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Old 10-22-2012   #41
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

IMO, this is first game ever that Kubiak let the hounds loose. His philosophy remind me of an MMA fighter who takes his opponent to ground and hopes to hold on to get a submission. This game was like Bully Beat Down in that he allowed them up only long enough to take them down again. He used running plays to take time off but kep the passes mixed in to catch them off guard. Perfect game plan.
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Old 10-22-2012   #42
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by badboy View Post
IMO, this is first game ever that Kubiak let the hounds loose. His philosophy remind me of an MMA fighter who takes his opponent to ground and hopes to hold on to get a submission. This game was like Bully Beat Down in that he allowed them up only long enough to take them down again. He used running plays to take time off but kep the passes mixed in to catch them off guard. Perfect game plan.
What about Arian's breakout game against Indy? Or the trouncing of Tennessee last year, or the beat down in Jville & Tampa Bay? all pretty similar if you ask me.
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Old 10-22-2012   #43
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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
What about Arian's breakout game against Indy? Or the trouncing of Tennessee last year, or the beat down in Jville & Tampa Bay? all pretty similar if you ask me.
@Tennessee last year is a great example... Maybe because it was Baltimore it seems a bit more impressive, but i think Kubs called it more loosely @Tenn last year..

Of course the plays have to be executed..he's called it loose before, it just doesn't work so the way the game was called is forgotten...

Tampa Bay fits a little as well, but @Tenn last year was awesome...
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Old 10-22-2012   #44
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I do not disagree with you.

However, Kubiak is just calling the plays. I do not think Kubiak looks at 3 and out as a valid strategy. Every play is designed to be successful. Sometimes it is as simple as the players having to execute those plays. You can't really blame Kubiak if Schaub throws a ball to a receiver that is a yard short, or if they call a running play and some lineman blows his assignment. There's often a fine line between failure and success in the NFL. Sometimes that line is in control of the guys on the field.

exactly.. if the play call is executed .. then all is good.

when it doesn't. fans are saying "why didn't you do it the other thing?"

we passed early on green bay and people were complaining that we didn't run.. we ran early on the ravens and people complained that we didn't pass... hindsight is a beautiful thing with arm chair quarterbacks
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Old 10-22-2012   #45
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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exactly.. if the play call is executed .. then all is good.

when it doesn't. fans are saying "why didn't you do it the other thing?"


we passed early on green bay and people were complaining that we didn't run.. we ran early on the ravens and people complained that we didn't pass... hindsight is a beautiful thing with arm chair quarterbacks
Unfortunately, not many understand this concept.
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Old 10-22-2012   #46
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

I will show you what happened.
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Old 10-22-2012   #47
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
What about Arian's breakout game against Indy? Or the trouncing of Tennessee last year, or the beat down in Jville & Tampa Bay? all pretty similar if you ask me.
One player (Arian) is not what I'm talking about. Tennessee is no AFC threat & to me is not comparable to putting accelerator down on a 5-1 team and not going conservative when we get a lead. Just my opinion. Beating up on a weak sister is not impressive. Going balls to the wall against Baltimore, priceless!
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Old 10-22-2012   #48
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
exactly.. if the play call is executed .. then all is good.

when it doesn't. fans are saying "why didn't you do it the other thing?"

we passed early on green bay and people were complaining that we didn't run.. we ran early on the ravens and people complained that we didn't pass... hindsight is a beautiful thing with arm chair quarterbacks
GB was known to have a poor defense against run and we continued to pass.

Against Balti, we went 3 and out first two series running and Kubiak then changed his ways and our offense began to move.
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Old 10-23-2012   #49
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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I do not disagree with you.

However, Kubiak is just calling the plays. I do not think Kubiak looks at 3 and out as a valid strategy. Every play is designed to be successful. Sometimes it is as simple as the players having to execute those plays. You can't really blame Kubiak if Schaub throws a ball to a receiver that is a yard short, or if they call a running play and some lineman blows his assignment. There's often a fine line between failure and success in the NFL. Sometimes that line is in control of the guys on the field.
Yeah man, but the point is the plays Kubiak has traditionally called are far too predictable. I know you watch the games so ask yourself how many times you have seen this team in the late third/early fourth quarter just run 3 straight downs and punt the ball multiple drives in a row? That's all well and good against the Gabbert's and Sanchez's of the world, but it doesn't work so well against the Rodger's and the Brady's of the world. You have to be willing and ready to step on their throats. Throw the ball a little. Keep the defense honest.

Anyway, I sincerely hope this is a new Kubiak. I need to see it a couple more times to believe it though. I am ecstatic about what I saw. I hope I see it more often. Go Texans!!
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Old 10-23-2012   #50
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by Say Watt View Post
Yeah man, but the point is the plays Kubiak has traditionally called are far too predictable. I know you watch the games so ask yourself how many times you have seen this team in the late third/early fourth quarter just run 3 straight downs and punt the ball multiple drives in a row? That's all well and good against the Gabbert's and Sanchez's of the world, but it doesn't work so well against the Rodger's and the Brady's of the world. You have to be willing and ready to step on their throats. Throw the ball a little. Keep the defense honest.

Anyway, I sincerely hope this is a new Kubiak. I need to see it a couple more times to believe it though. I am ecstatic about what I saw. I hope I see it more often. Go Texans!!
Concerns about predictability of play calling when protecting a lead is valid. That thought crossed my mind last night when thinking about this subject, as well.

It's a symbiotic relationship between the coaches and players. The coaches have to call the right plays and the players have to try to make those plays successful. While I agree that the head coach is ultimately responsible at the end of the day, part of his job is to keep the players from mentally taking a break during games when they have a lead, as well.

I'm not against the percentage strategy that Kubiak employs to protect leads. But, like most of y'all, I agree that it needs to be less predictable. If I'm calling the plays before the hike from my couch, I have no doubt that the opposing defensive coordinator knows, as well.

Like I said, it's a fine line to balance, but, always keep in mind that Kubiak is doing what great head coaches before him taught him to do in those situations.
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Old 10-23-2012   #51
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Concerns about predictability of play calling when protecting a lead is valid. That thought crossed my mind last night when thinking about this subject, as well.

It's a symbiotic relationship between the coaches and players. The coaches have to call the right plays and the players have to try to make those plays successful. While I agree that the head coach is ultimately responsible at the end of the day, part of his job is to keep the players from mentally taking a break during games when they have a lead, as well.

I'm not against the percentage strategy that Kubiak employs to protect leads. But, like most of y'all, I agree that it needs to be less predictable. If I'm calling the plays before the hike from my couch, I have no doubt that the opposing defensive coordinator knows, as well.

Like I said, it's a fine line to balance, but, always keep in mind that Kubiak is doing what great head coaches before him taught him to do in those situations.
A great HC would use that 3rd and long draw play all season long, then pull a flea-flicker on that same scenario in a playoff game when he needs it most.

All I can think is that Kubiak is (a) trusting his defense and maybe (b) baiting teams to fall for a deceptive 3rd and long play that an opposing d-coord has scouted and scouted on film...and yet that d-coord doesn't know the fireworks are about to begin on them.

I want to think that, but it's Kubiak we're dealing with here. I might be giving him too much credit for deploying strategy like that for the one-time use of a flea flicker or PA pass or something. LOL. More than likely, he's just giving the defense a chance to make something happen that he couldn't.
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Old 10-23-2012   #52
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I do not disagree with you.

However, Kubiak is just calling the plays. I do not think Kubiak looks at 3 and out as a valid strategy. Every play is designed to be successful. Sometimes it is as simple as the players having to execute those plays. You can't really blame Kubiak if Schaub throws a ball to a receiver that is a yard short, or if they call a running play and some lineman blows his assignment. There's often a fine line between failure and success in the NFL. Sometimes that line is in control of the guys on the field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
exactly.. if the play call is executed .. then all is good.

when it doesn't. fans are saying "why didn't you do it the other thing?"

we passed early on green bay and people were complaining that we didn't run.. we ran early on the ravens and people complained that we didn't pass... hindsight is a beautiful thing with arm chair quarterbacks
Rep to you both.

This is where I am. All plays are designed to accomplish something. Whether that thing is a one yd plunge for a first down (or TD) or whether it's a deep bomb. The thing in common is the players - all of them - have to do their job (as we've heard Belichick say time & again). When even one of them doesn't - or just simply get's beat - the play fails. Yet time and again, fans blame the coaching.

Is it really bad play calling if a pass designed to get 8-10 yds only gets 7 because blocking broke down and the QB had to throw it early or the WR failed do get a clean release and was a step behind schedule on a timing route?? ...or if a run designed to get 5-6 yds gets stuffed because a guard/tackle gets beat and the DL gets penetration??
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Old 10-23-2012   #53
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
I do not disagree with you.

However, Kubiak is just calling the plays. I do not think Kubiak looks at 3 and out as a valid strategy. Every play is designed to be successful. Sometimes it is as simple as the players having to execute those plays.
Quote:
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exactly.. if the play call is executed .. then all is good.

when it doesn't. fans are saying "why didn't you do it the other thing?"
I'm kind of tired of beating this dead horse, but in one last attempt to clarify ....

When a coach calls a play and it fails, that's on the players. When the coach calls that play in the same situation later on, that's a coach challenging his players. Somewhere between that point and 6.5 years into his head coaching career, he ought to have developed the ability to recognize when he needs to adjust. If you feel like Kubiak is the master of adjusting, playing the chess game against other coaches, and is generally out-coaching the competition, then there's not much I can say about that. I'm not saying that's how you feel; just putting it in stark contrast.

In addition to that, I almost never want to see a play called that has no chance to succeed. That 3rd and long draw play, especially when you habitually put it on film for everyone to anticipate, is exactly that. No one's saying call a Hail Mary on 3rd and long, but mix it up. Call a screen play, call a clear-out underneath crossing pattern, try a bubble screen, try a pitch play ... hell, ANYTHING that isn't excessively risky. He's built a Super Bowl team. If he can't trust them to run a medium-low risk play without turning the ball over, then they either aren't as good as we all think, or he has a control issue.
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Old 10-23-2012   #54
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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I'm kind of tired of beating this dead horse, but in one last attempt to clarify ....

When a coach calls a play and it fails, that's on the players. When the coach calls that play in the same situation later on, that's a coach challenging his players. Somewhere between that point and 6.5 years into his head coaching career, he ought to have developed the ability to recognize when he needs to adjust. If you feel like Kubiak is the master of adjusting, playing the chess game against other coaches, and is generally out-coaching the competition, then there's not much I can say about that. I'm not saying that's how you feel; just putting it in stark contrast.

In addition to that, I almost never want to see a play called that has no chance to succeed. That 3rd and long draw play, especially when you habitually put it on film for everyone to anticipate, is exactly that. No one's saying call a Hail Mary on 3rd and long, but mix it up. Call a screen play, call a clear-out underneath crossing pattern, try a bubble screen, try a pitch play ... hell, ANYTHING that isn't excessively risky. He's built a Super Bowl team. If he can't trust them to run a medium-low risk play without turning the ball over, then they either aren't as good as we all think, or he has a control issue.
Dude.... Name me a head coach that isn't a control freak (probably on multiple levels) and I'll show you one that's lost his locker room and will soon be unemployed.
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Old 10-23-2012   #55
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Dude.... Name me a head coach that isn't a control freak (probably on multiple levels) and I'll show you one that's lost his locker room and will soon be unemployed.
The good ones don't let it get to the point that it's a detriment to their team.
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Old 11-01-2012   #56
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Pure speculation, but here goes:

Kuharsky reported that Kubiak called out the Captains this past week.

I do wonder, though, if Matt Schaub had a sit down with Coach K and voiced his own opinions of what had gone wrong...what HAS gone wrong many times when we've lost games we should have won.

Remember Schaub over on the sideline during the early moments of the GB game last Sunday night? He said very plainly (A lot of people in the game thread saw it) "This is BULL****."

Now, what is bull****? GB being GB is not bull****...that's who they had been and should be this year, so it's not GB he's talking about. Is it his fellow teammates who are bull****? I doubt it. Schaub is the consummate professional when it comes to treating his fellow teammates...he's no Jay Cutler.

My theory, and I know it's just a theory, is that there was a mild intervention of some sorts whereby someone or a group of someones voices their displeasure with the conservative nature of this offense.

Look, I know we were winning games up until last week's nightmare. Truth be told, though, we were showing patterns and tendencies of sort of sandbagging it on offense...taking possessions off, so to speak. There were far too many times that this defense was bailing out the offense.

I had said in the early days of Wade's hiring that IF this defense got to be crazy scary awesome...it could become a problem down the line for this team. I'm not talking a full revolt of Buddy Ryan and Kevin Gilbride proportions, I meant that there could exist some turmoil between the two units if a defense is consistently bailing out an offense.

To me, it is arguable that Wade's defense was shouldering far too much of the load in the first 5 games of this season...a trend that was building since last season, IMO. I think the GB game, without Cushing, is where our defense collectively sandbagged it. OK, probably not JJ Watt because he's like a one-man army on every snap and probably in practice too. I'm only theorizing that it's possible that the whole team got into a funk and although Gary had a talk with the Captains, I wonder if someone had a talk with the General himself.

Because what I saw vs. Ravens was THE most electric performance on both sides of the ball. It's not just a coincidence that the defense made Herculean plays all game long, yesterday, after having such a huge turd just a week prior. The offense was shark-like all game long, never stopping and sandbagging it like a traditional Kubiak offense has in the past.

There was aggressiveness not just in play, but in playCALLING as well.

It was the first truly dominant performance I have seen by this team. It's the type of performance you see out of Saints/Patriots/Green Bay. The teams we said we want to emulate in our aggressiveness in terms of play calling.

I'm just saying that it's possible that accountability worked its way upward and not just down the hill this time. I would think that Matt Schaub is the type of leader who would cash in quite a bit of equity that he might have been storing up for a rainy day. Thoughts?
I like this theory. I can imagine ...
<fantasy>
that meeting where Kub tells his captains what he wants, and then there's a pregnant silence. Schaub looks Kubiak directly in the eye and says, "OK, but you need to turn us loose on offense. Let us go for the kill until it's over. Let's play each possession like we're down by 6. If you trust us, we'll win this game by 30 points." Another silence, as everyone in the room realizes that the expression of this sentiment was long in coming. Then Kubiak just says, "Deal."

After the game and the locker room speeches and most have left for home, Schaub and Kubiak just look at each other. Nothing is said, as nothing needs to be said -- Schaub had made his point.
</fantasy>

And if this fantasy meeting did happen, we may see it in this otherwise forgettable game against the Bills. I want to see how aggressive we are if we build up a sizable early lead.
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Old 11-02-2012   #57
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

You guys aren't turtle enough for the turtle club anyway...
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Old 11-02-2012   #58
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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I like this theory. I can imagine ...
<fantasy>
that meeting where Kub tells his captains what he wants, and then there's a pregnant silence. Schaub looks Kubiak directly in the eye and says, "OK, but you need to turn us loose on offense. Let us go for the kill until it's over. Let's play each possession like we're down by 6. If you trust us, we'll win this game by 30 points." Another silence, as everyone in the room realizes that the expression of this sentiment was long in coming. Then Kubiak just says, "Deal."

After the game and the locker room speeches and most have left for home, Schaub and Kubiak just look at each other. Nothing is said, as nothing needs to be said -- Schaub had made his point.
</fantasy>

And if this fantasy meeting did happen, we may see it in this otherwise forgettable game against the Bills. I want to see how aggressive we are if we build up a sizable early lead.
The important words are in bold.

It's not the play calling that doesn't pick up the first downs to stay on the field & take a shot down field.
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Old 11-02-2012   #59
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
I'm kind of tired of beating this dead horse, but in one last attempt to clarify ....

When a coach calls a play and it fails, that's on the players. When the coach calls that play in the same situation later on, that's a coach challenging his players. Somewhere between that point and 6.5 years into his head coaching career, he ought to have developed the ability to recognize when he needs to adjust. If you feel like Kubiak is the master of adjusting, playing the chess game against other coaches, and is generally out-coaching the competition, then there's not much I can say about that. I'm not saying that's how you feel; just putting it in stark contrast.

In addition to that, I almost never want to see a play called that has no chance to succeed. That 3rd and long draw play, especially when you habitually put it on film for everyone to anticipate, is exactly that. No one's saying call a Hail Mary on 3rd and long, but mix it up. Call a screen play, call a clear-out underneath crossing pattern, try a bubble screen, try a pitch play ... hell, ANYTHING that isn't excessively risky. He's built a Super Bowl team. If he can't trust them to run a medium-low risk play without turning the ball over, then they either aren't as good as we all think, or he has a control issue.
Not trying to compare coaches, but Belichick calls a draw play on 3rd and 17 and they get 18 yards and a first down. Genius? Only if it's a success, of course.

I'm no apologist for Kubiak. However, I think some criticism originates from conditioned attitudes from previous years. Not pointing at you as an individual, but just the fan base in general.

I have specifically paid attention to other games and play calling by teams with leads. And what Kubiak does is not much different than any other coach in the league, including ones that have won Super Bowls.

You are right in that "He's built a Super Bowl team." So they should act and perform like it accordingly, if you know what I mean.
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