back to it.
If I remember right we were at 3rd and goal from the 5-10 yard line and threw a short completion to Foster last Saturday. He caught it, gained a yard, and was tackled immediately
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Old 01-10-2013   #97
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
perhaps he has hit his plateau. Perhaps both of them have. Schaub can't move, doesn't have a big arm, not real accurate deep, but has the playbook mastered and is good when everything stacks up right. Kubiak knows the system he was taught, but doesn't seem creative enough to step out of it. It's not a dumb and dumber thing...I'm just kinda thinking that we have Richie Kotite coaching the washed up, end-of-his-career Boomer Esiason for the 95 Jets thing going on with our offense. Boomer was a better QB than Schaub ever was, but not when he was with the Jets.
I disagree with this.

This offense is not the offense Kubes ran in Denver. It's similar. It's got a lot of the same plays. It's based off the same concepts. But Kubiak has added a lot of new wrinkles over the years. He's much more creative with the tight-ends and how he pulls guys. It's not a pure zone blocking scheme all the time now -- it has trap and pull elements now.
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Old 01-10-2013   #98
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

If they take this approach consistently against the Pats Sunday, they'll take the loss and head home.
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Old 01-10-2013   #99
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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I disagree with this.

This offense is not the offense Kubes ran in Denver. It's similar. It's got a lot of the same plays. It's based off the same concepts. But Kubiak has added a lot of new wrinkles over the years. He's much more creative with the tight-ends and how he pulls guys. It's not a pure zone blocking scheme all the time now -- it has trap and pull elements now.
& they added the wham block.

The Patriots used the "wham block" (so termed by John Gruden on MNF) to neutralize Antonio & Watt. The offensive lineman feigns a block, Antonio/Jj feels like they've penetrated the OL, and a TE/WR blindsides him.... seriously deterring his path to the RB.

We did the same thing a couple of times vs Cincinnati to Peko & Atkins. Very affective.
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Old 01-10-2013   #100
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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If they take this approach consistently against the Pats Sunday, they'll take the loss and head home.
In all honesty, I think not taking this approach cost us the Div game last year. It was very uncharacteristic of Kubiak, imo, to press the issue & try to score quick & fast against Baltimore.

According to Bruschi, it was Schaub pressing, trying to "keep up" with Brady that led to him uncharacteristically throwing that Int when the safe throw was underneath.

Gary-ball built a 20 pt lead on several teams this year, with a little help from the defense, we put 43 on the Ravens.

We need to stop trying to be somebody else, stop "trying" to score points & just play the game. Be the best we can & let the game come to us.
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