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Old 11-24-2012   #21
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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Originally Posted by EllisUnit View Post
Wish i could say i'm surprised

Dude this is powderpuff league. Heaven for bid players used to play with no face masks and made maybe 5K a year. The NFL is going to run the game into the ground, fans will lose interest in the game. The game will go under eventually with all these new girl football rules.

I mean really dude we have everyday Americans that barely skim by and put there selves at a greater risk everyday to feed their families. I have worked in the oilfield for 6 years now, have seen a guy catapicated, seen a guy lose both legs, seen a rack of drill pipe break the stands and fall on 4 guys killing all of them instantly while on their lunch break. And for what 80,000 a year ??? Give me a break give me a job making 1 million dollars a year with the risk that NFL players take compared to all the guys i work with daily and they would take it in an instant.

Infact you have to sign a waiver before working here AND most places in the oilfield saying if you lose your life while on the job that the company is not liable. Lose a leg or a limb and they will give you 10K but lose ur life and ur family is Fuc***.

Safety my ass
I didn't say safety. I said covering their butt. You can blame NFL all you want, but the league would not be going this way if former players were not suing.

I'm sure the same thing happened with your company when the person was catapicated (??). Someone sued your company, or OSHA had a fit, & your company put rules in place to keep people from getting catapicated (??) again. Those rules may not be followed as closely as the NFL is following their rules, most likely because you don't have weekly televised broadcast of everyday work practices.

But let someone else get catapicated (??) & I bet they'll enforce their rules then.
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Old 11-24-2012   #22
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Cool Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

So it sounds like what I have been saying is correct - if Harris got there .5 seconds later probably no penalty because the player would have been 'set?'
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Old 11-24-2012   #23
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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Originally Posted by Yankee_In_TX View Post
So it sounds like what I have been saying is correct - if Harris got there .5 seconds later probably no penalty because the player would have been 'set?'
NO - it has nothing to do with being set. It is entirely about the helmet to helmet contact. Harris could have hit him with the exact same timing directly in the chest and there would have been no flag.
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Old 11-24-2012   #24
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
NO - it has nothing to do with being set. It is entirely about the helmet to helmet contact. Harris could have hit him with the exact same timing directly in the chest and there would have been no flag.
So why didn't they just call a helmet-to-helmet penalty?
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Old 11-24-2012   #25
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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Originally Posted by Yankee_In_TX View Post
So it sounds like what I have been saying is correct - if Harris got there .5 seconds later probably no penalty because the player would have been 'set?'
I don't know about .5 seconds later, but if the receiver would have made a football move (I don't know if that language is in the rules), or clearly made the transition from defenseless receiver to runner, that hit would not have drawn a flag.

But it's a judgement call. The first one in this video is clear, the receiver is still in the act of catching the ball. He should not be hit above the shoulders. The second one, the flag is thrown by two officials, but it appears to me that the receiver has made the transition from receiver to runner. It appears he lowers his head to protect himself.
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Old 11-24-2012   #26
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Cool Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
per the rule:



For the rule in its entirety: http://nflcommunications.com/2011/12...seless-player/
If that is the applicable rule the way I read it is that he is defenseless as long as he
Quote:
has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner
, thus making a hit to the head illegal.

Seems to me once he has become set he is no longer a defenseless player and therefore can be hit.

If it was just a plane Jane helmet to helmet then they made the wrong call.

????
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Old 11-24-2012   #27
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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Originally Posted by NitroGSXR View Post
So why didn't they just call a helmet-to-helmet penalty?
Because it wasn't.
Notice the rule says "in the head and Neck area".
Harris was going "kinda" up.
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Old 11-24-2012   #28
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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So why didn't they just call a helmet-to-helmet penalty?
They did. They said defenseless receiver. As CnD posted above, one of the things you can't do to a defenseless receiver is helmet to helmet contact.
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Old 11-24-2012   #29
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
They did. They said defenseless receiver. As CnD posted above, one of the things you can't do to a defenseless receiver is helmet to helmet contact.
Well... what I meant was that I have seen referees call it a illegal helmet to helmet contact before. They called this one a defenseless receiver. Why is there variation in the wording of penalties that apparently mean the same thing?
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Old 11-24-2012   #30
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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Originally Posted by NitroGSXR View Post
Well... what I meant was that I have seen referees call it a illegal helmet to helmet contact before. They called this one a defenseless receiver. Why is there variation in the wording of penalties that apparently mean the same thing?
I think they are getting away from the helmet to helmet language & being more specific. Helmet to helmet is not a penalty unless it's against a defenseless receiver, QB, & there are some other extenuating circumstances like launching yourself into a player, or using the crown of your helmet.

Helmet to helmet happens all the time & imo, can't be a penalty in & of itself.
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Old 11-24-2012   #31
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

Can anyone post a gif of the hit?
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Old 11-24-2012   #32
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Cool Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Can anyone post a gif of the hit?
My recollection is it was a judgment call. Some fraction later they would not have been able to make that call.
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Old 11-24-2012   #33
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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Originally Posted by Yankee_In_TX View Post
If that is the applicable rule the way I read it is that he is defenseless as long as he , thus making a hit to the head illegal.

Seems to me once he has become set he is no longer a defenseless player and therefore can be hit.

If it was just a plane Jane helmet to helmet then they made the wrong call.

????
You're the lawyer , so I think you are very well qualified to read the rules, but also the reason for the rule.

The rule was made "supposedly" to protect a defenseless player.
So I would think as long as that guy is qualified as such, he should be "protected" by that rule.
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Old 11-24-2012   #34
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Cool Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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You're the lawyer , so I think you are very well qualified to read the rules, but also the reason for the rule.

The rule was made "supposedly" to protect a defenseless player.
So I would think as long as that guy is qualified as such, he should be "protected" by that rule.
Sorry, when I said 'wrong call' I didn't mean their shouldn't have been a penalty, I meant worded it incorrectly. But I was corrected when someone said they're trying to call the specific penalty rather than a generic 'helmet to helmet.'

My whole point was Harris knew better and shouldn't have made the hit, but damn, if he had gotten there half a second later it would have been a game changer (assuming there is still a fumble).
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Old 11-25-2012   #35
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

I'm confused to because he was supposedly flagged for the "defensely" receiver rule, but the penalty seems not to have been leveled for that but instead "helmet-to-helment" contact which is different ?
The truth is it was a tremendous play by Harris even though he and the team were penalized by the capricious officiating of the refs.
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Old 11-25-2012   #36
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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I didn't say safety. I said covering their butt. You can blame NFL all you want, but the league would not be going this way if former players were not suing.

I'm sure the same thing happened with your company when the person was catapicated (??). Someone sued your company, or OSHA had a fit, & your company put rules in place to keep people from getting catapicated (??) again. Those rules may not be followed as closely as the NFL is following their rules, most likely because you don't have weekly televised broadcast of everyday work practices.

But let someone else get catapicated (??) & I bet they'll enforce their rules then.
You have to sign a waiver with your new hire paperwork saying the company is not liable for loss of life, it is that way with 95% of all oilfield companies. i think the exception is off shore companies.

But that wasnt really my point, all these has been players who are now broke are suing the NFL, not a big surprise. Kinda like that burgular 5-10 years ago who fell on a knife in this ladies kitchen while breaking into her house and sued her and won. I mean we can all agree our legal system has become a big joke.
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Old 11-25-2012   #37
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
I think they are getting away from the helmet to helmet language & being more specific. Helmet to helmet is not a penalty unless it's against a defenseless receiver, QB, & there are some other extenuating circumstances like launching yourself into a player, or using the crown of your helmet.

Helmet to helmet happens all the time & imo, can't be a penalty in & of itself.
Defenseless receiver seems to be a heckuva lot more general than helmet to helmet. I don't believe they called him for the helmet hit at all. I believe they called him for the reason cloak described... he wasn't "set" enough. Whatever they really meant... I wish they would tighten up the wording when it comes to penalties. Be consistent with what the calls are called.
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Old 11-25-2012   #38
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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I'm confused to because he was supposedly flagged for the "defensely" receiver rule, but the penalty seems not to have been leveled for that but instead "helmet-to-helment" contact which is different ?
The truth is it was a tremendous play by Harris even though he and the team were penalized by the capricious officiating of the refs.
The call was for hitting a defenseless player high in the head or neck area.
It's difficult to see the contact clearly to tell whether the helmets were in contact, but Harris definitely was going upward in motion with the helmet leading toward that area. But the helmets didn't even have to be in contact for the call to be made.

If Harris came a little later, the call could still be made, but not to a defenseless player. It will be up to the ref to "decide" whether the hit was high enough. Now since the offensive player is no longer in a defenseless position, the ref might be inclined not to deem it a high hit, especially with Harris trying to make a wrap up tackle rather than launching himself with intention to inflict some hurting.
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Old 11-25-2012   #39
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

but damn that was a good hit.
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Old 11-25-2012   #40
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Default Re: Brandon Harris Penalty on Punt

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but damn that was a good hit.
hey something we can agree on.
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