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Old 11-29-2012   #161
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

I think there are other factors involved here.
First of, the level of QB play had increased for us this year.

Last year, we only faced one QB that is difficult to put pressure on in all 16 games; that was Brees.

This year, we've already faces 3 in Manning, Rodgers, and Stafford.

Last year we also faced some bad QB like Gabbert (twice).
Even Gabbert this year is "much" better than last year.

We saw an old K Collins who was never mobile to start with;
Big Ben is known to keep the ball longer than he should;
Campbell is a wash with the combo of himself and Cutler this year, not even counting the condition of the field.

Even Sanchez is a mobile QB, more than the other QBs we faced last year that has not been mentioned.
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Old 11-29-2012   #162
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

Secondly, we need to realize that it always take a little longer for the outside pass rush to get to the QB.

With JJo not playing up to par or missing game/plays here and there and McCain a mere shell of himself, it's harder on the edge rushers.

On top of that, the coverage on the second level is not as good as last year with Mecco and Cushing.

Also, with Cushing as The Enforcer, the QB would get a hit here or there, or the pass protection needs to account for him more than with any of the current LB that we have.

Every little thing adds up.
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Old 11-29-2012   #163
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Well, the problem here is that Watt got to the QB in less than 1-1/2 second.
Let's say that Watt is a more normal DE who only push the pocket, or in this case, he beat his man to the outside to force the QB up the pocket.
Barwin would have met Stafford in less than 2 secs; which is plenty good for an outside rusher. Barwin had beat his man to the inside.
There were plenty of times Watt did not get to the QB. Those are the "opportunities" I'm talking about.
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Old 11-29-2012   #164
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I think there are other factors involved here.
First of, the level of QB play had increased for us this year.
If they were getting the ball out quickly, I could agree with you. But that's simply not the case, We're watching these guys sit in the pocket for a long, long time. Then we chase them out of the pocket (Rogers) & he still throws a strike.

Not much we can do about Rogers being accurate on the run. But we should have pass rushers who are athletic enough to get him once in a while or at least make it a difficult pass. The guys chasing him were so far away that I don't believe they affected the throw much if at all.
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Old 11-29-2012   #165
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

the problem seems fairly simple to me, we're not winning our 1v1 matchups. that's the primary focus of wade's defense, to create as many 1v1's as possible and allow your players to play fast and win those battles. that's not happening on the line or from our blitzing linebackers.
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Old 11-29-2012   #166
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

One figure that we can look at is the real defensive QB rating from Cold Hard Football Facts.

Through week 10, we were ranked 2nd, same as we ended up after the regular season.

We dropped to 4th after the Jags game and 5th after the Lions game.

However, the drop in week 11 was due to the back end; the pass rush was actually tremendous; I will have some numbers later on.

The slight drop in week 12 was also due to the back end; we didn't have a tremendous pass rush, but it was far from lacking.
If only it could have come sooner.
But with a good QB like Stafford, you have to punch him in the mouth before the dosage takes affect.
He still didn't make any mistake but we were able to make him feel the pressure from the 4th quarter on.
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Old 11-29-2012   #167
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
If they were getting the ball out quickly, I could agree with you. But that's simply not the case, We're watching these guys sit in the pocket for a long, long time. Then we chase them out of the pocket (Rogers) & he still throws a strike.

Not much we can do about Rogers being accurate on the run. But we should have pass rushers who are athletic enough to get him once in a while or at least make it a difficult pass. The guys chasing him were so far away that I don't believe they affected the throw much if at all.
Barwin alone barely missed 2 sacks; with another QB not among the top in escapability, it would have been a different story.

We have to compare them to a certain standard; and that was the one from last year.
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Old 11-29-2012   #168
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

Here are the "official" numbers from NFL.com (using Stats, Inc. - Elias Sports Bureau).

2 sacks, 10 QBHs, 4 passes batted down
16 out of 39 plays (35 passes, 2 sacks & 2 scrambles).
41%

I am not sure what the QBH number stands for (whether it was Hits, or Hurries, or both.)

But I can assure you that the number of times the pressure forced the QB into an incompletion is even higher (still count as a disruption.)

41% is an insane number by itself already.

Last year, we finished first in Profootball Focus ranking in QB disruption at some 33% of the time.
I forgot where the link is, but no other team was even close to that.

The 41% figure would have been higher if I count total disruption that caused an incompletion.

The problem in the Jags game was the back end (mainly the secondary, but also the LB - Dobbins took a bad angle and missed the tackle on the same play that KJ missed the tackle, for example.)

It definitely was not due to the lack of pressure.
Afterall, Henne was only 16 of 33,
He was also sacked once and had to scramble twice.
And of course, Gabbert was also sacked once.
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Old 11-29-2012   #169
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

I'm predicting a break-out sack game with Barwin moving to SOLB and Merci starting at WOLB.
Of course, I expect Merci to lose contain on Chris Johnson a time or two, as well as fall victim to several draw plays run directly at him.
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Old 11-29-2012   #170
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Here are the "official" numbers from NFL.com (using Stats, Inc. - Elias Sports Bureau).

2 sacks, 10 QBHs, 4 passes batted down
16 out of 39 plays (35 passes, 2 sacks & 2 scrambles).
41%

I am not sure what the QBH number stands for (whether it was Hits, or Hurries, or both.)

But I can assure you that the number of times the pressure forced the QB into an incompletion is even higher (still count as a disruption.)

41% is an insane number by itself already.
If they are saying we hurried the QB after 5 seconds, they're probably right. But that doesn't mean we had a great pass rush that day. Henne was allowed to sit back & pick us apart. There were issues on the back end, I'm not saying there wasn't. But our pass rush had issues of its own.
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Old 11-29-2012   #171
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
If they were getting the ball out quickly, I could agree with you. But that's simply not the case, We're watching these guys sit in the pocket for a long, long time. Then we chase them out of the pocket (Rogers) & he still throws a strike.

Not much we can do about Rogers being accurate on the run. But we should have pass rushers who are athletic enough to get him once in a while or at least make it a difficult pass. The guys chasing him were so far away that I don't believe they affected the throw much if at all.
Another thing you may want to look at is the completion percentage of the opponent. Even Rodgers was under his norm.

Not counting Gabbert 2 for 2 day (but with a sack), the only QB that had a better completion percentage than his norm was Fitz, by one single completion.
However, if you take way his 3 short completions in garbage time, he was also under his norm.

You don't make the QB throw under his norm by allowing them time in the pocket.
It was simply perception.
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Old 11-29-2012   #172
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
If they are saying we hurried the QB after 5 seconds, they're probably right. But that doesn't mean we had a great pass rush that day. Henne was allowed to sit back & pick us apart. There were issues on the back end, I'm not saying there wasn't. But our pass rush had issues of its own.
I just rewatched these, again.

The 63-yd pass to Blackmon was thrown under 2 secs.
Actually it was a 21-yd catch and run (42 YAC) between Quin and Manning.

The 13 yd TD to Lewis (between Quin and Manning again) was around 1.5 sec

The 67-yd TD to Short was around 1 sec, maybe a hair more.
It was a 6yd catch and run (61 YAC).

The 26-yd pass to Lewis was just under 3 secs (with Barwin credited for a QB Hit)
We rushed 4, playing quarter (4-deep, 3 underneath zone).
Quin and JJo was doubling up on #84 (Shorts) from the get-go.
Poor coverage.

The 39-yd pass to Blackmon was right at 2 sec (another miss-assignment or wrong coverage) with KJ making the tackle.
Barwin swiped at Henne's arm from behind.
Again, JJo and Quin doubling on Shorts from the get-go.

The 1yd TD to Lewis was just right at 2 secs, with Sharpton missing his assignment.

A 12yd completion was around the 2.5 sec mark, but they had max protect (7 against 5).

The 81-yd TD to Blackmon was right after 2 secs (they had 7 to block 4).
We had 4 to cover Blackmon, but guys ran into each other.
Quin gave help in the short hole, then McCain ran with Blackmon,
McCain and Manning collided with each other, throwing Demps in a loop.

In OT, there's a completion to Blackmon for 15 on 4th and 10.
Pass was gone right after the 2 sec mark.
They had 7 to block 4.
We were playing prevent defense (3 deep - 4 under).
Watt with a QB Hit just as Henne released the ball.

That's it.
Those are their longest past plays, just one over 2.5 secs.

Any more question?
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Old 11-29-2012   #173
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

76 I know you like your stats and everything but when every eye who watches the Texans is saying that the pass rush is not good enough on the outside. Then no matter how much you torture the numbers the pass rush is not good enough.
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Old 11-29-2012   #174
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

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76 I know you like your stats and everything but when every eye who watches the Texans is saying that the pass rush is not good enough on the outside. Then no matter how much you torture the numbers the pass rush is not good enough.
Yeah well, I have the record of defending bust after bust

I'm very used to going against "normal wisdom thinking".

Not to say we couldn't use more outside pass rush, but sacks is only one part of the equation.

I can tell you another thing. The broadcast view often lacks information both about pressure and coverage. And they always go hand in hand. If you can't see one facet (sometimes viewers don't have neither.)

When you don't have enough data, it's quite easy to come to the wrong conclusion.

Just like I just differ from the Fid.
I know he exaggerated about the 5 secs; nonetheless, his assumption is still incorrect even when cutting the time by half.
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Old 11-29-2012   #175
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

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Any more question?
Nope, you solved it for me. There's nothing wrong with our pass rush. Everything is like it's supposed to be. Barwin is getting screwed out of a big FA contract, because the back end sucks.
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Old 11-29-2012   #176
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

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Just like I just differ from the Fid.
I know he exaggerated about the 5 secs; nonetheless, his assumption is still incorrect even when cutting the time by half.
If you can get everyone to agree that the data you selected is conclusive to proving/disproving your argument then you can make an argument that your conclusion is correct. However, a handful of passes that were delivered in under 2.5 seconds does not prove Henne didn't enjoy a lot of time in the pocket or that our pass rush is/was sufficient. It just proves on those plays, the pass rush was not the problem.

I know what I saw. And the fact that Jj Watt has half of the teams sacks back up my position. Watt didn't sack Henne on one of those sub-five second passes. Neither did Brooks or Barwin or Merci. Watt did manage to get to him on one of the other drop-backs that took more than 2.5 seconds. No one else did.

Unless you contend that there was only one drop-back that took more than 2.5 seconds & Watt just happened to get there before anyone else, I think your whole premise is false, & the data you're providing is misleading.
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Old 11-29-2012   #177
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
If you can get everyone to agree that the data you selected is conclusive to proving/disproving your argument then you can make an argument that your conclusion is correct. However, a handful of passes that were delivered in under 2.5 seconds does not prove Henne didn't enjoy a lot of time in the pocket or that our pass rush is/was sufficient. It just proves on those plays, the pass rush was not the problem.

I know what I saw. And the fact that Jj Watt has half of the teams sacks back up my position. Watt didn't sack Henne on one of those sub-five second passes. Neither did Brooks or Barwin or Merci. Watt did manage to get to him on one of the other drop-backs that took more than 2.5 seconds. No one else did.

Unless you contend that there was only one drop-back that took more than 2.5 seconds & Watt just happened to get there before anyone else, I think your whole premise is false, & the data you're providing is misleading.
Those are their longest pass plays and scores.

Do you think the other inconsequential passes took longer?
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Old 11-29-2012   #178
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

Comp. % 1st
Yards per attempt 6th
QB rating 7th
Sacks 5th - T

I haven't been as critical as the "everyone" that all see our pass rush sucks. I think the OLB's are setting the edges of the pocket well and getting some hurries and hits but aren't getting the sacks. Smith has been disruptive. But what, are gnomes causing opposing QB's to have a miserable 53.7 comp. % on the season?

Oh and yeah examining sack numbers alone is faulty in looking at just one or two games and including hurries and hits is important but over the course of the season you don't find many high sack teams who don't also have significant hurries and hits.
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Old 11-29-2012   #179
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Default Re: Besides Watt, D-line simply just not getting done this year

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Those are their longest pass plays and scores.

Do you think the other inconsequential passes took longer?
I think if we'd have got more sacks, hurries, & hits on those inconsequential passes, he'd have been in a totally different frame of mind & maybe he would have rushed it a little, not been as accurate & maybe the big plays wouldn't have happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Comp. % 1st
Yards per attempt 6th
QB rating 7th
Sacks 5th - T

I haven't been as critical as the "everyone" that all see our pass rush sucks. I think the OLB's are setting the edges of the pocket well and getting some hurries and hits but aren't getting the sacks. Smith has been disruptive. But what, are gnomes causing opposing QB's to have a miserable 53.7 comp. % on the season?

Oh and yeah examining sack numbers alone is faulty in looking at just one or two games and including hurries and hits is important but over the course of the season you don't find many high sack teams who don't also have significant hurries and hits.
I think the problem only appeared in the last 3 games. Before that, even though we weren't getting the sacks, I think we were getting the pressure. The hits, hurries, & what not. I don't know that it showed up in the actual stats, but there was no denying we were bothering QBs.

I heard a stat, either during the Jags game or the Lions game, that we lead the league by a wide margin in getting the other team off the field on third downs. That number, whatever it was, changed over the last two weeks.

We also were at the top of the list in yards allowed. Another stat that took a tumble over that 2 week (actually 2 games in 5 day) period.

If not for the Jags game I would have "wrote it off" as a result of a better QB.

But it's been three games... Bears, Jags, & Lions that our pass rush has been absent. Bears, we wrote it off due to field conditions. Jags, they got caught napping. Lions, a good QB. Are we being honest with ourselves?
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Old 11-29-2012   #180
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If we don't get a pass rush Brady and/or manning will eat us alive in the play offs.
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