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Old 12-17-2012   #21
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
Solid post Hervoyel. I agree with everything you said, except, I believe that person has to be Matt Schaub. No two ways about it.

He's the QB, he runs the offense. I don't mean that he needs to be Tom Brady. I don't think he needs to run up the stats. He needs to be the leader.

I know, you'll have some guys coming in here & saying to a T the guys in the locker room point towards Matt Schaub being the leader of the offense, but he needs to take it to another level.

When we need a play, Matt should be able to demand it from his guys & they should deliver. If that's not happening, he's not the guy we need.

He's not elite, we know that. He's not clutch, we know that. He's not athletic, we know that. He doesn't have the strongest arm in the league, we know that. For him to be the guy to keep us in Super Bowl contention year in & year out, Matt has to be the kind of leader we see in the great QBs.

It's obvious when you look at Young, Montana, Aikman, Brady, Manning. He doesn't have to yell at the players on the field, those guys may have done that, but that's not what made them great leaders.

Is Schaub the leader of offense? Sure. Is he a great leader?

I think we're about to find out.
This passage right here is funny. In 1 breath you acknowledge that he isn't elite which all of us in here agree with im sure. But virtually everything you list after that is exactly what makes the elite qbs in the league......well......elite.

You can't have it both ways..he's either elite or he isn't & im sure you're not going to argue that he is elite.........................are you?
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Old 12-17-2012   #22
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

People would be freaking out today if they tried to throw and it got picked. They'd be screaming what an idiot Kubiak is for not playing the percentages and taking the easy points of a gimme FG.
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Old 12-17-2012   #23
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
People would be freaking out today if they tried to throw and it got picked. They'd be screaming what an idiot Kubiak is for not playing the percentages and taking the easy points of a gimme FG.
To be honest, I used to question his play call, too.

But when I had a chance to really study everything, I found myself an idiot for the most part.

I still question some of his calls, but I don't jump too quickly to a conclusion hardly anymore.
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Old 12-17-2012   #24
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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As a rule, it doesn't bother me. Like any rule, however, it should always be breakable. There are times, like the first FG of the game yesterday, when you take the FG and don't look back. I get the frustration on that series, because it's been building in fans for years. But it's absolutely correct to take the FG. What bothers me about the mindset is that it seems to have removed any thought of even TRYING at times. If it's 3rd and long, there are plays you can run that are reasonable in their risk vs. reward that actually give a chance to accomplish something. A 3rd and long draw play is simply giving up. That's the right move sometimes, but not to the point that Kubiak and Schaub do it.

At the end of it all, I get the feeling that Kubiak is so much a control freak that he won't entrust his QB and offense to take a shot. Whether he can trust them or not, this is the team that he put together. So if he thinks he can't trust them to take a shot at the end zone without turning it over, then why the hell did he choose players he can't trust?
Except there was plenty times in yesterday's game where we were third & long and not only did we take a chance, we converted.

And I don't think he doesn't trust them. I think he understands the pulse of the team. I need to see that series again, but I'm sure the two plays that pushed us back to 3rd & goal from the 15 were pretty bad. When the offense has too many bad plays close together, he will turtle up & I don't know if that's a bad thing.
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Old 12-17-2012   #25
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Cool Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
Except there was plenty times in yesterday's game where we were third & long and not only did we take a chance, we converted.

And I don't think he doesn't trust them. I think he understands the pulse of the team. I need to see that series again, but I'm sure the two plays that pushed us back to 3rd & goal from the 15 were pretty bad. When the offense has too many bad plays close together, he will turtle up & I don't know if that's a bad thing.
For the OP, I am ONLY referring to the endzone. Schaub said it very matter of factly - kind of 'you're Les Miles' or 'Pete Carroll' if you do anything other than hand off and kick for 3.

My questions is not necesarrily on that one play, but for the entire season is that kind of coaching/attitude part of our redzone problems? Is there reason for concern if we plan to take that to the playoffs?
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Old 12-17-2012   #26
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

When is the last time this team lost a game it led in the second half? It's been a very long time. These are good decisions.

By the way, they do take chances when needed. For instance, at 23-17, the Texans converted a 3rd and 15 to AJ for 17 yards yesterday.

Late in the Denver game, we were up 6 pts with about 2 minutes to go... On 3rd and 4 (or so), we converted the first on a pass to AJ- instead of running the ball to keep the clock moving.
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Old 12-17-2012   #27
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

I wouldn't mind this with a rookie QB but I wish we'd take a shot in these spots with Schaub, he can always just chuck it out the back of the endzone.
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Old 12-17-2012   #28
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Cool Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
When is the last time this team lost a game it led in the second half? It's been a very long time. These are good decisions.

By the way, they do take chances when needed. For instance, at 23-17, the Texans converted a 3rd and 15 to AJ for 17 yards yesterday.

Late in the Denver game, we were up 6 pts with about 2 minutes to go... On 3rd and 4 (or so), we converted the first on a pass to AJ- instead of running the ball to keep the clock moving.
Again, endzone only. Schaub said this specifically about the shortened field when you're on/at the goal line.
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Old 12-17-2012   #29
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
People would be freaking out today if they tried to throw and it got picked. They'd be screaming what an idiot Kubiak is for not playing the percentages and taking the easy points of a gimme FG.
Yeah, Kubiak has a pretty good record of coaching with the lead and in close games. I'm not saying there's never been a large lead that was surrendered, but there haven't been many, and in the last two years we're 9-2 in games decided by one score (8 points) or less. I don't know this for a fact, but I'm guessing that's the best percentage in the NFL over that period. Yeah, part of that is because of what has been described as "turtling", but in the last two seasons (32 games counting playoff games), there's been one time where we had a double-digit lead and didn't end up winning the game - that was when we took a 10-0 lead on the Saints last season and ended up losing 40-33. During this period, we've never lost a game where we led by 11 or more points.

Yeah, maybe we have weaknesses and areas that need improvement, and maybe the play calling seems conservative and risk averse. And maybe - just maybe - those two things are not unrelated.
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Old 12-17-2012   #30
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
To be honest, I used to question his play call, too.

But when I had a chance to really study everything, I found myself an idiot for the most part.

I still question some of his calls, but I don't jump too quickly to a conclusion hardly anymore.
I'm not going to lie. I wanted him to go for a TD on that play, as well.

However, I did not get pissed off when they settled for 3. I understand percentages and the attitude of depending on your defense, even when they have shown some signs of not being too dependable lately.

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Yeah, Kubiak has a pretty good record of coaching with the lead and in close games. I'm not saying there's never been a large lead that was surrendered, but there haven't been many, and in the last two years we're 9-2 in games decided by one score (8 points) or less. Yeah, part of that is because of what has been described as "turtling", but in the last two seasons (32 games counting playoff games), there's been one time where we had a double-digit lead and didn't end up winning the game - that was when we took a 10-0 lead on the Saints last season and ended up losing 40-33. During this period, we've never lost a game where we led by 11 or more points.

Yeah, maybe we have weaknesses and areas that need improvement, and maybe the play calling seems conservative and risk averse. And maybe - just maybe - those two things are not unrelated.
I heard something awhile back on local radio that indicated Kubiak had learned this conservative style from Bill Walsh. Kubiak is certainly not the first HC to play percentages and try to protect a lead, and he won't be the last.
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Old 12-17-2012   #31
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Yankee_In_TX View Post
For the OP, I am ONLY referring to the endzone. Schaub said it very matter of factly - kind of 'you're Les Miles' or 'Pete Carroll' if you do anything other than hand off and kick for 3.

My questions is not necesarrily on that one play, but for the entire season is that kind of coaching/attitude part of our redzone problems? Is there reason for concern if we plan to take that to the playoffs?
Nope, there has been plenty of time when Kubiak said we need to go get that one yard no matter that the Defense stacks it up.

We've converted plenty of them.

Like a professional gambler, you go with the odds, with an occasional twist here and there.

Stay in the game, it gives you the best percentage to win the tournament.
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Old 12-17-2012   #32
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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This passage right here is funny. In 1 breath you acknowledge that he isn't elite which all of us in here agree with im sure. But virtually everything you list after that is exactly what makes the elite qbs in the league......well......elite.

You can't have it both ways..he's either elite or he isn't & im sure you're not going to argue that he is elite.........................are you?
I'm saying he doesn't have the physical attributes that made those players great/elite. But he's going to have to have their leadership.
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Old 12-17-2012   #33
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I'm not going to lie. I wanted him to go for a TD on that play, as well.

However, I did not get pissed off when they settled for 3. I understand percentages and the attitude of depending on your defense, even when they have shown some signs of not being too dependable lately.



I heard something awhile back on local radio that indicated Kubiak had learned this conservative style from Bill Walsh. Kubiak is certainly not the first HC to play percentages and try to protect a lead, and he won't be the last.
Neither Walsh nor Shannahan are the gambling style.

Heck, Walsh didn't even allow Montana much freedom in his first five years.

DB, MSR, as usual.
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Old 12-17-2012   #34
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Solid post Hervoyel. I agree with everything you said, except, I believe that person has to be Matt Schaub. No two ways about it.

He's the QB, he runs the offense. I don't mean that he needs to be Tom Brady. I don't think he needs to run up the stats. He needs to be the leader.

I know, you'll have some guys coming in here & saying to a T the guys in the locker room point towards Matt Schaub being the leader of the offense, but he needs to take it to another level.

When we need a play, Matt should be able to demand it from his guys & they should deliver. If that's not happening, he's not the guy we need.

He's not elite, we know that. He's not clutch, we know that. He's not athletic, we know that. He doesn't have the strongest arm in the league, we know that. For him to be the guy to keep us in Super Bowl contention year in & year out, Matt has to be the kind of leader we see in the great QBs.

It's obvious when you look at Young, Montana, Aikman, Brady, Manning. He doesn't have to yell at the players on the field, those guys may have done that, but that's not what made them great leaders.

Is Schaub the leader of offense? Sure. Is he a great leader?

I think we're about to find out.
I wonder how many teams would try to seek out and draft their franchise QB
based on those qualifications........has to make you think.......and now has got to leave you praying that we go into the playoffs with that last characteristic not only present, but strong enough to overcome all the other admitted "deficiencies."
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Old 12-17-2012   #35
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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I wonder how many teams would try to seek out and draft their franchise QB
based on those qualifications........has to make you think.......and now has got to leave you praying that we go into the playoffs with that last characteristic not only present, but strong enough to overcome all the other admitted "deficiencies."
If this offense was clicking like it was last year before Schaub got hurt, would you?

Then how many teams have started the season 12-2 & been in a position to get that franchise QB?

As far as the draft goes, I think we should continue to collect picks for the next couple of years until we have enough capital to move up & get our guy without hurting our future.

Yates doesn't run this offense as well as Schaub & I have no idea how Case would do, but I think we'd hold our head above water with them, if our Young OL starts to dominate next year like we did last year. Not that I want either guy to replace Schaub. Just saying if he doesn't complete next season, we'll be all right.
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Old 12-17-2012   #36
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

Ok, just watched the series that ended with the draw on 3rd & goal from the 15.

It was our first drive of the 2nd half, started at 13:53 in the 3rd. Very nice drives, heavy on the run game. Saw a little Tate, a little Posey (run blocking). Foster gets the ball to the 8 yard line.
1st & goal, Myers is blown up, backed into Foster in the backfield. LeStar Jean, worthless block on the backside. Foster stopped for a 1 yard loss.
2nd & goal from the 9. Play action, Schaub getting ready to throw. Freeny blows past Brown, Redding splits Newton & Jones, meet at the QB loss of 6
3rd & goal from the 15. We run the draw, Foster weaves through traffic, is stopped at the 8
So there is three plays back to back to back where someone or a few someones screwed the pooch. Instead of taking a chance on a 4th mistake, he goes with the safe play. The draw.

I'm convinced if we go back to look at every situation where we run the draw on 3rd & forever, it is because we have a string of mistakes leading up to it.

I just don't think we're as talented on offense as we need to be to commit mistake after mistake & be able to overcome it. I'm sure that is why Kubiak calls the game the way he does.

In 2008 & 2009, even 2010 we've seen him take chances & these same situations turn real ugly, real fast.
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Old 12-17-2012   #37
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

Nothing but speculation on my part: Kubiak has a long-term QB project in the works all the time. He never stops looking for the next Houston Texans starting QB. I think when he finds a (late round/UDFA) guy he wants to take a long look at it he brings them in and starts working with them. When that guy stops absorbing information or demonstrates that he's not able to do what he needs to then Kubiak moves on to the next one. Schaub's eventual successor will most likely be somebody we pick up like this and who sticks. Could be Yates or Keenum if he can learn it and do it, could be someone else I think that for Kubiak this is as much his hobby as it is his job.
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Old 12-17-2012   #38
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
I'm saying he doesn't have the physical attributes that made those players great/elite. But he's going to have to have their leadership.
How good you are as a leader is often enhanced by what you have accomplished.

Last night Tom Brady's antics were characterized by Collinsworth & company as him being "fiery" and "competitive". Why? b/c he has 3 SB rings & a couple of MVP's.

Now, Jay Cutler/ Phillip Rivers do many of the same things that Brady did last night but both are seen by many as petulant whiny little children...why? the only logical answer is b/c they haven't won anything of significance.

So my question to you is what makes you think that Schaub's coaches & teammates don't think that he has that elite leadership you're speaking of? B/c you could argue his even-kiel attitude is the very definition of what an elite leader is supposed to be. It was the defining characteristic of tons of qb leaders over the years, namely Joe Montana of course.
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Old 12-17-2012   #39
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
Nothing but speculation on my part: Kubiak has a long-term QB project in the works all the time. He never stops looking for the next Houston Texans starting QB. I think when he finds a (late round/UDFA) guy he wants to take a long look at it he brings them in and starts working with them. When that guy stops absorbing information or demonstrates that he's not able to do what he needs to then Kubiak moves on to the next one. Schaub's eventual successor will most likely be somebody we pick up like this and who sticks. Could be Yates or Keenum if he can learn it and do it, could be someone else I think that for Kubiak this is as much his hobby as it is his job.
I tend to agree with you. Like having a hobby such as radio controlled planes..........if one crashes, you can try to repair it.......or just throw it away and get yourself another.
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Old 12-17-2012   #40
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Default Re: "You take the 3 points and move on"

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Arm strength has 0 to do with why we don't throw in the red zone. It's b/c the field is shorter, defenders are in closer proximity than they normally are, which makes them a little more agressive driving on short crossing routes & curls, def coordinators are less afraid of being burned if they choose to blitz..
People don't blitz on passing plays all that often in the redzone. It makes much more sense to sit back in a zone and force the QB to throw into a tight window. If he tries to run it, you have people looking at him.

QB's that can move well and put pressure on the defense with their legs and/or arm tend to have a lot of RED ZONE success.

And I disagree that arm strength doesn't have anything to do with it. IMO it has A LOT to do with it. You said it yourself...The windows are smaller. Arm strength becomes more apparent in shorter spaces. Guys with guns can zip balls into tight spaces on a regular basis. Having some mobility also helps because it makes defenders abandon their zones to stop the QB from running.

Schaub doesn't have either one of those attributes going for him and that's why he's never been a really good Red Zone QB.
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