Texans version of the WCO

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by paycheck71

I think they broke it down on NFL Turning Point on NBC Sports Network last year. My memory may not be as good as I think. Now I'm having second thoughts on whether they called the same play on a TD later in the game or on another 4th and 1.

Haha, at least you are unsure how good your memory is.
Personally, I KNOW my memory is NOT Any Good.

[Wolf]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

It seems a lot of people credited Alex Gibbs with the ZBS and WCO marriage.
Take this article for example:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...s-running-game


But I don't think we can be sure of that.
If you're interested I can provide some links for you to read up on and come up with your own conclusion.

As far as Kubiak offense, I think it's an evolution from the Broncos scheme.
I have several Broncos games from 2007 that I can review.
I had watched 3 so far, but I'd like to review some more to have a better idea.

Basically, it looks to me like: more formations, more motions, more ways for receivers to block, more play-action.
They combine to make a more complex offense.

Obviously, the Redskins are incorporating a bunch of zone reads (Baylor/Art Briles) into their play action pass and run such that they are quite different from us nowadays.

In his first two seasons in Houston, Kubiak's Texans went 14-18. For his third year, Kubiak brought on Gibbs to orchestrate the running game. Gibbs is gone now — he left Houston after a couple of seasons, then briefly joined Pete Carroll's staff in Seattle before retiring — but the Texans still use the Gibbs formula, which has been good enough to give them the second-best rushing attack in the league this season. What was Gibbs' magic and how can the Texans use it to make a playoff run, even with the NFL equivalent of John Q. Public at quarterback?

The key to Gibbs' zone running game is that the foundational play is the outside zone (the "wide zone," in Gibbs' terminology), not the more common inside zone. The inside zone is a "vertical push" play that aims to move the defense backward and have a running back carry the ball forward with a full head of steam to get yards. The outside zone is more about lateral movement. Each blocker first steps to the side rather than forward (and many coaches teach their linemen to take their first step backward, a technique referred to as "losing ground to gain ground"). The blockers then try to pin defenders to the inside — or if they can't do that, drive them to the sideline. Sometimes on these plays, the running back runs around the edge on a traditional-looking sweep. More often, the defense is stretched to its limit and the runner hits a crease and then sprints straight toward the end zone. When executed correctly, it's extremely taxing on the defense, as all of their instincts — aggressiveness to the ball carrier and fast pursuit — work against them, and linemen without great size or talent can open huge holes through excellent technique and discipline.

But if it's so good, why doesn't every NFL team use it? The answer is the same reason that, despite his legendary status, Gibbs has never lasted too long in one job. Gibbs' style of zone blocking requires total commitment by every offensive player — linemen must be perfect technicians, not just fat guys who push others around; runners must make reads and make "one-cut-and-go" plays rather than juke and tap dance like the next Barry Sanders; and quarterbacks and receivers can't treat runs as mini-breaks because they're expected to execute assignments and make blocks. The offense is also taxing on coaches. Gibbs will tell anyone willing to listen that if you want to be good at the wide zone and the tight zone, throw out all of your other run plays. All those wonderful Power O plays, Counter Trey plays, and whatever other fancy stuff you think you need — get rid of it. Instead, run two — yes, two — run plays, and run them against every defensive front you face until you get really good at them. To Gibbs, anything else is hubris.1

Interesting read. Thanks MSR

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Lucky

Where in either of the articles are they discussing the Texans? Interesting read, but you never brought it back to discussing the Texans.

Originally Posted by Specnatz

It is inferred since Kubiak worked under Shannahan.

I had sent a PM to Lucky to notify my transition to the Texans WCO; so far he has yet to respond.

[76Texan]

And he's been here.

I was really disappointed that he never attempted to respond to my PM after all that time!

[Lucky]

76Texan,
This is an somewhat interesting topic regarding the WCO, but it is not specific about the Texans. Posting articles from 2006 is not very topical to what is going on with the team in 2012. This would be better served as a blog post, really, as you go several posts without getting a comment.

Here is the header for the Texans Talk forum:

"Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management."

Not about the WCO offense, in general. Or the history of the WCO. What next? The history of the 3-4 and how the Texans defense fits in? The history of the playaction fake, and the Texans' implementation? Anything football related can be linked to the Texans. But is it directly about the Texans? If not, it belongs in a different forum.

BTW, what difference to you does it make what forum the thread resides in? It will stay on the first page of the NFL forum much longer than the Texans forum. The forum is crowded enough as is with current Texan news.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Lucky

76Texan,
This is an somewhat interesting topic regarding the WCO, but it is not specific about the Texans. Posting articles from 2006 is not very topical to what is going on with the team in 2012. This would be better served as a blog post, really, as you go several posts without getting a comment.

Here is the header for the Texans Talk forum:

"Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management."

Not about the WCO offense, in general. Or the history of the WCO. What next? The history of the 3-4 and how the Texans defense fits in? The history of the playaction fake, and the Texans' implementation? Anything football related can be linked to the Texans. But is it directly about the Texans? If not, it belongs in a different forum.

BTW, what difference to you does it make what forum the thread resides in? It will stay on the first page of the NFL forum much longer than the Texans forum. The forum is crowded enough as is with current Texan news.

I am really really sorry that you don't think a study of the WCO and the ZBS is relevant to the Texans.

You are doing a disservice to those who love Texans football.
I am really sorry to say.

You know I can start another thread with TC's blogs as an introduction.
I honestly don't know what is the beef with you.

I had kindly PMed you, and you never did respond.

Perhaps you need to do some soul searching; I really never want to go this far.
You could say that you forced my hand.

[76Texan]

Honestly, you may want to reconsider your responsibilty as a mod.
And I am saying this not because I may not like you as a person.

[Lucky]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Honestly, you may want to reconsider your responsibilty as a mod.
And I am saying this not because I may not like you as a person.

I'll take that under advisement. You might consider taking a chill pill.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Lucky

I'll take that under advisement. You might consider taking a chill pill.

I did, and I will take another one!

I hope you take your own advise. I never mean anything to be personal.
You may not understand this, really I don't take anything personal.


But you really need to resign as a mod.

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

I did, and I will take another one!

I hope you take your own advise. I never mean anything to be personal.
You may not understand this, really I don't take anything personal.


But you really need to resign as a mod.

Simmer down. Lucky is correct. This is general NFL material. Don't get hurt over where a thread goes.

[TimeKiller]

I think the Texans run quite a bit more power running plays than we think. Wade Smith does a few pulling block every game.

We've also seen the number of screen passes go from borderline over-the-top to nearly extinct. Is that due to a less athletic right side than previous years?

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

Simmer down. Lucky is correct. This is general NFL material. Don't get hurt over where a thread goes.

OK, so I have taken sometimes to chill down.

There was really nothing that has changed.

I understood that my starting the thread with a general reference is more conducive to the NFL forum.

On that part, he has the right as a mod to move the thread.

And that was why I had PMed Lucky to ask him whether he would move the thread back to the Texans forum, as I was about to make the transition to the Texans WCO.

He never answered my PM.

I could have easily started another thread in the main forum with an article that is directly related to the Texans WCO or my own study.

I did not want to make anything personal.

What would you do when the "authority" doesn't respond to your concern?

This is where I suggested that Lucky should resign as a Mod.

I had some comments that are more harsh, but I will refrain from it.

The main points here are:

- Having a clear definition; and there was - no complaint there.
- Responding to a request for a change of venue - never came.

That is abusive of power; in the USA, we don't stand for that!

[76Texan]

Now another point is that I don't even think I've ever started a thread in the NFL section.

I had narrowed it down to pretty much all Texans.

So if you can see where I'm coming from, all this moving thread is rather astounding.

I don't even spend anywhere near the poportionated time in the NFL forum.

It just blows my mind how certain people want to classify my thoughts in a certain category that is soooooo soooo far from where they are supposed to be!

[Double Barrel]

Individual mods don't live on the forum 24/7. There are many times where some of us might not log on for several days. Which explains why Vinny set up the mod squad, so at least one mod could be available at any given time. And even then, there are times when we, like, sleep and stuff.

If you did not get a quick answer to your PM, it might be because the particular mod had not logged in to see it. I doubt it was anything personal.

[Lucky]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

If you did not get a quick answer to your PM, it might be because the particular mod had not logged in to see it. I doubt it was anything personal.

It's not personal. I think 76Texan is a valued member (regardless of his feeling for me). I think we've given him a lot of slack in regards to posting numerous large pics in order to illustrate his points. Which other members have enjoyed.

I really think his post(s) on the WCO belong on a blog. Much like dalemurphy has utilized. Then provide a link to the blog, pointing to the specific Texans information in a thread here. But starting a thread where the Texans aren't even mentioned until the 8th post, and complaining that it is strictly about the Texans seems odd. Not to mention, the links provided were far from current.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with posting a thread in the NFL forum. It's not the black sheep of the board. Furthermore, the thread is more likely to stay on the front page of this forum than if it resided in the Texans forum.

No one bats 1.000 in making decisions here. We take our best guess based on what we've seen that works and doesn't work. Not everyone will agree with what we do 100% of the time. But, we're trying to do the best we can for everyone.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Individual mods don't live on the forum 24/7. There are many times where some of us might not log on for several days. Which explains why Vinny set up the mod squad, so at least one mod could be available at any given time. And even then, there are times when we, like, sleep and stuff.

If you did not get a quick answer to your PM, it might be because the particular mod had not logged in to see it. I doubt it was anything personal.

Trust me, I understand!

And it's good to hear another voice on the matter; I am really appreciative of your input.

Like I said, and many of you know that I'm not one to jump to a conclusion.
I gave the matter plenty of time; I always try to resolve matters out of public.

It's not that bad really, if only people communicate.

Lucky was there like I said;

I would understand if he wasn't, but he was and he never responded.

With much respect to you, DB.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Lucky

It's not personal. I think 76Texan is a valued member (regardless of his feeling for me). I think we've given him a lot of slack in regards to posting numerous large pics in order to illustrate his points. Which other members have enjoyed.

I really think his post(s) on the WCO belong on a blog. Much like dalemurphy has utilized. Then provide a link to the blog, pointing to the specific Texans information in a thread here. But starting a thread where the Texans aren't even mentioned until the 8th post, and complaining that it is strictly about the Texans seems odd. Not to mention, the links provided were far from current.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with posting a thread in the NFL forum. It's not the black sheep of the board. Furthermore, the thread is more likely to stay on the front page of this forum than if it resided in the Texans forum.

No one bats 1.000 in making decisions here. We take our best guess based on what we've seen that works and doesn't work. Not everyone will agree with what we do 100% of the time. But, we're trying to do the best we can for everyone.

Now if only you have responded to my PM like this, I wouldn't have no qualm.

But you never did!

[powda]

Originally Posted by Lucky

It's not personal. I think 76Texan is a valued member (regardless of his feeling for me). I think we've given him a lot of slack in regards to posting numerous large pics in order to illustrate his points. Which other members have enjoyed.

I really think his post(s) on the WCO belong on a blog. Much like dalemurphy has utilized. Then provide a link to the blog, pointing to the specific Texans information in a thread here. But starting a thread where the Texans aren't even mentioned until the 8th post, and complaining that it is strictly about the Texans seems odd. Not to mention, the links provided were far from current.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with posting a thread in the NFL forum. It's not the black sheep of the board. Furthermore, the thread is more likely to stay on the front page of this forum than if it resided in the Texans forum.

No one bats 1.000 in making decisions here. We take our best guess based on what we've seen that works and doesn't work. Not everyone will agree with what we do 100% of the time. But, we're trying to do the best we can for everyone.

As always 76, great content and you make this place more informative for me.

Lucky, I think you guys do a fantastic job.

[Double Barrel]

Originally Posted by Lucky

It's not personal. I think 76Texan is a valued member (regardless of his feeling for me). I think we've given him a lot of slack in regards to posting numerous large pics in order to illustrate his points. Which other members have enjoyed.

I really think his post(s) on the WCO belong on a blog. Much like dalemurphy has utilized. Then provide a link to the blog, pointing to the specific Texans information in a thread here. But starting a thread where the Texans aren't even mentioned until the 8th post, and complaining that it is strictly about the Texans seems odd. Not to mention, the links provided were far from current.

Finally, there's nothing wrong with posting a thread in the NFL forum. It's not the black sheep of the board. Furthermore, the thread is more likely to stay on the front page of this forum than if it resided in the Texans forum.

No one bats 1.000 in making decisions here. We take our best guess based on what we've seen that works and doesn't work. Not everyone will agree with what we do 100% of the time. But, we're trying to do the best we can for everyone.

yep. I actually check the NFL section first when I log on the forum. I'm a Texans fan, of course, but also a big NFL fan. Pro football is the only sport that I can watch two teams not from Houston and enjoy the heck out of it. My wife calls herself a "football widow" during the fall, because she knows that Sundays are dedicated to the games.

But back to the point, there is nothing wrong with the NFL section, and I think threads like this one really help all fans understand the fundamentals of the game. I think you mentioned it up thread, but this one would have been second page very quickly on the Texans forum. In the NFL section, it will probably stay first page for awhile.

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Now if only you have responded to my PM like this, I wouldn't have no qualm.

But you never did!

I can't speak for Lucky, but I am guilty of not seeing PMs. Sometimes I don't notice until days after it was sent to me. I always try to answer when I see them, but I never want anyone to think that I'm ignoring them. I simply don't notice it many times when I log in.

Originally Posted by powda

As always 76, great content and you make this place more informative for me.

Lucky, I think you guys do a fantastic job.

I agree with Lucky's sentiments about 76Texan and enjoy reading his analysis.

And thanks for the props. We are just regular fans like everyone else.

[infantrycak]

OK. Done with this. Anyone can call me the Nazi. Won't be the first time.