Manziel

[Wolf]

Originally Posted by Say Watt

Interesting. I would find it very surprising if guys like Palmer, Leinart, and other true pocket passers in college football that won the Heisman didn't also win their positional award.

Without looking I don't remember them doing it. I could be wrong

[disaacks3]

Originally Posted by Specnatz

What ever your issue is with Notre Dame is and I have never kicked your dog or slept with any of your relatives I would kindly like you to stop the insults. Notre Dame is the complete opposite of the cowpies.

Comparison looks fairly apt if you ask me. Get solid nationwide coverage even in your "suck" years? -Check

Nationwide following from cradle to grave, even for people who grew up in another state? - Check

A "destination" team..."When I grow upp, I want to play for the xxx". -Check

[Dan B.]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

Going into this year, ND was expected to have the toughest strength of schedule, but it appears that was just hype. The Big 10 isn't nearly as strong as years past, and ND still struggled with some of those teams thanks to their anemic offense. They had trouble with teams like BYU, Purdue, and they nearly lost to Pitt in OT. I don't have a doubt in my mind that if Teo was on any other team in the nation, his name would never be mentioned for Heisman. But because he's on the Dallas Cowboys of college football, we might have an ILB with mediocre stats as the winner of the Heisman.

Come on man, A&M had trouble with Ole Miss and nearly lost to La Tech.

At the end of the season Notre Dame will have gone 4-0 vs ranked opponents (winning by an average of 21-8) and A&M will have gone 3-2. That's the difference. Averaging three TD's on offense is more than enough when you are stifling your opponent. And T'eo, like it or not, is the perceived reason they are doing so -- the same way that Vinny Testaverde was perceived to be the reason Miami went undefeated.

[Specnatz]

Originally Posted by disaacks3

Comparison looks fairly apt if you ask me. Get solid nationwide coverage even in your "suck" years? -Check

Nationwide following from cradle to grave, even for people who grew up in another state? - Check

A "destination" team..."When I grow up, I want to play for the xxx". -Check

Class vs Dbags

ND gets National hate .. (Mark May we will be blown out by half time of every game this year) ESPNU ND could easily be passed up by a 1 loss team in the sec even if going undefeated.

ND gets nationwide following cause unlike a UT who only recruits locally, ND recruits nationally and folks from all over the country go there.

Nation wide coverage is because of the TV deal with NBC, and Mayock who is no ND homer does the broadcast he is harder on ND than most. He is less than fair but I am OK with that cause he does our broadcast so he needs to be shown as unbiased.

So the comparison is not fair or just.

[Dan B.]

Originally Posted by Say Watt

You must not have seen his interceptions in the LSU game either. One wasn't his fault at all (the Mike Evans tipped pass) and I believe another one was not completely his fault either. He did make some bad throws though. I just think you are severely overestimating how bad his game was against LSU. Take away one or two of the INTs which could be attributed to his receivers and it isn't a bad day at all against one of the best defenses in the country.

But dude, your t-sip bias is really shining through. I sure am glad to be out of the Big XII and not dealing with all the pretentious Cowgirls loving t-sips that think Vince Young is the only good QB in college football history.

I never brought up Vince Young (who I don't defend and in fact argue with Longhorn fans about). Never brought up the University of Texas Longhorns (and I was also mature enough to refer to Texas A&M as "A&M" or "the Aggies"). Never brought up Dallas (who I don't like anyway). You are the blind homer here. Don't deflect blame because of it.

LOL "Take away one or two of his 3 INT's (which were all someone else's fault anyway) and he didn't have a bad day at all." Yeah, I'm the one with a bias...

Here's some highlights from that game that I didn't watch. JFF throws int's at the :11 second mark and the :50 second mark. These are the two that I referred to by the way -- the one that led to LSU's first score and the one that put the game away. The INT that is presumably Evans' fault isn't on the highlight reel (although I do remember Manziel tossing one that could possibly be blamed on a Hispanic kid from Galveston. Maybe that was it). Tell me how those two picks were someone else's fault please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhPH8nvv4Gw

[Dan B.]

Originally Posted by Stemp

http://heismanpundit.com/2012/10/17/...isman-winners/

With the possible exception of Palmer (who at least had no turnovers), every one of the QB's on that list had a better game than Johnny Manziel did vs LSU.

[Stemp]

Originally Posted by Dan B.

With the possible exception of Palmer (who at least had no turnovers), every one of the QB's on that list had a better game than Johnny Manziel did vs LSU.

You are letting your bias cloud your objectivness.

A 298 total yard, 0 TD, 2 INT game against a 3 loss team who had also lost to MARSHALL that year, is in no way better than a 303 total yard, 0 TD, 3 INT game against a then undefeated team (no 2 loss against top 10 teams) who had/has a top 10 defense.

[Dan B.]

Originally Posted by Stemp

You are letting your bias cloud your objectivness.

A 298 total yard, 0 TD, 2 INT game against a 3 loss team who had also lost to MARSHALL that year, is in no way better than a 303 total yard, 0 TD, 3 INT game against a then undefeated team (no 2 loss against top 10 teams) who had/has a top 10 defense.

No I just don't assume K-State blows cuz they aren't in the almighty SEC.

K State was a top 10 defense that year too in both YPG and PA (interesting to note you're so unbiased you'd fail to mention that) and it was the conference championship game in Kansas City. They finished the season ranked 8th (where LSU is currently ranked). White had more passing yards on fewer attempts with fewer turnovers against a team in nearly an identical spot.

Also many Heisman voters cast their ballot before that game since it was the Conference title game, which skewed the results further.That game DID cost White Heisman votes.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...te.heisman.ap/

[Stemp]

Originally Posted by Dan B.

No I just don't assume K-State blows cuz they aren't in the almighty SEC.

K State was a top 10 defense that year and it was the conference championship game in Kansas City. They finished the season ranked 8th (where LSU is currently ranked). White had more passing yards on fewer attempts with fewer turnovers against a team in nearly an identical spot.

White had 1 less INT, but of the two he did have, one in the endzone the other was returned for a pick six. Plus it was the Conference championship which makes it more significant.

Now, I would say given the circumstances, both games about about equally as bad. And your statement was

What Heisman winning QB has ever had as bad of a game as Manziel had against LSU?

So my answer would be Jason White.

[Dan B.]

Originally Posted by Stemp

White had 1 less INT, but of the two he did have, one in the endzone the other was returned for a pick six. Plus it was the Conference championship which makes it more significant.

Now, I would say given the circumstances, both games about about equally as bad. And your statement was

So my answer would be Jason White.

Yeah but those INT's were all his receiver's fault anyway so they don't count

I'd rather have a pick 6 than turnovers that lead to extended drives. In my opinion the only difference between a pick 6 and a pick that's converted into a touchdown on the next drive is the offense loses those extra few minutes to score back -- which hurts a lot more with 3 minutes left and you're down by one possession.

I agree with that poster on Palmer, not on White though. Oh well. AFA the conference championship the reason its significance was reduced is because many voters had already cast their ballot. Often Heisman voters tend to treat the CCG like a bowl game -- separate from the regular season. The rationale being that White shouldn't be punished or rewarded for playing an extra game. If White had had that kind of game a week earlier, on Turkey Day weekend during the regular season vs OsU he wouldn't have won the trophy.

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by Dan B.

Come on man, A&M had trouble with Ole Miss and nearly lost to La Tech.

Yes, they did. La Tech was a great game by Manziel, no question about it. I can't even believe you would mention that, as he had 6 total TDs and accounted for nearly 600 yards of offense. The defense wasn't doing well that game, and they allowed La Tech to score a ton. We were leading by 27-0 at one point, but let them back into the game. It was exciting, but you can't blame Manziel at all in that game, he was the reason we won it. Unless of course you think he should have been playing cornerback and covering Patton. Then I guess you can blame him.

Ole Miss was bad for him, but despite the turnovers, he lead two late 4th quarter TD drives to come from behind and win it. He had a few turnovers, 2 INTs and I think he lost a fumble too, but he came back and they won it after being down by 10 in the fourth. I thought it was a good showing by him, regardless of how the overall game went.

At the end of the season Notre Dame will have gone 4-0 vs ranked opponents (winning by an average of 21-8) and A&M will have gone 3-2. That's the difference. Averaging three TD's on offense is more than enough when you are stifling your opponent. And T'eo, like it or not, is the perceived reason they are doing so -- the same way that Vinny Testaverde was perceived to be the reason Miami went undefeated.

ND has beaten 3 ranked teams by my count, unless you want to count Michigan State as a ranked team at 5-6. They were ranked at the time, but that was week 3 of the season, and the contenders and pretenders don't always shake out by then. Aside from those three, their next toughest opponent was 7-4 Navy. 7-4 USC might be a better team, but without Barkley they don't have much of a chance. It's not nearly as daunting of a schedule as it had been hyped in the preseason.

The difference to me is that Teo is getting attention because his team is a top ranked defense and they are undefeated. Can we at least agree that Teo wouldn't be in the conversation for #1 if ND had a loss or two? I think that has a lot to do with it. Winning tends to give Heisman hopefuls the edge and I think that has a lot to do with Teo's acclaim. I bring that up because I think Teo is riding his team's accomplishments more than his own individual achievements. Can you point to a "Heisman Moment" by Teo this season? Any close game where he was the difference maker with a clutch forced turnover, sack/TFL on the last drive of the game or a JJ Watt type of game?

[AnthonyE]

Originally Posted by GlassHalfFull

I agree on the most impressive play on that video. When it happened, I couldn't believe it.

Last night, he even attempted an extra point. Sadly he missed, but it was so funny that he tried. The whole team was laughing at him.

I thought having him attempt it was pretty classless. But I'm biased.

[Dan B.]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

Yes, they did. La Tech was a great game by Manziel, no question about it. I can't even believe you would mention that, as he had 6 total TDs and accounted for nearly 600 yards of offense. The defense wasn't doing well that game, and they allowed La Tech to score a ton. We were leading by 27-0 at one point, but let them back into the game. It was exciting, but you can't blame Manziel at all in that game, he was the reason we won it. Unless of course you think he should have been playing cornerback and covering Patton. Then I guess you can blame him.

I wasn't blaming Manziel for A&M's defense. I don't blame T'eo for ND's crappy offense either, though.

Ole Miss was bad for him, but despite the turnovers, he lead two late 4th quarter TD drives to come from behind and win it. He had a few turnovers, 2 INTs and I think he lost a fumble too, but he came back and they won it after being down by 10 in the fourth. I thought it was a good showing by him, regardless of how the overall game went.



ND has beaten 3 ranked teams by my count, unless you want to count Michigan State as a ranked team at 5-6. They were ranked at the time, but that was week 3 of the season, and the contenders and pretenders don't always shake out by then. Aside from those three, their next toughest opponent was 7-4 Navy. 7-4 USC might be a better team, but without Barkley they don't have much of a chance. It's not nearly as daunting of a schedule as it had been hyped in the preseason.

The difference to me is that Teo is getting attention because his team is a top ranked defense and they are undefeated. Can we at least agree that Teo wouldn't be in the conversation for #1 if ND had a loss or two? I think that has a lot to do with it. Winning tends to give Heisman hopefuls the edge and I think that has a lot to do with Teo's acclaim. I bring that up because I think Teo is riding his team's accomplishments more than his own individual achievements. Can you point to a "Heisman Moment" by Teo this season? Any close game where he was the difference maker with a clutch forced turnover, sack/TFL on the last drive of the game or a JJ Watt type of game?

I absolutely agree that T'eo wouldn't be in the discussion if ND had a few losses or if he played for a different team. That's what I'm saying -- I think the fact that they went unbeaten is the biggest factor and I think you are selling their defense short. Notre Dame also tends to be one of the schools that can get enough votes for a player to win at a non traditional position (think Tim Brown).

Think like a Heisman voter. Who are the ones living in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and the Northeast going to vote for? Those Midwestern voters are the reason Troy Smith, Charles Woodson, and others along that vein got their trophies. If T'eo can get enough votes from the Northeast corridor or siphon a few off out west from Oregon/Lee doubters (Notre Dame does carry some clout out there and T'eo might win a few doubters with a dominating game vs the Trojans) he can definitely win the ballot.

[Wolf]

So anyone think the he will win the heismanziel?

[Pollardized]

Originally Posted by Wolf

So anyone think the he will win the heismanziel?

He should. Gig 'Em.

[Insideop]

Originally Posted by Wolf

So anyone think the he will win the heismanziel?

He has the stats and the "signature win" over #1 Alabama. He should win it regardless of whether he's a Freshman or not, and nobody else has the overall numbers he has. Someone may have more passing or rushing yards than him but not both. And how many thought A&M would do this well in their 1st season in the SEC? That's right, no one! If Manziel doesn't win it, then something is wrong with the system. What was it Bear Bryant said about the Heisman and John David Crow? If he didn't win it they should stop giving it out!

[PapaL]

We already know something is wrong w the system. Short of them giving it Reggie Bush this year who knows. There's all kinds of bias in the voting. Some people don't want a Freshman winning it. Others refuse to vote for a true defender (Woodson had snaps at WR and was a great returner). It is what it is.

[Specnatz]

Aggies are doing the VY vote as we speak., hell I have already been told I can't tailgate anymore cause of it. Never was told that by a longhorn.

[Stemp]

Originally Posted by Specnatz

Aggies are doing the VY vote as we speak., hell I have already been told I can't tailgate anymore cause of it. Never was told that by a longhorn.

What?

[disaacks3]

Originally Posted by Specnatz

Aggies are doing the VY vote as we speak., hell I have already been told I can't tailgate anymore cause of it. Never was told that by a longhorn.

Originally Posted by Stemp

What?

Yep, no comprende. WTF are you talking about?