Is Matt Schaub clutch?

[2012Champs]

Originally Posted by JamesBill

Most people will go with Eli. His 4th quarter splits are crazy and he has made some seriously awesome, memorable plays. Two 4th quarter comebacks in the superbowl doesn't hurt either.

Eli's 2011 is where he was really good in the 4th and his super bowls. If you look at the other years its not as crazy as a lot would make it out to be

[Say Watt]

Yes, Matt Schaub is a clutch QB. As Herv said, no one is ALWAYS clutch, but Matt has led us on game winning drives numerous times in his career. That to me is clutch. I feel he will definitely deserve the label when he wins a Super Bowl.

[2012Champs]

Originally Posted by Say Watt

Yes, Matt Schaub is a clutch QB. As Herv said, no one is ALWAYS clutch, but Matt has led us on game winning drives numerous times in his career. That to me is clutch. I feel he will definitely deserve the label when he wins a Super Bowl.

Also of note if our D wasnt total crap Id wager that Schaub would have a handful more game winning drives however this is all pissing in the wind at the moment

[The Pencil Neck]

Originally Posted by JamesBill

Most people will go with Eli. His 4th quarter splits are crazy and he has made some seriously awesome, memorable plays. Two 4th quarter comebacks in the superbowl doesn't hurt either.

He's also cost his team games in the 4th quarter. He's got 3 game winning drives and 3 4th quarter comebacks this year. But he's also lost 4 games. And in 3 of those 4 games, the Giants had a lead in the 4th quarter and gave it up.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, "clutch" QBs have to be losing until the 4th quarter. They asked Elway about all his 4th quarter comebacks once and he said that's something he'd prefer not to have to do because it means that they weren't playing good at the beginning of the game.

I prefer a QB who gets out fast, grabs the lead, and then doesn't give it up. That's not the definition of clutch but that's what I want in a QB. I want a ruthless QB who doesn't give the other team a chance, a QB who doesn't make mistakes, and who takes advantage of the other team's mistakes.

I think Schaub is developing into that kind of QB.

[klockWork]

Shaub elite? Clutch? Are u kidding?
Eli Manning have 2 SB MVP countless comeback wins. AND people til this day are still questioning if this guy is elite(Ask Phil Simms).
I'm a diehard Texans fan like many here, but please somebody, kill this thread before my a-hole brother from Wisconsin sees it and erupt with laughter.

[htownfan32]

I dunno, Eli hasn't looked too clutch this year.

[Hervoyel]

Originally Posted by klockWork

Shaub elite? Clutch? Are u kidding?
Eli Manning have 2 SB MVP countless comeback wins. AND people til this day are still questioning if this guy is elite(Ask Phil Simms).
I'm a diehard Texans fan like many here, but please somebody, kill this thread before my a-hole brother from Wisconsin sees it and erupt with laughter.

Stupid people still question whether he's elite. Nobody else does. "Elite" is a term that to me sounds like it should be just one or two guys but in reality there's no place in the NFL for the term because football isn't a sport where one guys talent takes over an entire game. Not ever. Not when Jerry Rice was playing with Joe Montana, not when Lynn Swann was catching passes. Never. I can put Tom Brady on the 1983 Oilers and he's a piece of **** from the late rounds. Period. I can do the same thing with any player you ask. Nobody is leading the Raiders to a Super Bowl over the last decade.

There aren't Elite QB's. There are good QB's and bad QB's and that's it. You can do it or you can't and how well you can do it all depends on all those variables again. Who's catching your passes? Who's protecting you? Who created the scheme you're playing in and who did your GM draft over the last ten years? It goes on and on but I don't believe for a second that Peyton Manning could be taking the Chiefs to the playoffs this year and neither does Peyton Manning. That's why Romeo Crennel's team wasn't on Peyton's short list.

More than what you accomplish though is how you develop. A good QB on a bad team or going through an OC revolving door where the system changes every year will become bad. Another good QB playing in a consistent environment will become great. "Elite" is a good QB in an optimal situation who has been able to hone his skills and reach a level of confidence that others just don't have. OK, I've talked myself back around into believing that there are Elite QB's but they're not the sole product of some genetic miracle. They're made not born.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Hervoyel

Stupid people still question whether he's elite.

Good post. However, I think elite means playing at a high level for a period of time. Schaub's got some pretty good stats, he's on the all-time list for a few different criteria, so the level of play is there.

Unfortunately, he's a QB & wins count for him, losses count against him. He's putting together a pretty good resume now & I'm sure he'll be on the short list of elite QBs in this league.

[Rey]

Originally Posted by Hervoyel

Stupid people still question whether he's elite. Nobody else does. "Elite" is a term that to me sounds like it should be just one or two guys but in reality there's no place in the NFL for the term because football isn't a sport where one guys talent takes over an entire game. Not ever. Not when Jerry Rice was playing with Joe Montana, not when Lynn Swann was catching passes. Never. I can put Tom Brady on the 1983 Oilers and he's a piece of **** from the late rounds. Period. I can do the same thing with any player you ask. Nobody is leading the Raiders to a Super Bowl over the last decade.

There aren't Elite QB's.

Completely disagree.

Peyton Manning is a prime example. Colts aren't going 2-14 with Peyton Manning as their QB.

There are elite QB's in the NFL and while they may not win games single handed, if they are lost their teams expectations and ceiling dramatically drop.

I believe there are elite players at most every position, but the weight shifts heavily towards the QB because of their importance.

I think one of the things that leads to a QB being called elite are mostly due to having good outings in big games/moments (mainly the superbowl) or just being prolific in every aspect (Peyton Manning pre SB ring).

If Schaub has good games through the play-offs and has a good game and maybe some clutch throws in a superbowl then he will move up into the next tier of QB which would be Eli, Big Ben. Will probably never reach the Brady, Brees, Manning, Rodgers level but he can certainly reach Eli status.

[EllisUnit]

Originally Posted by JamesBill

In the last 20 years, I can't name a QB worse than Schaub, or not a freaking Hall of Famer, to win a Super Bowl except Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer. Both of those guys had an all time great defense, and were under a very different rule system.

MY worry about Schaub is, have the rules have changed so much that without an elite QB it might be almost impossible to win it all. Elite quarterbacks have become priceless. Really legit starters are priceless, but an elite quarterback these days can destroy any defense if he is hot. You can't hit him, his receivers, and pass interference is constantly called.

I guess the league did this for more excitement, and to increase comeback ability so people don't turn off their TVs knowing the game is over, but IMO it has backfired lessening the parity. Can a team win a Superbowl these days without a superstar quarterback, or a QB playing like a superstar? It is obviously extremely difficult, which makes a championship a realistic possibility for very few teams, moving the NFL closer to the realities of the NBA and away from building teams.

The fact is Schaub is the 6th best quarterback among the 8 division leaders in the NFL, which makes it highly likely every QB the Texans face in the playoffs is better.

hmmm well i will counter that

heres an example of the rankings of defense who helped their teams win the super bowl

2008 steelers - 1st
2005 steelers - 3rd
2004 patriots - 2nd
2003 patriots - 1st
2002 bucs - 1st
2001 patriots - 1st
2000 rams - 1st
1998 broncos - 8th
1997 brocos - 6th
1996 packers - 1st
1995 cowboys - 3rd
1994 49ers - 6th
1993 cowboys - 2nd
1992 cowboys - 5th
1991 redskins - 2nd
1990 giants - 1st
1989 49ers - 3rd
1988 49ers - 8th

List goes on and on my point is while the starting QBs may have been "Elite" the defenses were no slouch. So cant say they won the SB "Just" because of their QB. Just saying.

[Hervoyel]

Originally Posted by Rey

Completely disagree.

Peyton Manning is a prime example. Colts aren't going 2-14 with Peyton Manning as their QB.

There are elite QB's in the NFL and while they may not win games single handed, if they are lost their teams expectations and ceiling dramatically drop.

I believe there are elite players at most every position, but the weight shifts heavily towards the QB because of their importance.

I think one of the things that leads to a QB being called elite are mostly due to having good outings in big games/moments (mainly the superbowl) or just being prolific in every aspect (Peyton Manning pre SB ring).

If Schaub has good games through the play-offs and has a good game and maybe some clutch throws in a superbowl then he will move up into the next tier of QB which would be Eli, Big Ben. Will probably never reach the Brady, Brees, Manning, Rodgers level but he can certainly reach Eli status.

I think that in Peyton's situation the Colts were built in such a way that no provision was made for his absence.

I also did talk myself into a circle and eventually did concede that there are elite QB's. I just feel like an elite QB is nothing but a good QB in a great situation given every opportunity to succeed and any number of factors can move that along or derail it.

[JamesBill]

Originally Posted by EllisUnit

hmmm well i will counter that

heres an example of the rankings of defense who helped their teams win the super bowl

List goes on and on my point is while the starting QBs may have been "Elite" the defenses were no slouch. So cant say they won the SB "Just" because of their QB. Just saying.

I'm not sure what you are countering exactly but will further the discussion.

I said 20 years so I wouldn't have any arguments about the quality of QB, and I said the two non-HOF QBs had "All Time Great" defenses. Looking at your expanded list, 3 defenses should stick out to everyone, 1990 Giants, 2002 Bucs and 2000 Ravens. Those are All Time Great defenses, anyone picking the 3 best out of your list would choose those. Coincidentally (or not), people picking the 3 WORST QB's would also choose those three teams. Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer.

The thing to also remember is, even in 2000-2002 WRs were scared to go across the middle but now they do it freely knowing any big hit will be a 15 yard penalty and if the ball gets knocked loose it is much more likely to be called incomplete than a fumble. Basically it is now even harder to win without incredible play from your QB.

[EllisUnit]

Originally Posted by JamesBill

I'm not sure what you are countering exactly but will further the discussion.

I said 20 years so I wouldn't have any arguments about the quality of QB, and I said the two non-HOF QBs had "All Time Great" defenses. Looking at your expanded list, 3 defenses should stick out to everyone, 1990 Giants, 2002 Bucs and 2000 Ravens. Those are All Time Great defenses, anyone picking the 3 best out of your list would choose those. Coincidentally (or not), people picking the 3 WORST QB's would also choose those three teams. Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer.

The thing to also remember is, even in 2000-2002 WRs were scared to go across the middle but now they do it freely knowing any big hit will be a 15 yard penalty and if the ball gets knocked loose it is much more likely to be called incomplete than a fumble. Basically it is now even harder to win without incredible play from your QB.

You had said last 20 years, so was just following your lead. My point is that although the QBs may be elite what they all seem to have in common for the most part is top 10 defenses. A QB cant win or even get to a SB all by himself.

[JamesBill]

Originally Posted by EllisUnit

[/u][/b]

You had said last 20 years, so was just following your lead. My point is that although the QBs may be elite what they all seem to have in common for the most part is top 10 defenses. A QB cant win or even get to a SB all by himself.

20 years ago is 1992, not 1988 right? lol

No argument it still takes a team, my point was now that the rules have changed so much, it might be almost impossible to win without outstanding quarterback play. Killing parity and the hopes of teams with strengths other than at the QB position.

The point of the last paragraph you underlined, just serves to question whether it is possible even with a Juggernaut defense. I don't think we are disagreeing about much here if at all.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by JamesBill

Basically it is now even harder to win without incredible play from your QB.

In your opinion, if we win the 2012/2013 Super Bowl would that change the way people see Matt Schaub, or our defense?

In other words, will they say we have a HOF QB, or an all time great defense?

[guichows6]

Schaub seems like he goes into elite mode when given the reigns and starts working that nohuddle. .I think they should pick up the pace more often.

[EllisUnit]

Originally Posted by guichows6

Schaub seems like he goes into elite mode when given the reigns and starts working that nohuddle. .I think they should pick up the pace more often.

i agree with this 100% he looks like a brady, Rogers type player when operating the no huddle hurry up offense.

[JamesBill]

Originally Posted by Fiddler

In your opinion, if we win the 2012/2013 Super Bowl would that change the way people see Matt Schaub, or our defense?

In other words, will they say we have a HOF QB, or an all time great defense?

Wow, hard question. ESPN always pushes a narrative, so I agree one will get crowned "The Reason" we won. It will depend mostly on how the games go in the playoffs. If they go 1985 bears and allow only 10 points for 3 games, it will obviously be defense. If Schaub wins a shootout or two, they will push that.

If I had to choose right now, knowing nothing else, I will say they will talk more about our defense if it holds together at all. Wade Phillips riding in to save the day, a guy they already love, with a career mostly defined. Then they can still ask Schaub if he is "elite" another 100 times.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by guichows6

Schaub seems like he goes into elite mode when given the reigns and starts working that nohuddle. .I think they should pick up the pace more often.

He's definitely a rhythm passer.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by JamesBill

Wow, hard question. ESPN always pushes a narrative, so I agree one will get crowned "The Reason" we won. It will depend mostly on how the games go in the playoffs. If they go 1985 bears and allow only 10 points for 3 games, it will obviously be defense. If Schaub wins a shootout or two, they will push that.

If I had to choose right now, knowing nothing else, I will say they will talk more about our defense if it holds together at all. Wade Phillips riding in to save the day, a guy they already love, with a career mostly defined. Then they can still ask Schaub if he is "elite" another 100 times.

What if we win every game by 17 points? The defense average giving up 13 points & the offense averages 27-28 points? Chances are we'll ride Arian Foster to those 38 points though..... so yeah, Schaub will get lost in the media.