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Old 12-21-2012   #21
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
Where did you get idea Bush was coming to Houston? Maybe you should reread my thread? Unless another poster suggested and I missed that.
Misread it, my bad. Should have known better than think you'd have Bush in there.
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Old 12-21-2012   #22
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
Sounds good for Miami, but we're taking the shaft.
Shaft? I'll take it and ten more.

2nd round: #43 CB Desmond Trufant, # 54 WR Cordarrelle Patterson, # 55 (Miami #77 & our 5) RB Ed Lacy and # 64 (ours) NT Sylvester Williams

3rd round: (Miami # 82) Qb Landry Jones, (ours) RT Brennan Williams, ILB Andrew Jackson (mario)

5th round: A (Dreesen) OLB Trevardo Williams 11.5 sacks B (Briesel) TE Michael Williams

6th round: DE Kapron Lewis- Moore

7th round: A. CB/S Darrius Slay, B (Jason Allen) OLB Quanterus Smith 12.5 sacks BEFORE injury which should be healed by TC. Even if not carry him IR one year. Worth risk.
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Old 12-21-2012   #23
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Sounds good for Miami, but we're taking the shaft.
You obviously under estimate the value of draft picks. Especially second and third round ones. Which is why Miami would never do it. Well that and the fact that Tate's injury history makes him too much of a risk.
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Old 12-22-2012   #24
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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They signed Reggie Bush didn't they? Tate's injury was a hamstring which is significant but not a knee for example or ACL. In 2011 he had 942 yds at 5.4 avg. That is about what Bush will do this year but at lesser avg. The "system" will be similar to Houston's ZBS as Mike Sherman runs a derivitive. Wasn't Bush called a system back when he came out?
Do you even know what they traded to get Bush? A guy nobody cares about and they swapped 6th round picks with the Saints. Then they got Bush to sign a 2 year extension as part of the deal. That's hardly a commitment in terms of trade assets. Now you think they will just let Bush walk, and spend a bunch of high round picks on a guy who has had a worse career and injury history than Bush when they traded for him? No way Jose. No chance of this happening. If anything they might give up a 4th alone for him, but that's about it. They aren't that needy of a team, and RBs tend to be low value commodities around the league.

Also, you know they spent a 2nd round pick on Daniel Thomas in 2011 and a 4th on Lamar Miller in 2012, right?
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Old 12-22-2012   #25
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Texans first round + Tate + our 4th for Miami's second round (#43 & #54) and Miami's third round ( #77 and # 82)?
Basically we're giving our first to Miami for their 2 mid-round 2nds & a 4th.

We'll be giving up Ben Tate for two thirds.
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Old 12-22-2012   #26
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Do you even know what they traded to get Bush? A guy nobody cares about and they swapped 6th round picks with the Saints. Then they got Bush to sign a 2 year extension as part of the deal. That's hardly a commitment in terms of trade assets. Now you think they will just let Bush walk, and spend a bunch of high round picks on a guy who has had a worse career and injury history than Bush when they traded for him? No way Jose. No chance of this happening. If anything they might give up a 4th alone for him, but that's about it. They aren't that needy of a team, and RBs tend to be low value commodities around the league.

Also, you know they spent a 2nd round pick on Daniel Thomas in 2011 and a 4th on Lamar Miller in 2012, right?
^^^^
This

BB, when did you become ridiculous trad scenario guy?

Tate is worth a 3-4th rd pick due to his lengthy injury history. As of right now Bush is the better RB. Tate is worth more to the Texans than his trade low trade value is worth at this moment.
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Old 12-22-2012   #27
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

To be fair, bb said after a strong showing from Tate in the play-offs.

Something Bush has not done despite the opportunity.
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Old 12-22-2012   #28
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Do you even know what they traded to get Bush? A guy nobody cares about and they swapped 6th round picks with the Saints. Then they got Bush to sign a 2 year extension as part of the deal. That's hardly a commitment in terms of trade assets. Now you think they will just let Bush walk, and spend a bunch of high round picks on a guy who has had a worse career and injury history than Bush when they traded for him? No way Jose. No chance of this happening. If anything they might give up a 4th alone for him, but that's about it. They aren't that needy of a team, and RBs tend to be low value commodities around the league.

Also, you know they spent a 2nd round pick on Daniel Thomas in 2011 and a 4th on Lamar Miller in 2012, right?
I think fans and teams remember picks only when the can say wow, we got Myers for a 6? or grumble when they give a high pick that fails. Part of the reason I think Miami would want Tate is he is 6'0 205 & 27 & should want that big payoff on a final deal. Tate is 5'11 215 & 24 YOA. Very comparable & Tate comes from a ZBS & could hit field day one. Dolphins GM thinks "hey we hit pay dirt with Bush why not a younger guy"?

Since 2006, Bush has ran for more than 600 yds only last two seasons.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3600/reggie-bush

Tate has had to play behind Foster & showed what he could do in 2011. Surely you guys remember the hope on this MB that Tate would be able to take some of the reps off Arian preseason and prehammy? If a healthy Tate can return to his 2011 stats as a starter for Miami he would be a better back than Bush.

Do you even know what Bush's first two season stats were? 2006: 565 yds 3.6
& 2007: 581 3.7. He dropped the next three years.

I think Miami would make a deal for much less with Tate who would love to be a starter & would work a deal in this off season.

Daniel Thomas? The guy that was injured his rookie year (like Tate) and has been less than mediocre this season? Daniel Thomas? Who just went to IR
with a knee injury?

Miller? The 21 yoa should have remained in school but went for the cash. He can replace Thomas but not Bush.

RBs may be a low commodity but Miami needs to make a push now and give Tannehill some protection. Get him a WR like Keenan with first pick & put Bush's money towards Jake Long (if healthy) or use Texans first for his replacement.

Your argument did not persuade me. lol
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Old 12-22-2012   #29
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
^^^^
This

BB, when did you become ridiculous trad scenario guy?

Tate is worth a 3-4th rd pick due to his lengthy injury history. As of right now Bush is the better RB. Tate is worth more to the Texans than his trade low trade value is worth at this moment.
ST when did you become the don't read the entire thread dude? As Fiddler pointed out, I said the trade would happen only if Tate is healthy and does well from now to end of season. To be fair, Tate missed entire rookie year but came back next season with 15 games 942 @5.4.
He has played in 9 of 14 games & should play tomorrow. I doubt that scares many coaches. especially if he breaks 5.4 rest of year, healthy.

As of right now Bush is better back but not necessarily the better choice for Miami next season as he should demand big $ for final contract. That has to be considered also.
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Old 12-22-2012   #30
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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I think fans and teams remember picks only when the can say wow, we got Myers for a 6? or grumble when they give a high pick that fails. Part of the reason I think Miami would want Tate is he is 6'0 205 & 27 & should want that big payoff on a final deal. Tate is 5'11 215 & 24 YOA. Very comparable & Tate comes from a ZBS & could hit field day one. Dolphins GM thinks "hey we hit pay dirt with Bush why not a younger guy"?

Since 2006, Bush has ran for more than 600 yds only last two seasons.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3600/reggie-bush

Tate has had to play behind Foster & showed what he could do in 2011. Surely you guys remember the hope on this MB that Tate would be able to take some of the reps off Arian preseason and prehammy? If a healthy Tate can return to his 2011 stats as a starter for Miami he would be a better back than Bush.

Do you even know what Bush's first two season stats were? 2006: 565 yds 3.6
& 2007: 581 3.7. He dropped the next three years.

I think Miami would make a deal for much less with Tate who would love to be a starter & would work a deal in this off season.

Daniel Thomas? The guy that was injured his rookie year (like Tate) and has been less than mediocre this season? Daniel Thomas? Who just went to IR
with a knee injury?

Miller? The 21 yoa should have remained in school but went for the cash. He can replace Thomas but not Bush.

RBs may be a low commodity but Miami needs to make a push now and give Tannehill some protection. Get him a WR like Keenan with first pick & put Bush's money towards Jake Long (if healthy) or use Texans first for his replacement.

Your argument did not persuade me. lol
Why on earth are you looking at Bush's 2006/07 stats for comparison? Why are you leaving out the 1150 yards of receiving he had in a pass happy offense? Why are you ignoring his production IN Miami the past two years? Are you really that entrenched on this idea that you're willing to ignore the relevant info? Bush has been good for Miami, and I expect them to re-sign him for a decent amount.

Bush was an oft injured guy with a lot of talent who was never a feature back in New Orleans. Tate could be a similar story, but the fact is nobody is giving up a buttload of picks for him. Bush basically cost them nothing and came at a reasonable salary, it was a low-risk move. The trade you are throwing out there is a high-risk for Miami, but it's awesome for Houston. Try taking this idea over to a Dolphins forum and posting it, see what they say. Link it back here and we can all see what happens.
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Old 12-23-2012   #31
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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AT, as stated in my thread I would trade my own 3 & 5 for a second to draft Lacy. I would be willing to go Foster/Lacy/Grimes or another UDFA if Grimes does not return.
Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to this. IMO, as a team that in 2013 will still consider itself a Superbowl contender trading a low-cost veteran who if healthy has proven to work in the Texans system makes no practical sense. The move would be to have Foster, tate, and a mid-round rookie to replace Tate when he does cost too much after 2013 season. Lacy is good solid prospect, but I personally would not try to rely on a rookie who projects nice player, when the team already has a solid player in salary cap football.
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Old 12-23-2012   #32
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Why on earth are you looking at Bush's 2006/07 stats for comparison? Why are you leaving out the 1150 yards of receiving he had in a pass happy offense? Why are you ignoring his production IN Miami the past two years? Are you really that entrenched on this idea that you're willing to ignore the relevant info? Bush has been good for Miami, and I expect them to re-sign him for a decent amount.

Bush was an oft injured guy with a lot of talent who was never a feature back in New Orleans. Tate could be a similar story, but the fact is nobody is giving up a buttload of picks for him. Bush basically cost them nothing and came at a reasonable salary, it was a low-risk move. The trade you are throwing out there is a high-risk for Miami, but it's awesome for Houston. Try taking this idea over to a Dolphins forum and posting it, see what they say. Link it back here and we can all see what happens.
My thought is that we should keep in mind comparable years in two players careers. I take same approach when folks knock Newton. When you compare him with D Brown early, Derek looks very good. I also think if Long is healthy, he will command a huge salary especially if franchised (over $15m I think). Will Miami pay both? Tate's healthy year in 2011 compares with Bush's 2012. Why should Bush settle for "decent"? Foster is on a SB type team, Bush isn't and it is his last prime deal. If Tate pluses out this season, I would rather have him than Bush (younger and cheaper and raring to be "the guy"). Anyone have stats on Tate this game. Did not look like he got many.

You keep saying "butt load of picks for Tate" which is not actually accurate. Don't leave out the first and fourth round they get. As someone (76?) pointed out upstream, it is like Tate and a 4th for two thirds. I think that would be fairly close IF Tate ends strong.
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Old 12-23-2012   #33
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to this. IMO, as a team that in 2013 will still consider itself a Superbowl contender trading a low-cost veteran who if healthy has proven to work in the Texans system makes no practical sense. The move would be to have Foster, tate, and a mid-round rookie to replace Tate when he does cost too much after 2013 season. Lacy is good solid prospect, but I personally would not try to rely on a rookie who projects nice player, when the team already has a solid player in salary cap football.
Understood and I pondered that. We have Tate signed only for 2013. I'm thinking he wants Foster $ as he said that right after Arian got his new deal. Unfortunately for Tate, his hamstring might be costing him. At least he has one more season. In your scenario and I don't necessarily disagree it will go down that way, Texans use Tate cheap 2013 $575,000 then kick him loose unless he signs a bargain deal.

A healthy Tate with a good end to this season has more value to a team like Miami as a cheap starter (with an extended deal) than to Houston as a backup IF Tate accepts that role. I think he is gone in FA.
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Old 12-25-2012   #34
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Understood and I pondered that. We have Tate signed only for 2013. I'm thinking he wants Foster $ as he said that right after Arian got his new deal. Unfortunately for Tate, his hamstring might be costing him. At least he has one more season. In your scenario and I don't necessarily disagree it will go down that way, Texans use Tate cheap 2013 $575,000 then kick him loose unless he signs a bargain deal.

A healthy Tate with a good end to this season has more value to a team like Miami as a cheap starter (with an extended deal) than to Houston as a backup IF Tate accepts that role. I think he is gone in FA.
As you pointed out, Tate has no bargaining power to command "Foster $". One good year (and a piece of another) out of three won't get him a Foster-type contract.

I could see trading Tate to Atlanta because they should be looking for a Michael Turner replacement. Maybe Arizona or Detroit since they could definitely use a boost to their running games.

I'm curious as to why you singled out Miami...??
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Old 12-25-2012   #35
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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As you pointed out, Tate has no bargaining power to command "Foster $". One good year (and a piece of another) out of three won't get him a Foster-type contract.
Keep in mind he prefaced this with a strong play off performance from Tate.
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Old 12-25-2012   #36
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Keep in mind he prefaced this with a strong play off performance from Tate.
Okay, let's say that happens. My other question still stands unanswered; why Miami? Seems like there are other teams with a more dire need at RB. We might get more out of them than Miami. They still seem good with Reggie Bush. Like I said, Arizona and Detroit pop immediately to mind when I think of teams who could stand a running game boost. And we could probably get more out of Arizona (see Kevin Kolb deal )
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Old 12-25-2012   #37
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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As you pointed out, Tate has no bargaining power to command "Foster $". One good year (and a piece of another) out of three won't get him a Foster-type contract.

I could see trading Tate to Atlanta because they should be looking for a Michael Turner replacement. Maybe Arizona or Detroit since they could definitely use a boost to their running games.

I'm curious as to why you singled out Miami...??
Dolphins have 2 seconds and 2 thirds and need to make a bang in off season imo. Bush is a FA with probably one last contract to set him up. Tate is a similar back with OC that runs a similar style to Texans. Miami looks at how Bush was successful after injuries & Tate could be the same. Miami has a young QB that needs some options like a WR @ #14, keeping an RB like Bush that not only runs but can catch. A free agent tackle who if healthy will command big bucks soaking up cap space. Tate's cheap final year in '13 gives Miami a good bit of leeway over a re-signed Bush. If Jake Long cannot come back, having Houston's first would be sweet for them. Reggie is in his last year now.

Atlanta a SB contender will not have the same urgency to make a good deal with us.
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Old 12-25-2012   #38
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Miami is not trading for Ben Tate. No one is.

Not unless he tears it up in the play offs which isn't likely.
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Old 12-25-2012   #39
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Miami is not trading for Ben Tate. No one is.

Not unless he tears it up in the play offs which isn't likely.
Tate has the opportunity to tear it up. It is on him. As I said in original post, dealing Tate depends on his productivity. It may not be likely but he was playing well before the hamstring so it is not impossible.
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Old 12-26-2012   #40
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Default Re: Trade with Miami?

Miami might be more inclined to trade for Foster (net a 1st or couple 2nd's)
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