Manziel

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by Specnatz

Yes it is close, but you are only looking at the offensive side of the ball just like most of the stat reading folks.

Manti Te'o is having a great season and is a true leader.



It is not pity votes, he deserves consideration.

Oh please, I don't care if his parents died in 9/11. The Heisman is supposed to be awarded to the best player in college football, not the one with biggest sob story. I do kind of wonder how people would react to him missing the funeral of his girlfriend over playing against Michigan though. People were pretty adamant about not missing an NFL game for the birth of a child in another thread, I can't believe the reaction would be different for a funeral of a family member.

[Say Watt]

Originally Posted by Stemp

What oustanding thing has Te'o done that should put him in serious consideration? I mean really. What stats make him shine? Or is the unidentifiable "intangibles" that people point to when they can't find hard evidence?

The truth is Te'o is having a mediocre year statistically. His stats are middle of the road. Yes, he's a good leader, but most every good team has them. Compare Te'o to Moore A&M who is the NCAA leader in sacks but has no mention for the Heisman. Very comparable.

Te'o
Tackles
TOT SOLO SACK
96 43 2

Moore
Tackles
TOT SOLO SACK
78 53 12.5

Te'o
Other stats
INT YDS TD
6 35 0

Moore
Other stats
Passes Broken Up QB Hurries Fumbles Forced Kicks/Punts Blocked
2 7 1 1

The total tackles and 6 INTs are pretty impressive. I think you are selling Te'o a bit short. No, I don't think he deserves it over Manziel, but he should be in the discussion. Besides, he is the best player on arguably the best team in the country.

Once again, I think Manziel deserves it but if Notre Dame goes undefeated, Te'o will win the Heisman. I am hoping USC finds a way to beat them.

[Specnatz]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

Oh please, I don't care if his parents died in 9/11. The Heisman is supposed to be awarded to the best player in college football, not the one with biggest sob story. I do kind of wonder how people would react to him missing the funeral of his girlfriend over playing against Michigan though. People were pretty adamant about not missing an NFL game for the birth of a child in another thread, I can't believe the reaction would be different for a funeral of a family member.

WOW is all I got. You deserve negative rep for that because I am talking football and you are talking about something else entirely. You are the only one who brings up the underlying story.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

I hope Manziel gets the Heisman, and I think he deserves it, but it's hard to overlook the pity votes Teo will get from this story: http://youtu.be/j_P1rcOAwEA

Kind of weird that a devout Mormon would choose ND.

I know it's going to sound stupid... but isn't the Heisman a curse of sorts for QBs?

I'd much rather he not ever win the Heisman just so he doesn't have that monkey on his back in the future.

Stupid..... only if it doesn't work.


Edit
Damn, just looked. Carson Palmer, RG III, Cam Newton, & Sam Bradford.... limited success so far, but we'll see.

[Stemp]

Originally Posted by Say Watt

The total tackles and 6 INTs are pretty impressive. I think you are selling Te'o a bit short. No, I don't think he deserves it over Manziel, but he should be in the discussion. Besides, he is the best player on arguably the best team in the country.

Once again, I think Manziel deserves it but if Notre Dame goes undefeated, Te'o will win the Heisman. I am hoping USC finds a way to beat them.

Teo ranks 40th in total tackles (Dan Molls of Toledo leads at 148) but I will agree that 6 INT's is impressive for a LB and good enough for 2nd overall. Still, he doesn't blow anyone away with stats.

The only reason Te'o will win is if enough Heisman voters simply believe a freshman shouldn't win, even if he really is the best player in the country.

[Dan B.]

Originally Posted by Say Watt

Yep.

I'm afraid Johnny will get screwed just because he is a freshman, but there is no question that he is the best player in the country. Even his "bad" performances against LSU and Florida were probably the best individual performances against those two teams all year. Hell, Manziel has played against something like the #2, 4, and 5 ranked defenses this year. The guy is a redshirt freshman that has played multiple games against near NFL quality defenses.

There is no one more deserving of the Heisman this year. No one.

Umm was your TV broken last week?

Wallace (Ole Miss last week) vs LSU at Death Valley:
passing: 15/35 310 yds 8.9 per 2 TD 3 INT
Rushing: 11 Att 54 yds 4.9 per 2 TD 58 LNG

JFF vs LSU at Kyle:
passing: 29/56 276 yds 4.9 per 0 TD 3 INT
rushing: 17 Att 27 yds 1.6 per 0 TD 14 LNG

So overall Wallace had 50 more yards on half the completions which lead to twice as many yds per pass, twice the rushing yards, and 4 td's to 0. Yeah, Johnny had "probably the best individual performances against (LSU) all year." Oh well at least he impressed Sam Montgomery.

Not to mention his performance against Florida:

23/30 173 5.8 0 0

Compared to Bray (Tennessee):
22/44 257 5.8 2 2

Rodgers at Vandy:
17/31 237 7.6 1 0

or Louisiana Lafayette's Broadway:
16/23 171 7.4 0 0

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by Dan B.

Not to mention his performance against Florida:

23/30 173 5.8 0 0

Compared to Bray (Tennessee):
22/44 257 5.8 2 2

Rodgers at Vandy:
17/31 237 7.6 1 0

or Louisiana Lafayette's Broadway:
16/23 171 7.4 0 0

You're leaving out Manziel's rushing stats against Florida:
17 carries for 60 yards and a TD.

If you want to add in the rushing stats of the other 3 QBs, then it would look even better for him.

You're also leaving out the fact that it was Manziel's first game ever in the NCAA. Had they played later in the year, the outcome may have been different. He certainly has improved throughout the season. His passing ability in the Alabama game looked remarkably different compared to earlier in the season. The guy has 4100+ yards and 38 TDs this year, there's no question he deserves to win it. He's putting up Tebow 2007 type numbers against a similar schedule. By the way, that 2007 Tebow Heisman winning team was only 9-3 in the regular season. A 10-2 A&M team should seal it for him Saturday.

[Dan B.]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

You're leaving out Manziel's rushing stats against Florida:
17 carries for 60 yards and a TD.

If you want to add in the rushing stats of the other 3 QBs, then it would look even better for him.

You're also leaving out the fact that it was Manziel's first game ever in the NCAA. Had they played later in the year, the outcome may have been different. He certainly has improved throughout the season. His passing ability in the Alabama game looked remarkably different compared to earlier in the season. The guy has 4100+ yards and 38 TDs this year, there's no question he deserves to win it. He's putting up Tebow 2007 type numbers against a similar schedule. By the way, that 2007 Tebow Heisman winning team was only 9-3 in the regular season. A 10-2 A&M team should seal it for him Saturday.

Depends on how much later. It's not like Manziel lit it up against the Tigers two weeks before Halloween. BTW, Johnny's stats have been consistent throughout the year. His average QBR in the first 4 games was 171.5, the middle 3 was 123.2 (mainly due to LSU), and the last 4 his average is 184.5. His best rushing game was in week 7 against a team he was scheduled to play in his first ever game, and his best passing game was against the Hogs in week 5.

If Manziel has improved throughout the season, why did he look so bad against LSU? Heisman winning QB's don't have games like the one JFF had against LSU. It's not an award for most improved. It's an award for the best player all season long. What Heisman winning QB has ever laid an egg like those stats Manziel put up? Tebow didn't in 2007. RG III didn't last year. Cam never did either. He's ranked 22nd in QB rating, behind 3 other SEC QB's, David Ash, Nick Florence, and several others.

[Stemp]

Originally Posted by Dan B.

Depends on how much later. It's not like Manziel lit it up against the Tigers two weeks before Halloween. BTW, Johnny's stats have been consistent throughout the year. His average QBR in the first 4 games was 171.5, the middle 3 was 123.2 (mainly due to LSU), and the last 4 his average is 184.5. His best rushing game was in week 7 against a team he was scheduled to play in his first ever game, and his best passing game was against the Hogs in week 5.

If Manziel has improved throughout the season, why did he look so bad against LSU? Heisman winning QB's don't have games like the one JFF had against LSU. It's not an award for most improved. It's an award for the best player all season long. What Heisman winning QB has ever laid an egg like those stats Manziel put up? Tebow didn't in 2007. RG III didn't last year. Cam never did either. He's ranked 22nd in QB rating, behind 3 other SEC QB's, David Ash, Nick Florence, and several others.

303 yards total offense is laying an egg? It's a bad game yes with 3 INTs but it's hardly laying an egg.

Now, 3 solo tackles in a game against Wake Forest. That could be considered laying an egg.

[Dan B.]

Originally Posted by Stemp

303 yards total offense is laying an egg? It's a bad game yes with 3 INTs but it's hardly laying an egg.

Now, 3 solo tackles in a game against Wake Forest. That could be considered laying an egg.

Umm Johnny's 3 interceptions led to 14 LSU points, including their first TD and the dagger in the fourth. He also very nearly had a fourth INT (on the drive where A&M failed to convert William's spectacular return IIRC). One could easily make the case that Manziel lost that game for A&M. Te'os team held Wake Forest to 200 yards (since that's the number you feel matters), shut Wake out, and most importantly (since points scored vs points allowed IS what matters) won the game.

But I'm willing to work with you here. Since you're offended by the term "laid an egg" and prefer "had a bad game," let me phrase the question you failed to answer like this:

What Heisman winning QB has ever had as bad of a game as Manziel had against LSU?

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by Dan B.

Depends on how much later. It's not like Manziel lit it up against the Tigers two weeks before Halloween. BTW, Johnny's stats have been consistent throughout the year. His average QBR in the first 4 games was 171.5, the middle 3 was 123.2 (mainly due to LSU), and the last 4 his average is 184.5. His best rushing game was in week 7 against a team he was scheduled to play in his first ever game, and his best passing game was against the Hogs in week 5.

If Manziel has improved throughout the season, why did he look so bad against LSU? Heisman winning QB's don't have games like the one JFF had against LSU. It's not an award for most improved. It's an award for the best player all season long. What Heisman winning QB has ever laid an egg like those stats Manziel put up? Tebow didn't in 2007. RG III didn't last year. Cam never did either. He's ranked 22nd in QB rating, behind 3 other SEC QB's, David Ash, Nick Florence, and several others.

Wait, so are we counting rushing stats or not? Because Cam Newton was a poor passer in more than a couple games, but made up for it with his feet most of the time. He was actually pretty bad in their games against LSU, MSU, and UK, but he was able to overcome his passing deficiencies with his feet. Tebow had plenty of poor passing games as well.

In any case though, this isn't a competition among Heisman winners and hopefuls. Who's your pick for this year? Collin Klein? Teo? Marquis Lee? Who deserves it more than JFF? I can agree that the competition is not as difficult as previous years, but I don't see any of the other top 5 hopefuls as having a stronger case.

[Dan B.]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

Wait, so are we counting rushing stats or not? Because Cam Newton was a poor passer in more than a couple games, but made up for it with his feet most of the time. He was actually pretty bad in their games against LSU, MSU, and UK, but he was able to overcome his passing deficiencies with his feet. Tebow had plenty of poor passing games as well.

My post was referring to QB rating primarily (which if anything underrates rushing stats). I'm not asking whether Cam Newton or Tim Tebow had fewer total passing yards or rushing yards. Feel free to count his 27 rushing yards against the Tigers, although I'm guessing Stemp won't. I'm asking if any Heisman winning QB ever had a game like the one Johnny had against LSU.

I honestly don't know if anyone has had a game like that -- for all I know Ware, Weintze, or someone like that did and I just don't recall it. I used Tebow because he was brought up, and Cam and RGIII because they were the last two to win and I knew they didn't have a game like that.

In any case though, this isn't a competition among Heisman winners and hopefuls. Who's your pick for this year? Collin Klein? Teo? Marquis Lee? Who deserves it more than JFF? I can agree that the competition is not as difficult as previous years, but I don't see any of the other top 5 hopefuls as having a stronger case.

If Notre Dame beats USC, and especially if their defense holds the Trojans in check, I think T'eo wins it. I think arguments about how many solo tackles he has are silly, because as any fan of defense knows the stats on that side of the ball are much less indicative of the value of the player. They may not be getting tackles because they are taken out of the play.

I do think Manziel absolutely belongs on the podium. He could even eventually win 2. I just don't think that he'll win it this year. Putting aside his dismal LSU game:

Number of Freshmen to win the Heisman: 0
Number of 3,000 yards passers, 1,000 yards rushers to win the Heisman: 0

[Say Watt]

You must not have seen his interceptions in the LSU game either. One wasn't his fault at all (the Mike Evans tipped pass) and I believe another one was not completely his fault either. He did make some bad throws though. I just think you are severely overestimating how bad his game was against LSU. Take away one or two of the INTs which could be attributed to his receivers and it isn't a bad day at all against one of the best defenses in the country.

But dude, your t-sip bias is really shining through. I sure am glad to be out of the Big XII and not dealing with all the pretentious Cowgirls loving t-sips that think Vince Young is the only good QB in college football history.

[Stemp]

Originally Posted by Say Watt

But dude, your t-sip bias is really shining through. I sure am glad to be out of the Big XII and not dealing with all the pretentious Cowgirls loving t-sips that think Vince Young is the only good QB in college football history.

Shoot. I've seen some longhorns who are mad because Pittsburgh hasn't given VY a call. They honestly believe that Jeff Fischer has convinced every NFL team to blackball VY.

[Stemp]

Originally Posted by Dan B.

What Heisman winning QB has ever had as bad of a game as Manziel had against LSU?

2002: Carson Palmer went 18-of-46 for 186 yards and one touchdown in USC’s 27-20 early loss to Kansas State.

2003: Jason White went 27-of-50 for 298 yards with no touchdowns and two picks in Oklahoma’s 35-7 loss to Kansas State in the Big 12 title game.

2006: Troy Smith went 12-of-22 for 115 yards and one touchdown with two interceptions in Ohio State’s win over Penn State.

2007: Tim Tebow was 12-of-26 for 158 yards and two touchdowns with a pick in a mid-season loss to LSU.

2009: Mark Ingram had 30 yards and no touchdowns on 16 carries in a close win over Auburn in late November.

2011: Robert Griffin III threw for 425 yards and a score but also had two interceptions in a 59-24 loss to Oklahoma State.

http://heismanpundit.com/2012/10/17/...isman-winners/

[Dutchrudder]

Originally Posted by Dan B.

My post was referring to QB rating primarily (which if anything underrates rushing stats). I'm not asking whether Cam Newton or Tim Tebow had fewer total passing yards or rushing yards. Feel free to count his 27 rushing yards against the Tigers, although I'm guessing Stemp won't. I'm asking if any Heisman winning QB ever had a game like the one Johnny had against LSU.

I honestly don't know if anyone has had a game like that -- for all I know Ware, Weintze, or someone like that did and I just don't recall it. I used Tebow because he was brought up, and Cam and RGIII because they were the last two to win and I knew they didn't have a game like that.

It's a valid question, and I can't really answer it off the top of my head. I do recall RG3 having an awful game against an undefeated OK State, but covering it up in the stats with a bunch of garbage TDs. I recall him giving away that game in my mind, but I don't have it in front of me so I can't really check. However, I don't recall how much it hurt him in the voting, it was mid-season so maybe the timing was early enough to not affect him.

Iirc he had a rather poor game against a bad A&M defense last year too. Dunno if that qualifies as "laying an egg"

I don't think the one game should ruin Manziel's chances of winning, and the same goes for Colin Klein. That Baylor game alone shouldn't be enough to knock him out of the top 3, given all he accomplished up to that point. But comparing the two of them, I have to give it to Manziel.

If Notre Dame beats USC, and especially if their defense holds the Trojans in check, I think T'eo wins it. I think arguments about how many solo tackles he has are silly, because as any fan of defense knows the stats on that side of the ball are much less indicative of the value of the player. They may not be getting tackles because they are taken out of the play.

I do think Manziel absolutely belongs on the podium. He could even eventually win 2. I just don't think that he'll win it this year. Putting aside his dismal LSU game:

Number of Freshmen to win the Heisman: 0
Number of 3,000 yards passers, 1,000 yards rushers to win the Heisman: 0

Yeah, I'm not buying the Teo koolaide. I would much rather see Marquis Lee get it over him. Lee has had some insane games against good teams, although I'll admit haven't looked up their secondary rankings to compare. Honestly, I could vote him #1 over Manziel, he has been amazing this year and could be really special in years to come.

I really don't understand why Teo is in the discussion. Just look at this pic about Teo's stats and competition:



I'm not even sure if the INT against Michigan State shouldn't be a fumble recovery. The QB was running to the sideline and then either flips the ball sideways or just loses it somehow and it goes right to Teo. Kind of makes a difference if people are going to vote for him because of 6 INTs.

I think Shembo might be the best defensive player on that team. He gets lots of pressure, causes a ton disruption at the line. I know I have seen him make a lot of QB hits, and I think he's an interesting NFL draft prospect. Steven Tuitt is another seemingly unsung hero of that defense.

Going into this year, ND was expected to have the toughest strength of schedule, but it appears that was just hype. The Big 10 isn't nearly as strong as years past, and ND still struggled with some of those teams thanks to their anemic offense. They had trouble with teams like BYU, Purdue, and they nearly lost to Pitt in OT. I don't have a doubt in my mind that if Teo was on any other team in the nation, his name would never be mentioned for Heisman. But because he's on the Dallas Cowboys of college football, we might have an ILB with mediocre stats as the winner of the Heisman.

[thunderkyss]

hehehe....

[Specnatz]

Originally Posted by Dutchrudder

Going into this year, ND was expected to have the toughest strength of schedule, but it appears that was just hype. The Big 10 isn't nearly as strong as years past, and ND still struggled with some of those teams thanks to their anemic offense. They had trouble with teams like BYU, Purdue, and they nearly lost to Pitt in OT. I don't have a doubt in my mind that if Teo was on any other team in the nation, his name would never be mentioned for Heisman. But because he's on the Dallas Cowboys of college football, we might have an ILB with mediocre stats as the winner of the Heisman.

What ever your issue is with Notre Dame is and I have never kicked your dog or slept with any of your relatives I would kindly like you to stop the insults. Notre Dame is the complete opposite of the cowpies.

[Wolf]

I didnt honesty read any posts. My thoughts are that he won't win the heisman. Heck he is a freshman . With that thought I thought about the years past when someone one the heisman as the best player in college football, when was the last time they won the award for the corresponding award also?For example, IF manziel won the heisman (as best college football player), would he win the o'brien as best QB? I think he will win the o'brien and another will win the heisman. I could care less but find it funny that usually the heisman doesnt win the corresponding trophy tomthe position they play also( i could be wrong also,on this)

[Say Watt]

Originally Posted by Wolf

I didnt honesty read any posts. My thoughts are that he won't win the heisman. Heck he is a freshman . With that thought I thought about the years past when someone one the heisman as the best player in college football, when was the last time they won the award for the corresponding award also?For example, IF manziel won the heisman (as best college football player), would he win the o'brien as best QB? I think he will win the o'brien and another will win the heisman. I could care less but find it funny that usually the heisman doesnt win the corresponding trophy tomthe position they play also( i could be wrong also,on this)

Interesting. I would find it very surprising if guys like Palmer, Leinart, and other true pocket passers in college football that won the Heisman didn't also win their positional award.