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Old 01-02-2013   #81
Mr teX
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
All QB's don't underthrow WRs like Schaub. He underthrows more than he overthrows or puts the ball where the WR can catch it in stride. I've watched plenty of football and good QB's aren't consistently underthrowing WR's.... More excuse making...par for the course.
Lol, he underthrew a whole 2 passes this sunday...yeah most qb's aren't consistently doing that...overstate the guys flaws, minimize what he does well..par for the course indeed.
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Old 01-02-2013   #82
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
His arm strength isn't really the issue imo... he's got enough to get it where it needs to be. There were and have been more than a few throws that he made in the colts game and in all of these games that you wouldn't think he could make if his arm strength was the chief issue.

It's his footwork that's the main issue imo. When you're throwing a ball of any kind, that front foot/toe should always be pointed directly at your target..or where you're throwing. with both his ints, his foot placement was off. If you watch guys like Brady and Manning, they're front foot/toe is always pointed straight forward to their target. Another thing he also tends to do is overstride when he throws deep. Mark Sanchez has this issue...Donovan Mcnabb had this issue too.

In any event, Both of these things effect accuracy and can also affect how much "umf" you can get on the ball...

his 1st int, it looks to me he overstrided a little..& looking at the replay of it..i don't think his foot was placed where it should've been either..it wasn't pointed forward to his target that's for sure.

His 2nd int, while he didn't overstride, his front foot just kinda goes off to the side when he's moving forward on the balance-weight transfer..
Where have you been?

The guy has been under throwing long passes since Day 1. DAY ONE.

Long before his injury from Albert Haynesworth, I might add.

He doesn't have the feel for the deep pass. It's always on target (never wide right or wide left), don't get me wrong, but the length of those passes is more often short than anything. Or he has that rare throw that is too far beyond the WR. Rarely has Schaub hit a player in stride. Most of the time, his receivers are slowing down for it.

When Kevin Walter is having to slow down for a deep pass, that's REALLY bad news. Slow WRs having to slow down on deep passes is a very bad thing.

There seems to be a range where Schaub is just unable to gauge how much mustard to put on the pass. He hits those post patterns to OD just fine. Anything with extreme loft under it, and it's like a damn moon shot.
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Old 01-02-2013   #83
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
All QB's don't underthrow WRs like Schaub. He underthrows more than he overthrows or puts the ball where the WR can catch it in stride. I've watched plenty of football and good QB's aren't consistently underthrowing WR's.... More excuse making...par for the course.
That first INT last game really highlights some serious issues with Schaub. He rolled out, felt absolutely NO pressure, had plenty of time, and under-threw the ball for an easy INT.

There is no excuse for a starting NFL QB to not make that throw to a receiver in stride. It should have been a huge gain, even a TD, but instead, it was a clear example that Schaub either made a horrible decision and/or cannot consistently make long throws in stride. Either way, it's a bad sign.
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Old 01-02-2013   #84
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
His arm strength isn't really the issue imo... he's got enough to get it where it needs to be. There were and have been more than a few throws that he made in the colts game and in all of these games that you wouldn't think he could make if his arm strength was the chief issue.

It's his footwork that's the main issue imo. When you're throwing a ball of any kind, that front foot/toe should always be pointed directly at your target..or where you're throwing. with both his ints, his foot placement was off. If you watch guys like Brady and Manning, they're front foot/toe is always pointed straight forward to their target. Another thing he also tends to do is overstride when he throws deep. Mark Sanchez has this issue...Donovan Mcnabb had this issue too.

In any event, Both of these things effect accuracy and can also affect how much "umf" you can get on the ball...

his 1st int, it looks to me he overstrided a little..& looking at the replay of it..i don't think his foot was placed where it should've been either..it wasn't pointed forward to his target that's for sure.

His 2nd int, while he didn't overstride, his front foot just kinda goes off to the side when he's moving forward on the balance-weight transfer..
The foot injury is what's causing his inaccuracy problems. Along with his inability to avoid the rush. Schaub never has been accurate on deep passes.
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Old 01-02-2013   #85
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Where have you been?

The guy has been under throwing long passes since Day 1. DAY ONE.

Long before his injury from Albert Haynesworth, I might add.

He doesn't have the feel for the deep pass. It's always on target (never wide right or wide left), don't get me wrong, but the length of those passes is more often short than anything. Or he has that rare throw that is too far beyond the WR. Rarely has Schaub hit a player in stride. Most of the time, his receivers are slowing down for it.

When Kevin Walter is having to slow down for a deep pass, that's REALLY bad news. Slow WRs having to slow down on deep passes is a very bad thing.

There seems to be a range where Schaub is just unable to gauge how much mustard to put on the pass. He hits those post patterns to OD just fine. Anything with extreme loft under it, and it's like a damn moon shot.
i'm not disputing that..what i'm saying is that his arm strength probably hasn't been the chief cause of these underthrows/overthrows/accuracy issues b/c he's making those same types of throws and other types of throws that make it there just fine... in the same game nonetheless...

The missed TD pass to AJ was about the same length as the 43 yd pass he underthrew to Casey that was intercepted....So was his 2nd int.. 1 was an overthrow, 1 was an underthrow, the other was right on target...

So you have to ask yourself why can't he be consistent with his deep throws? Footwork and throwing mechanics...

that's all im saying.
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Old 01-02-2013   #86
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
That first INT last game really highlights some serious issues with Schaub. He rolled out, felt absolutely NO pressure, had plenty of time, and under-threw the ball for an easy INT.

There is no excuse for a starting NFL QB to not make that throw to a receiver in stride. It should have been a huge gain, even a TD, but instead, it was a clear example that Schaub either made a horrible decision and/or cannot consistently make long throws in stride. Either way, it's a bad sign.
And Kubiak was pretty damn pissed after that one. Face red and was most likely cussing up a storm. I can only imagine what he was saying. Schaub set his feet and launched that. With the way he threw it, I felt that we were about to get a big reception for a TD. Instead, it was an INT.
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Old 01-02-2013   #87
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
i'm not disputing that..what i'm saying is that his arm strength probably hasn't been the chief cause of these underthrows/overthrows/accuracy issues b/c he's making those same types of throws and other types of throws that make it there just fine... in the same game nonetheless...

The missed TD pass to AJ was about the same length as the 43 yd pass he underthrew to Casey that was intercepted....So was his 2nd int.. 1 was an overthrow, 1 was an underthrow, the other was right on target...

So you have to ask yourself why can't he be consistent with his deep throws? Footwork and throwing mechanics...

that's all im saying.
Which begs the question: Why did the front office feel the need to give Matt a new deal only ONE GAME into the 2012 season?

This franchise is goo-goo ga-ga for their QBs. They gave Carr an unbelievable $8 million if for no other reason than to be a nice parting gift on his way out of here. I firmly believe that Bob McNair is trying to run an NFL franchise in ways that are not fiscally sound as it relates to how we damn sure know that normal businesses are operated.

Not at any time would a Bob McNair overpay such an underperforming person in a normal business setting. It almost makes one wonder if he's getting a damn tax write-off for having paid Carr that money. Am I right?

So here we are, AGAIN, watching him do the same thing: Watching him tie the salary cap noose tighter around our team's neck by giving Schaub a new deal so quickly. What a bad, bad mistake. Terrible. Sure, at the time he looked phenomenal and it might have made sense. But geez, it's just 1 game into a 16-game season. And then the post-season awaits too. Why do that? I don't get it.

Bob goes out, gets a proven d-coord for his HC...drafts a whale of a player in JJ Watt...trims the fat by cutting Winston, letting Dreessen and Brisiel walk (bigger paydays elsewhere), re-signs his LT and his RB and his C. And then promptly goes and re-signs an unproven QB who is now tanking hard. HARD.

The Kubiak deal and the Schaub deal are the dual threat to this franchise. Bob still hasn't grown a solid pair of NFL Owner Testicles yet. He let 2011 go to his head, excuse me...no, he let it go to his HEART. And now we're screwed for the next 2 or possibly even 3 years.

It's maddening. The heart will betray you. It doesn't think or compute, and Bob's heart has betrayed him. Again. And we get to feel the residual impact of it. Does he even know this? Does he bother reconciling the books on this issue? I doubt it. It's status quo with those guys. Everything is fine. Nobody is in the paper today for a bad crime. We're in the playoffs! Good guys always end up on top. Blah blah blah.
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Old 01-02-2013   #88
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by GuerillaBlack View Post
And Kubiak was pretty damn pissed after that one. Face red and was most likely cussing up a storm. I can only imagine what he was saying. Schaub set his feet and launched that. With the way he threw it, I felt that we were about to get a big reception for a TD. Instead, it was an INT.
yeah, Kubiak looked pissed and disgusted.

I've seen the replay at least a dozen times, and I just don't get it. Overthrow the receiver, but to have all that time and under-throw when a defender is trailing is just a plain stupid decision in a clutch situation.

That play has absolutely nothing to do with Kubiak (it was a good call) and everything to do with Schaub and his failure to execute the play.

What is really depressing is the continuous highlights of other QBs last weekend hitting guys in stride for scores.
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Old 01-02-2013   #89
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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I believe what he is meaning is it wasn't the Colts that dominated us but mental lapses. The touchdown on the deep seam pattern was a mental lapse by the safety. Not a mano y mano situation. The touchdown on the kickoff return where the guy wasn't even touched because folks didn't maintain their lanes is another mental lapse. On top of this you got the silly penalties as well.

So basically 14 points right there where guys forgot about the mental part of their job. They weren't beat, they beat themselves. It was nothing clever or that took amazing effort on the Colts part. Just took bonehead moments.
Not to mention the two bad throws by Schaub that went to the other team. One was "definitely" a touchdown..... that's another 7 points.

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In the end, it matters little. Colts won and deserved it since they played like they wanted to win where the Texans looked to be going through the motions as if they 'expected' to win instead of fighting for it.
Absolutely & I don't mean to take anything away from the Colts, or Luck. That kid, for the first time, impressed the Fk out of me. Think about it, all the things we tried to do that didn't work, worked for them. The bubble screen to Andre that went for a -3 yards, Luck & Hilton busted a 15 yard play on the same thing. We tried to catch them with a quick snap to pick up a first down.... didn't set long enough, still didn't get the first down. Luck picked up the first down on one play & punked us getting off the field on another. His inflections on his snap count. 3 or more offsides.

But to win at this level, you've got to capitalize on the mistakes of the other team..... they did that. You also have to minimize the mistakes of your own team. They did that as well. They won the game. If we'd have cleaned up our own mistakes, we'd have made it more difficult for them but as it stands, they won it.
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Old 01-02-2013   #90
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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I've seen the replay at least a dozen times, and I just don't get it. Overthrow the receiver, but to have all that time and under-throw when a defender is trailing..
Doesn't really matter, but Davis wasn't trailing Casey. Casey was being covered by a LB. He lost him somewhere in the middle of the field. That corner came off his man & had time to cut under Casey to pick that ball.

In other words, not only did he underthrow it, but he put way to much air under it... or threw it way to late. Had he thrown it earlier, or with less air under it, it would have been a different story. That was a bad throw for many reasons.
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Old 01-02-2013   #91
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

Shaub puts too much air/arc on his deep passes.
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Old 01-02-2013   #92
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Shaub puts too much air/arc on his deep passes.
He does that because he doesn't have the arm to take the air off of his passes.

When you can put velocity on the ball you don't have to put as much air under the ball. It gets to the target faster and it's usually more accurate of a pass...

The weaker your arm the more air you have to put under the ball.
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Old 01-02-2013   #93
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
His arm strength isn't really the issue imo... he's got enough to get it where it needs to be. There were and have been more than a few throws that he made in the colts game and in all of these games that you wouldn't think he could make if his arm strength was the chief issue.

It's his footwork that's the main issue imo. When you're throwing a ball of any kind, that front foot/toe should always be pointed directly at your target..or where you're throwing. with both his ints, his foot placement was off. If you watch guys like Brady and Manning, they're front foot/toe is always pointed straight forward to their target. Another thing he also tends to do is overstride when he throws deep. Mark Sanchez has this issue...Donovan Mcnabb had this issue too.

In any event, Both of these things effect accuracy and can also affect how much "umf" you can get on the ball...

his 1st int, it looks to me he overstrided a little..& looking at the replay of it..i don't think his foot was placed where it should've been either..it wasn't pointed forward to his target that's for sure.

His 2nd int, while he didn't overstride, his front foot just kinda goes off to the side when he's moving forward on the balance-weight transfer..

The strength of a QB's throw is primarily dependent on strength of chest muscles (mostly pec) AND strength of leg muscles transferred to the plant foot. That "repaired" back foot is what a QB relies on for that "umf" you speak of. Whether because of any residual instability of repair following the removal of his hardware, or stretching of the healed ligaments as the season has progressed, or simply from pain or tenderness (very common chronic progressive problem following repair of Lisfranc with fracture, just ask Marcus), any one of these will significantly affect velocity, distance and accuracy. All of these will be a major factor in maintaining "balance." If you are trying to compensate for any of the things I mentioned, you will try to avoid placing stress on the affected areas. This easily compromises the consistency of all aspects of a QB's passing game. When you lose the ability to fully balance in motion using your back foot as main support, you are forced to regain some of that balance with the increased use of that front foot rather than solely allowing it to work for aiming balance. This can easily account for the awkward final positions of his front foot, something I've coincidentally also discussed with several MB members in the past.

Schaub no doubt is wearing a nonyielding full-length orthotic shoe insert or sole to avoid undue stresses on the ball of his foot that would transmit those stresses to the Lisfranc area.......in other words, trying to avoid recreating the forces that led to the injury in the first place.







The fact that this orthotic does not allow the free bending of the ball of the foot joint area, should make it clear that "push off" with his plant foot would require in itself some adjustment to mechanics.

To make it more simple to understand. Fashion a plank of plywood. Stick it in your sneakers. Put a pair of socks on...............but before that, put a small pebble in it near the back end of your instep (arch) to replicate some "discomfort." Feel free to use a larger rock for greater "discomfort." Then tie your laces up tightly. Now go out there, run around, and try passing the football around. You may find that things don't work out too well for you.........and less and less as you are out there longer and longer.
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Old 01-02-2013   #94
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Lol, he underthrew a whole 2 passes this sunday...yeah most qb's aren't consistently doing that...overstate the guys flaws, minimize what he does well..par for the course indeed.
You sound ridiculous.

He underthrew two long balls. How many of those do you think you get a game? How many deep passes like that did he even have? What the hell are you talking about?

And stop acting like this is a one game problem. How long have you been watching the Texans?

Acting like Schaub has all of a sudden started underthrowing deep balls is silly.
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Old 01-02-2013   #95
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
You sound ridiculous.

He underthrew two long balls. How many deep passes like that did he even have? What the hell are you talking about?

And stop acting like this is a one game problem. How long have you been watching the Texans?

Acting like Schaub has all of a sudden started underthrowing deep balls is silly.
The one thing AJ has not done at a HOF level is catch TD passes. Some of that is because he isn't a great natural runner but I think most of it has to do with Schaub's inability to hit him in stride when he is wide open. I think he has missed out on at least 6 more TD's per year just due to this.
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Old 01-02-2013   #96
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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The one thing AJ has not done at a HOF level is catch TD passes. Some of that is because he isn't a great natural runner but I think most of it has to do with Schaub's inability to hit him in stride when he is wide open. I think he has missed out on at least 6 more TD's per year just due to this.

With Carr it was a question of whether or not he'd already been sacked by the time AJ got open and then later a question of whether David was even looking by the time AJ got open.

With Schaub it's been a pretty steady series of passes where Dre hade to wait for the ball and sometimes play cornerback on short notice to break up a pick.
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Old 01-02-2013   #97
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
With Carr it was a question of whether or not he'd already been sacked by the time AJ got open and then later a question of whether David was even looking by the time AJ got open.

With Schaub it's been a pretty steady series of passes where Dre hade to wait for the ball and sometimes play cornerback on short notice to break up a pick.
without Johnson's jump ball skills this offense would be an ugly duckling
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Old 01-02-2013   #98
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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You sound ridiculous.

He underthrew two long balls. How many of those do you think you get a game? How many deep passes like that did he even have? What the hell are you talking about?

And stop acting like this is a one game problem. How long have you been watching the Texans?

Acting like Schaub has all of a sudden started underthrowing deep balls is silly.
WTF are you talking about? He threw 5 long balls the entire game. & unless there's a play that i'm forgetting about, only 1 of them was underthrown.

1 was underthrown to Casey
1 was thrown perfectly to AJ in the end zone that he dropped
1 was overthrown to AJ in the end zone - int
1 was overthrown to Jean on the sideline- barely

the was another thrown deep but it was a pass interference on Davis

That's 1 damn clearly underthrown long pass of 5 on sunday.

& for the record, i never said any damn thing about it being a 1 game thing..He underthrows passes all the time...but so does every qb in the league...Just b/c the WR makes a play on it and comes down with it doesn't mean that they didn't have to slow down for it and adjust...or turn around to catch it doesn't mean it wasn't underthrown.

Someone listening to you would believe every single pass this dude threw was underthrown.

I sound ridiculous? you sound ridiculous...but i get it, that kinda stuff doesn't fit into your nice neat box...
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Old 01-02-2013   #99
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Acting like Schaub has all of a sudden started underthrowing deep balls is silly.
It's been a topic on this board so much that someone found a quote where he says he does that on purpose, giving "his guys" an opportunity to make a play on the ball.

I thought that was the funniest thing I had ever heard, however, someone brought stats showing Matt completes those deep balls more frequently than your "elite" guys.

I still find it laughable, but if those numbers were true (& if I get time, I'll look for it).... maybe he has a point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
I think he has missed out on at least 6 more TD's per year just due to this.
Yeah, I"ve mentioned that before as well. I think you're being cautious with that 6 number though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
without Johnson's jump ball skills this offense would be an ugly duckling
I'd love to join the dump on Schaub/Kubiak thing that's going on right now, but.... we're talking about James Casey being WTF open. Think about that for a minute. We've also seen KDub WTF open as well.... last year, it was Dressen.

None of those guys are barn burners, or precision route runners, yet they get wide open. Matt generally doesn't throw that ball, unless his guy is wide open.

His ball placement, when the guy isn't wide open is so bad, that the defender regularly has a better play on the ball than our guy, so he normally knows to wait until he's got someone wide open.


Just saying.
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Old 01-02-2013   #100
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Default Re: LZ: The offense is very much broken and Kubiak canít rely on Ďthe systemí he has

The Mayan's said that I'd agree with Fiddler right around this time...amazing.
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