P.King on Watt & Miller

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Playoffs

PFF's line for Miller vs. Texans

Penalty - 1, QBHits - 1, QBHurries - 3, Tackles(ex-sacks) - 2, Stops* - 2.

*Stop = solo tackle (including sacks) that constitute an offensive failure

Looks like they are extremely generous with their observation.

The number of 3 assists that I noted was from the official NFL.com game book.

I believe they've been using Stats Inc for years (same as Elias Sports Bureau, the one that is responsible for correcting stats when teams send in their disputes.)

[EllisUnit]

Originally Posted by Fiddler

Agreed. Miller is a better pass rusher....... period.

Watt is probably the more rounded player. Watt probably affects the game more.

I look at Watt & I see a self made guy. You could change out the whole DL (save maybe Antonio) & Watts going to get his. We're seeing that now as he's getting virtually no help. I don't think Miller would disapear without Dummerville, but he certainly won't have the same impact.

But like I said earlier. I wouldn't cry one bit if Miller wins the DPOY over Watt.

Funny thing is Watt is not supposed to be a pass rusher at that position in the 3-4. He is supposed to open up lanes for the LBs. Millers position is made to sack the QB. I just dont see how yall can compare a guy who often gets to go against TEs, and HBs to a guy who is constantly double teamed by G, OT and then the HB is usually there to help as well.

I mean come on, thats like saying ur a better shot than me while your shooting a target that isnt moving while mine is dancing around like a UFO.

[Speedy]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

There's a lot more to being a good pass rusher than sacks.

Right. And Watt is doing those things at an extreme level as well - from a "position that is traditionally not a pass rusher".

[Texecutioner]

People saying that this isn't even close sound like huge homers. It's okay to rep for Watt and all, but you guys clearly haven't been watching Miller to say something like that. Every Broncos game I've watched Miller has been a total beast that has looked unblockable.

Now I do think that Watt has been slightly better, but that's mainly due to his ability to play the run well and more importantly his skills at deflecting passes. His deflections have been at huge times and have contributed to big plays for TO's. I think that Watt is just doing more everywhere. Therefore I'd say Watt should get this award if it happened now. But to act like this isn't even close as if Miller hasn't been outstanding at his own type of level and skills for their defense is just disregarding anything that he has done out of fanship for Watt. We all lover Watt, and I think he is the better guy at this point, but not by a lot.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by EllisUnit

Funny thing is Watt is not supposed to be a pass rusher at that position in the 3-4. He is supposed to open up lanes for the LBs. Millers position is made to sack the QB. I just dont see how yall can compare a guy who often gets to go against TEs, and HBs to a guy who is constantly double teamed by G, OT and then the HB is usually there to help as well.

I mean come on, thats like saying ur a better shot than me while your shooting a target that isnt moving while mine is dancing around like a UFO.

Did you see the number of times Watt rushes the passer compared to how many sacks he gets? Miller's number is much higher, meaning he gets to the passer more often on less opportunities. IMO, the "position" is already factored in.

Because Watt is the best 3-4 DE in the game, doesn't & shouldn't give him an edge in DPOY.

Body of work, their impact on the game, I think Watt is head & shoulders above everyone else. However, I understand I may be biased.

Miller has had a heck of an impact on the game as well. Beyond just getting after the QB. If the powers that be feel that Miller has had the most impact, so be it.

Imagine Brian Cushing was having a season similar to the one he had as a rookie & Watt is playing like he is now. Which one do you think would have the most impact on the game?

[Texan_Bill]

Originally Posted by beerlover

I would take Aldon Smith over Von Miller & Watt over both.

So basically your entire assesment of defensive linemen is solely based on sacks (16.5 v. 14.5 which includes the mysterious sack they took away from Watt v. Miami)? The reason I ask is Watt leads Smith in almost every other defensive catagories.

Tackles:
Watt 54 (44 solo) - Smith 48 (40 solo)

Passes defended:
Watt 13 - Smith 0

[EllisUnit]

Originally Posted by Fiddler

Did you see the number of times Watt rushes the passer compared to how many sacks he gets? Miller's number is much higher, meaning he gets to the passer more often on less opportunities. IMO, the "position" is already factored in.

Because Watt is the best 3-4 DE in the game, doesn't & shouldn't give him an edge in DPOY.

Body of work, their impact on the game, I think Watt is head & shoulders above everyone else. However, I understand I may be biased.

Miller has had a heck of an impact on the game as well. Beyond just getting after the QB. If the powers that be feel that Miller has had the most impact, so be it.

Imagine Brian Cushing was having a season similar to the one he had as a rookie & Watt is playing like he is now. Which one do you think would have the most impact on the game?

Ok again like i said Watt is facing constant double teams against G and OT and a lot of time triple teams with the HB helping out. Miller gets a lot of one on one and gets a lot of TE/HB match-ups. You cannot look at the stats/rushes and get an accurate conclusion. And i sure as hell hope he gets to the QB more per rushes. Again it all has to do with his position.

And the reason Watt will get DPOY is because it is so much more rare for a 3-4 DE to have the kinda success that watt is compared to the success of the position miller plays.

Watt Miller
Sacks 14.5 14.0
TFL 24 23
TCKL 54 47
Solo 44 39
PD 13 0
FF 0 4

Ok Now Miller has 4 FF, how many Tipped passes by watt has turned into turnovers ? I have no idea but i bet its close if not more than 4. Dont see how u think a guy who gets to go against TE's and HB's more times than not clearly wins out over the guy who gets double teames by the big guys up front and STILL has better stats than Miller.

[TexansFanatic]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Every Broncos game I've watched Miller has been a total beast that has looked unblockable.

They've both looked unblockable but Miller has a half sack fewer than Watt, seven fewer total tackles than Watt, and 13 times fewer passes defensed than Watt. I think the PD figure is what makes many of us feel like this race isn't close.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by TexansFanatic

They've both looked unblockable and Miller has a half sack fewer than Watt, eight fewer tackles than Watt, and 13 times fewer passes defensed. I think the PD figure is what makes many of us think this race isn't close.

Yeah, you're just going to have to watch the game. As an OLB, Strong side, Miller is very much involved in the pass defense. Watt's PD is what brings him into the conversation. The OLB position is naturally a more versatile position. Watt's PD makes him a more versatile player, & now he impacts the game the way an OLB does.

Just because Von Miller doesn't get his hands on the ball, he's still doing his job in pass coverage.

[EllisUnit]

Originally Posted by Fiddler

Yeah, you're just going to have to watch the game. As an OLB, Strong side, Miller is very much involved in the pass defense. Watt's PD is what brings him into the conversation.

Just because Von Miller doesn't get his hands on the ball, he's still doing his job in pass coverage.

UMMMM so Watt has better stats in every category than miller and the only reason he is in the mix is because the PD.

So what brings miller into the mix then ? I mean since Watt does have him beat in nearly all the other categories as well !

[TexansFanatic]

Originally Posted by Fiddler

Just because Von Miller doesn't get his hands on the ball, he's still doing his job in pass coverage.

He's doing his job, sure, but he's not changing the game the way Watt is changing the game by getting his hands on the ball. Has there been one pick six as a result of Watt's deflections or two? There have certainly been more than one interception resultant.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by EllisUnit

UMMMM so Watt has better stats in every category than miller and the only reason he is in the mix is because the PD.

So then what brings miller into the mix then ? I mean since Watt does have him beat in nearly all the other categories as well !

An OLB is like a Bishop on a chess board. You don't want to lose him because he is so versatile. A DT is like a Knight. Normally you'd rather lose the Knight to save your Bishop.

Jj Watt is a Knight that plays like a Bishop. If it weren't for his PDs, he'd only be a Knight.

[Texan_Bill]

Originally Posted by EllisUnit

UMMMM so Watt has better stats in every category than miller and the only reason he is in the mix is because the PD.

So what brings miller into the mix then ? I mean since Watt does have him beat in nearly all the other categories as well !

Peyton Manning.

[TexansFanatic]

Originally Posted by Fiddler

If it weren't for his PDs, he'd only be a Knight.

Which makes him better than a Bishop.

[Texan_Bill]

Originally Posted by EllisUnit

UMMMM so Watt has better stats in every category than miller and the only reason he is in the mix is because the PD.

So what brings miller into the mix then ? I mean since Watt does have him beat in nearly all the other categories as well !

Joel Dreessen.

[Texan_Bill]

Originally Posted by TexansFanatic

Which makes him better than a Bishop.

Damnit... I forget how to play chess.

[EllisUnit]

Originally Posted by TexansFanatic

He's doing his job, sure, but he's not changing the game the way Watt is changing the game by getting his hands on the ball. Has there been one pick six as a result of Watt's deflections or two? There have certainly been more than one interception resultant.

Lets not argue with him, Watt is only only on pace to break the PD by a D-line player, The sack record for a 3-4 DE end. You know nothing special. Where on the other hand Miller is doing what MANY MANY other OLB have done for years before him.

[EllisUnit]

Originally Posted by Texan_Bill

Peyton Manning.

DAMN man you are right, WTF was i thinking.

[Texan_Bill]

Originally Posted by Texan_Bill

So basically your entire assesment of defensive linemen is solely based on sacks (16.5 v. 14.5 which includes the mysterious sack they took away from Watt v. Miami)? The reason I ask is Watt leads Smith in almost every other defensive catagories.

Tackles:
Watt 54 (44 solo) - Smith 48 (40 solo)

Passes defended:
Watt 13 - Smith 0

Damnit!! I said that. ^^^^

Originally Posted by EllisUnit

Ok again like i said Watt is facing constant double teams against G and OT and a lot of time triple teams with the HB helping out. Miller gets a lot of one on one and gets a lot of TE/HB match-ups. You cannot look at the stats/rushes and get an accurate conclusion. And i sure as hell hope he gets to the QB more per rushes. Again it all has to do with his position.

And the reason Watt will get DPOY is because it is so much more rare for a 3-4 DE to have the kinda success that watt is compared to the success of the position miller plays.

Watt Miller
Sacks 14.5 14.0
TFL 24 23
TCKL 54 47
Solo 44 39
PD 13 0
FF 0 4

Ok Now Miller has 4 FF, how many Tipped passes by watt has turned into turnovers ? I have no idea but i bet its close if not more than 4. Dont see how u think a guy who gets to go against TE's and HB's more times than not clearly wins out over the guy who gets double teames by the big guys up front and STILL has better stats than Miller.

[DocBar]

Originally Posted by Fiddler

An OLB is like a Bishop on a chess board. You don't want to lose him because he is so versatile. A DT is like a Knight. Normally you'd rather lose the Knight to save your Bishop.

Jj Watt is a Knight that plays like a Bishop. If it weren't for his PDs, he'd only be a Knight.

You don't play much chess do you?