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Old 11-26-2012   #21
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

I'm not sure how you compare the two. Do these stats consider every time that Watt doesn't drop into coverage (or the opponent run the ball) an attempt to rush the passer? If that's the case then the whole arguemtent is flawed. Miller plays in a 4-3. When he is rushing the passer he is the 5th pass rusher. You can't "double team" Miller. Watt gets to the passer from the line. He is constantly double teamed. When Miller rushes the passer the play is designed to get him to the passer, you can't say the same for Watt. Watt plays on the line and he is asked to occupy blockers (he just happens to get by them frequently).

I really don't think there is much of a comparison. Watt is filling the role of guy that occupy's blockers and still getting to the passer while Miller is a pass rusher. They are both incredible but we've never seen anyone do what Watt does, EVER. Miller is incredible but what he does is not unprecedented.

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Old 11-26-2012   #22
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
So you're saying Watt should get a handicap because he plays a position that is traditionally not a pass rusher? Yeah, I'll still go with Miller as the better pass rusher of the two. Watt is clearly the better overall player, but he does not get to the QB as well as Miller does. Von looks like the second coming of Demarcus Ware to me.
Which one has more sacks again? Not saying Miller isn't a beast, but the pass rush specialist is a half a sack behind the guy with the handicap of not playing a traditional pass rush position.

J.J. Watt is changing the game. He is likely redefining how linemen play this game in the future. That's Babe Ruth-ish, Wilt Chamberlain-ish.
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Old 11-26-2012   #23
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

watt is far and away leading run stopping categories. he's been first or second in sacks all season. AND he's already broken the record for passes defensed by a lineman. what's the discussion again? he isnt as good a pass rusher as the free blitzer who has fewer sacks?
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Old 11-26-2012   #24
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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Which one has more sacks again? Not saying Miller isn't a beast, but the pass rush specialist is a half a sack behind the guy with the handicap of not playing a traditional pass rush position.

J.J. Watt is changing the game. He is likely redefining how linemen play this game in the future. That's Babe Ruth-ish, Wilt Chamberlain-ish.
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Old 11-26-2012   #25
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

This discussion is comical.

Miller isn't even the MVP of his own team let alone the NFL.
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Old 11-26-2012   #26
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watt is far and away leading run stopping categories. he's been first or second in sacks all season. AND he's already broken the record for passes defensed by a lineman. what's the discussion again? he isnt as good a pass rusher as the free blitzer who has fewer sacks?
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Old 11-26-2012   #27
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
What exactly is the issue for you here? They play different positions, so obviously it won't match up perfectly. The author is trying to compare and contrast two of the best defensive players in the NFL, who coincidentally were both drafted in 2011. They both play 90% of their team's snaps (which is probably why Aldon Smith was left out of this), and they both make a tremendous impact on what appear to be the top two teams in the AFC.

FTA:



Watt clearly does not generate as much pressure as Miller on a per play basis. It's a fact, regardless of what their sack numbers are. Sacks are overrated, because a QB pressure that leads to an incompletion or an INT doesn't show up in the stats. Stat geeks like PFF are trying to change that perception with the type of stats presented in the article, because QB pressures and hits are often overlooked.

That line I quoted shows that 20.5% of the time Miller rushes, he disrupts the QB, whereas 12.2% of the time Watt rushes, he does the same. That's a difference in their game, but it's not a detriment to Watt, Miller is simply a better pass rusher and it's the most valuable part of his game. It's a good comparison as these two may be the top candidates for Defensive player of the year.
No issue just saying millers position is designed to get more sacks/rush the passer and watts position is not. That's all I'm saying
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Old 11-26-2012   #28
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No issue just saying millers position is designed to get more sacks/rush the passer and watts position is not. That's all I'm saying
I'd like to see VM have to engage an OL on every single snap. No outside angle as his fellow DL dig into that trench fortification...every snap.

Yeah, Watt is a thick boneless ribeye over mesquite smoke. Miller's the sirloin on a griddle. No shame in a sirloin, but the marbling in that ribeye??? Mmmmm...good.
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Old 11-26-2012   #29
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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Originally Posted by Speedy View Post
Which one has more sacks again? Not saying Miller isn't a beast, but the pass rush specialist is a half a sack behind the guy with the handicap of not playing a traditional pass rush position.

J.J. Watt is changing the game. He is likely redefining how linemen play this game in the future. That's Babe Ruth-ish, Wilt Chamberlain-ish.
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watt is far and away leading run stopping categories. he's been first or second in sacks all season. AND he's already broken the record for passes defensed by a lineman. what's the discussion again? he isnt as good a pass rusher as the free blitzer who has fewer sacks?
Repped both. Good posts.
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Old 11-26-2012   #30
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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Originally Posted by Speedy View Post
Which one has more sacks again? Not saying Miller isn't a beast, but the pass rush specialist is a half a sack behind the guy with the handicap of not playing a traditional pass rush position.

J.J. Watt is changing the game. He is likely redefining how linemen play this game in the future. That's Babe Ruth-ish, Wilt Chamberlain-ish.
There's a lot more to being a good pass rusher than sacks.

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I'd like to see VM have to engage an OL on every single snap. No outside angle as his fellow DL dig into that trench fortification...every snap.

Yeah, Watt is a thick boneless ribeye over mesquite smoke. Miller's the sirloin on a griddle. No shame in a sirloin, but the marbling in that ribeye??? Mmmmm...good.
Do you even watch Broncos games? I mean honestly, have you paid attention to Von Miller at all this season, or last season? He didn't win DROY by getting 11 unhindered runs at the QB, he has quite a few moves on top of great speed. He does in fact draw double teams, and when we played the Broncos in week 3, we had a TE, an OT or both going against him every play (D Brown shut him down a few times btw). He never had a single free run at Schaub from what I saw (though he did beat Newton/OD/Graham a few times to get QB hits). Go watch the game on TTTube if you don't believe me, he's number 58. He is usually at the WOLB position, but him and Dumerville switch sometimes, and he rushes the middle too. He definitely draws a lot of attention from opposing offenses, but like any elite player, he can overcome what they throw at him.
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Old 11-26-2012   #31
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
There's a lot more to being a good pass rusher than sacks.



Do you even watch Broncos games? I mean honestly, have you paid attention to Von Miller at all this season, or last season? He didn't win DROY by getting 11 unhindered runs at the QB, he has quite a few moves on top of great speed. He does in fact draw double teams, and when we played the Broncos in week 3, we had a TE, an OT or both going against him every play (D Brown shut him down a few times btw). He never had a single free run at Schaub from what I saw (though he did beat Newton/OD/Graham a few times to get QB hits). Go watch the game on TTTube if you don't believe me, he's number 58. He is usually at the WOLB position, but him and Dumerville switch sometimes, and he rushes the middle too. He definitely draws a lot of attention from opposing offenses, but like any elite player, he can overcome what they throw at him.
I wonder how many sacks JJ would have if they doubled him with a tackle and TE or RB. Huge difference getting doubled up by a G/C and a T/TE or T/RB.
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Old 11-26-2012   #32
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
There's a lot more to being a good pass rusher than sacks.



Do you even watch Broncos games? I mean honestly, have you paid attention to Von Miller at all this season, or last season? He didn't win DROY by getting 11 unhindered runs at the QB, he has quite a few moves on top of great speed. He does in fact draw double teams, and when we played the Broncos in week 3, we had a TE, an OT or both going against him every play (D Brown shut him down a few times btw). He never had a single free run at Schaub from what I saw (though he did beat Newton/OD/Graham a few times to get QB hits). Go watch the game on TTTube if you don't believe me, he's number 58. He is usually at the WOLB position, but him and Dumerville switch sometimes, and he rushes the middle too. He definitely draws a lot of attention from opposing offenses, but like any elite player, he can overcome what they throw at him.
Dummervile was the one who got credited for one sack and 3 QB hits.

Miller had none.
All he had was 3 assists.
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Old 11-26-2012   #33
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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I'd like to see VM have to engage an OL on every single snap.
We're going to need find some faster OL'men, then.
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Old 11-26-2012   #34
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Dummervile was the one who got credited for one sack and 3 QB hits.

Miller had none.
All he had was 3 assists.
Odd, I must have created this from my imagination...





Makes me wonder how accurate FBO and PFF are in assessing their scores and counting things like this. Do they not count it if there is a penalty?
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Old 11-26-2012   #35
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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We're going to need find some faster OL'men, then.
I just rewatched the game.
Duane Brown handled him like a bug.
Even when he went up against Graham and O.D., he was neutralized.

He did gain the upper edge against Newton 3 times, but each time, Schaub already threw the ball (not sure if any of those qualifies as QB hurry - maybe one.)
Newton did pancake him twice though (got called for holding on one because he threw Miller to the ground.)
And Newton was only in his third game.

Miller did get to Schaub once when Foster was assigned to him and missed the cut block.
Miller got called for roughing the passer on that play so no stat was recorded.
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Old 11-26-2012   #36
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Odd, I must have created this from my imagination...





Makes me wonder how accurate FBO and PFF are in assessing their scores and counting things like this. Do they not count it if there is a penalty?
Read my post above.
It was Foster that missed the cut block.
No lineman was on him on that play.
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Old 11-26-2012   #37
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No need to sell miller short to make watt look better.
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Old 11-26-2012   #38
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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No need to sell miller short to make watt look better.
No, just stating what I saw in that game.
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Old 11-26-2012   #39
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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No need to sell miller short to make watt look better.
Agreed. Miller is a better pass rusher....... period.

Watt is probably the more rounded player. Watt probably affects the game more.

I look at Watt & I see a self made guy. You could change out the whole DL (save maybe Antonio) & Watts going to get his. We're seeing that now as he's getting virtually no help. I don't think Miller would disapear without Dummerville, but he certainly won't have the same impact.

But like I said earlier. I wouldn't cry one bit if Miller wins the DPOY over Watt.
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Old 11-26-2012   #40
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Default Re: P.King on Watt & Miller

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Makes me wonder how accurate FBO and PFF are in assessing their scores and counting things like this. Do they not count it if there is a penalty?
PFF's line for Miller vs. Texans

Penalty - 1, QBHits - 1, QBHurries - 3, Tackles(ex-sacks) - 2, Stops* - 2.
*Stop = solo tackle (including sacks) that constitute an offensive failure
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