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Old 10-22-2012   #21
fiasco west
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

I don't think the ultra-conservative stuff is gone.

I think there is a time to be ultra conservative and then there is a time to be more assertive.

When you are playing bad teams, then I think you should be more careful. The only way you lose those games is if you beat yourself any ways.
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Old 10-22-2012   #22
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco west View Post
I don't think the ultra-conservative stuff is gone.

I think there is a time to be ultra conservative and then there is a time to be more assertive.

When you are playing bad teams, then I think you should be more careful. The only way you lose those games is if you beat yourself any ways.
I think it is the same way when you play the good teams. Since 2009, I've felt the only team that could beat the Texans were the Texans & it happened time & time again (yeah, there was that bad defense thing in 2010, but even then the offense was clicking enough to win many of those games).

Shooting ourselves in the foot has been our identity for a long time. I don't have a problem with Gary calling off the dogs & just trying to win (or not lose). I believe there is good reason for it.

Like yesterday, there are times where you'll see everything is going our way & we continue to play Texans football. Run it down their throats, then catch them napping & punch them in the mouth.
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Old 10-22-2012   #23
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
I think it is the same way when you play the good teams. Since 2009, I've felt the only team that could beat the Texans were the Texans & it happened time & time again (yeah, there was that bad defense thing in 2010, but even then the offense was clicking enough to win many of those games).

Shooting ourselves in the foot has been our identity for a long time. I don't have a problem with Gary calling off the dogs & just trying to win (or not lose). I believe there is good reason for it.

Like yesterday, there are times where you'll see everything is going our way & we continue to play Texans football. Run it down their throats, then catch them napping & punch them in the mouth.
Yeah you are right about that. A lot of times the team that just makes less mistakes when the games.

Fumbles, Muffed punts, INTs, any turnover can absolutely kill you. Just look at yesterday. The fumble that almost was by Mercilus and then the sack that was a safety is exactly the reason why you don't want to drop back and go deep down in your own endzone.
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Old 10-22-2012   #24
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

Pure speculation, but here goes:

Kuharsky reported that Kubiak called out the Captains this past week.

I do wonder, though, if Matt Schaub had a sit down with Coach K and voiced his own opinions of what had gone wrong...what HAS gone wrong many times when we've lost games we should have won.

Remember Schaub over on the sideline during the early moments of the GB game last Sunday night? He said very plainly (A lot of people in the game thread saw it) "This is BULL****."

Now, what is bull****? GB being GB is not bull****...that's who they had been and should be this year, so it's not GB he's talking about. Is it his fellow teammates who are bull****? I doubt it. Schaub is the consummate professional when it comes to treating his fellow teammates...he's no Jay Cutler.

My theory, and I know it's just a theory, is that there was a mild intervention of some sorts whereby someone or a group of someones voices their displeasure with the conservative nature of this offense.

Look, I know we were winning games up until last week's nightmare. Truth be told, though, we were showing patterns and tendencies of sort of sandbagging it on offense...taking possessions off, so to speak. There were far too many times that this defense was bailing out the offense.

I had said in the early days of Wade's hiring that IF this defense got to be crazy scary awesome...it could become a problem down the line for this team. I'm not talking a full revolt of Buddy Ryan and Kevin Gilbride proportions, I meant that there could exist some turmoil between the two units if a defense is consistently bailing out an offense.

To me, it is arguable that Wade's defense was shouldering far too much of the load in the first 5 games of this season...a trend that was building since last season, IMO. I think the GB game, without Cushing, is where our defense collectively sandbagged it. OK, probably not JJ Watt because he's like a one-man army on every snap and probably in practice too. I'm only theorizing that it's possible that the whole team got into a funk and although Gary had a talk with the Captains, I wonder if someone had a talk with the General himself.

Because what I saw vs. Ravens was THE most electric performance on both sides of the ball. It's not just a coincidence that the defense made Herculean plays all game long, yesterday, after having such a huge turd just a week prior. The offense was shark-like all game long, never stopping and sandbagging it like a traditional Kubiak offense has in the past.

There was aggressiveness not just in play, but in playCALLING as well.

It was the first truly dominant performance I have seen by this team. It's the type of performance you see out of Saints/Patriots/Green Bay. The teams we said we want to emulate in our aggressiveness in terms of play calling.

I'm just saying that it's possible that accountability worked its way upward and not just down the hill this time. I would think that Matt Schaub is the type of leader who would cash in quite a bit of equity that he might have been storing up for a rainy day. Thoughts?
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Old 10-22-2012   #25
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco west View Post
Yeah you are right about that. A lot of times the team that just makes less mistakes when the games.

Fumbles, Muffed punts, INTs, any turnover can absolutely kill you. Just look at yesterday. The fumble that almost was by Mercilus and then the sack that was a safety is exactly the reason why you don't want to drop back and go deep down in your own endzone.
That's one of those "high risk/high reward" type of plays that when it works, the coach looks like a genius, and when it doesn't, everyone is questioning the coaches call. Like when it happened to the Texans in Denver. If they would have lost that game I wonder how many more people would have wanted Kubes fired. So I wonder how many Ravens fans want Harbaugh fired today because of that play.
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Old 10-22-2012   #26
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
Pure speculation, but here goes:

Kuharsky reported that Kubiak called out the Captains this past week.

I do wonder, though, if Matt Schaub had a sit down with Coach K and voiced his own opinions of what had gone wrong...what HAS gone wrong many times when we've lost games we should have won.

Remember Schaub over on the sideline during the early moments of the GB game last Sunday night? He said very plainly (A lot of people in the game thread saw it) "This is BULL****."

Now, what is bull****? GB being GB is not bull****...that's who they had been and should be this year, so it's not GB he's talking about. Is it his fellow teammates who are bull****? I doubt it. Schaub is the consummate professional when it comes to treating his fellow teammates...he's no Jay Cutler.

My theory, and I know it's just a theory, is that there was a mild intervention of some sorts whereby someone or a group of someones voices their displeasure with the conservative nature of this offense.

Look, I know we were winning games up until last week's nightmare. Truth be told, though, we were showing patterns and tendencies of sort of sandbagging it on offense...taking possessions off, so to speak. There were far too many times that this defense was bailing out the offense.

I had said in the early days of Wade's hiring that IF this defense got to be crazy scary awesome...it could become a problem down the line for this team. I'm not talking a full revolt of Buddy Ryan and Kevin Gilbride proportions, I meant that there could exist some turmoil between the two units if a defense is consistently bailing out an offense.

To me, it is arguable that Wade's defense was shouldering far too much of the load in the first 5 games of this season...a trend that was building since last season, IMO. I think the GB game, without Cushing, is where our defense collectively sandbagged it. OK, probably not JJ Watt because he's like a one-man army on every snap and probably in practice too. I'm only theorizing that it's possible that the whole team got into a funk and although Gary had a talk with the Captains, I wonder if someone had a talk with the General himself.

Because what I saw vs. Ravens was THE most electric performance on both sides of the ball. It's not just a coincidence that the defense made Herculean plays all game long, yesterday, after having such a huge turd just a week prior. The offense was shark-like all game long, never stopping and sandbagging it like a traditional Kubiak offense has in the past.

There was aggressiveness not just in play, but in playCALLING as well.

It was the first truly dominant performance I have seen by this team. It's the type of performance you see out of Saints/Patriots/Green Bay. The teams we said we want to emulate in our aggressiveness in terms of play calling.

I'm just saying that it's possible that accountability worked its way upward and not just down the hill this time. I would think that Matt Schaub is the type of leader who would cash in quite a bit of equity that he might have been storing up for a rainy day. Thoughts?
as opposed to usually :P

rest of the post is pure BS obviously. kubes is a smart guy and always self evaluates. there 2 chances he'd need to be intervened with. i still think he saves the plays and stuff for when they're really needed. if we're in 3rd and 17 in a tight playoff game, i think he'll have something better than a draw

were we not aggressive in the broncos etc? did the D sandbag the second half of that because we were being too aggressive?
why do you waste your time on posts like that?^
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Old 10-22-2012   #27
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco west View Post
I don't think the ultra-conservative stuff is gone.

I think there is a time to be ultra conservative and then there is a time to be more assertive.

When you are playing bad teams, then I think you should be more careful. The only way you lose those games is if you beat yourself any ways.
I completely agree with that. I just don't trust Kubiak to always make the right decision as to when. Judging by the posts in the stream of consciousness gameday thread in the heat of the moment, my fellow fans do not trust the man, either.

When the team plays QBs like Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Manning, I do not want to see a let-up at all. Unfortunately, that's exactly what he's done. This team had the Saints on the ropes last year before losing it. They had all but blown out the Broncos this year before letting them back into it. When you face a team with a great QB and you get the early lead, you have to bury them.

Now, the time to be conservative is when you can effectively be conservative. The last 20 minutes of game time yesterday was spent running the ball. I have no heartburn with that because it's the smart thing to do, as long as you're churning out first downs. In games past, they were doing 3 and out when they tried to run it late and subsequently letting the other team back in it. They let the Broncos back in it so much that it basically came down to a 3rd down must-have pass to AJ for a first down. Should have buried them sooner.
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Old 10-22-2012   #28
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
Pure speculation, but here goes:

Kuharsky reported that Kubiak called out the Captains this past week.

I do wonder, though, if Matt Schaub had a sit down with Coach K and voiced his own opinions of what had gone wrong...what HAS gone wrong many times when we've lost games we should have won.
I think you're working overtime on this one. I know Kubiak controls what gets out of the locker room, but if something like you are "speculating" went down I'd like to think we'd have heard about a "team meeting" or a "Captain's meeting"

But if this did happen, all I can say is about time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
My theory, and I know it's just a theory, is that there was a mild intervention of some sorts whereby someone or a group of someones voices their displeasure with the conservative nature of this offense.
I'm pretty sure Schaub, Dennison, & Kubiak are involved with putting the script together. If Schaub was not happy with the opening script to the Greenbay game, I don't think he would have been upset with just Kubiak.

Now, maybe he was overridden on a bunch of the plays that made it to the script & he was showing his frustration thinking the plays he wanted (but didn't make it) would have worked better. Again, that's speculating on your speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post

I'm just saying that it's possible that accountability worked its way upward and not just down the hill this time. I would think that Matt Schaub is the type of leader who would cash in quite a bit of equity that he might have been storing up for a rainy day. Thoughts?
Again, I'm saying about time.
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Old 10-22-2012   #29
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by Insideop View Post
That's one of those "high risk/high reward" type of plays that when it works, the coach looks like a genius, and when it doesn't, everyone is questioning the coaches call. Like when it happened to the Texans in Denver. If they would have lost that game I wonder how many more people would have wanted Kubes fired. So I wonder how many Ravens fans want Harbaugh fired today because of that play.
It happened too early in the game. A competent team would have been able to overcome it. It was a factor in the game, no doubt, but a good team don't lose because they're down by 2 or 5 or 9 early in a game.

So I wouldn't have blamed Owen Daniels if we lost that Bronco's game, even though he gave up that safety to start the game. I didn't blame a certain someone who muffed a punt in a play-off game. Not when we are seeing teams overcome 14+ deficits in the 4th Qtr on a weekly basis.
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Old 10-22-2012   #30
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by Maddict5 View Post
as opposed to usually :P

rest of the post is pure BS obviously. kubes is a smart guy and always self evaluates. there 2 chances he'd need to be intervened with. i still think he saves the plays and stuff for when they're really needed. if we're in 3rd and 17 in a tight playoff game, i think he'll have something better than a draw

were we not aggressive in the broncos etc? did the D sandbag the second half of that because we were being too aggressive?
why do you waste your time on posts like that?^
It's not wasting my time. You obviously read it, so maybe YOU wasted YOUR time????

All you had to do was skip it or ignore it, no need to bash me for posting a question and asking for feedback. Trash talking is not feedback, it's just being a colossal asshat for no good reason. But that's par for the course with you.
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Old 10-22-2012   #31
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
It's not wasting my time. You obviously read it, so maybe YOU wasted YOUR time????

All you had to do was skip it or ignore it, no need to bash me for posting a question and asking for feedback. Trash talking is not feedback, it's just being a colossal asshat for no good reason. But that's par for the course with you.
touchy.. sorry if i hit a sore spot but settle down. wasnt bashing just wondering why you always have a tinfoil hat theory for everything, posted an example (broncos game) to discredit same theory...which you didnt respond to cos you were too busy responding to my 'trash talking'

and yes i wasted a couple mins reading and replying. i expect you spent quite a bit longer posting..
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Old 10-22-2012   #32
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post
It happened too early in the game. A competent team would have been able to overcome it. It was a factor in the game, no doubt, but a good team don't lose because they're down by 2 or 5 or 9 early in a game.

So I wouldn't have blamed Owen Daniels if we lost that Bronco's game, even though he gave up that safety to start the game. I didn't blame a certain someone who muffed a punt in a play-off game. Not when we are seeing teams overcome 14+ deficits in the 4th Qtr on a weekly basis.
This isn't about blaming players when they make a mistake. It's about blaming coaches for their play calling. This is about people who don't like Kubiak's play calling, whether it's too conservative or not. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that no matter what Kubiak does it's always wrong to some people on this board. They will never be happy until he is gone! And I wonder just how many of those type of fans are in Baltimore wanting to get rid of Harbaugh for making the same type of play call early in the game, which did turn the momentum.
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Old 10-22-2012   #33
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

It was amazing I even heard some fans saying Kubes was TOO aggressive.
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Old 10-22-2012   #34
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Originally Posted by rolyat93 View Post
It was amazing I even heard some fans saying Kubes was TOO aggressive.

The only time I ever thought Kubiak was too aggressive, was our play-off game vs the Ravens.
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Old 10-22-2012   #35
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

I actually wanted him to drop 50, we were right there with a min left, we had that in the bag but nope.. Oh well lol
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Old 10-22-2012   #36
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GP View Post
Pure speculation, but here goes:

Kuharsky reported that Kubiak called out the Captains this past week.

I do wonder, though, if Matt Schaub had a sit down with Coach K and voiced his own opinions of what had gone wrong...what HAS gone wrong many times when we've lost games we should have won.

Remember Schaub over on the sideline during the early moments of the GB game last Sunday night? He said very plainly (A lot of people in the game thread saw it) "This is BULL****."

Now, what is bull****? GB being GB is not bull****...that's who they had been and should be this year, so it's not GB he's talking about. Is it his fellow teammates who are bull****? I doubt it. Schaub is the consummate professional when it comes to treating his fellow teammates...he's no Jay Cutler.

My theory, and I know it's just a theory, is that there was a mild intervention of some sorts whereby someone or a group of someones voices their displeasure with the conservative nature of this offense.

Look, I know we were winning games up until last week's nightmare. Truth be told, though, we were showing patterns and tendencies of sort of sandbagging it on offense...taking possessions off, so to speak. There were far too many times that this defense was bailing out the offense.

I had said in the early days of Wade's hiring that IF this defense got to be crazy scary awesome...it could become a problem down the line for this team. I'm not talking a full revolt of Buddy Ryan and Kevin Gilbride proportions, I meant that there could exist some turmoil between the two units if a defense is consistently bailing out an offense.

To me, it is arguable that Wade's defense was shouldering far too much of the load in the first 5 games of this season...a trend that was building since last season, IMO. I think the GB game, without Cushing, is where our defense collectively sandbagged it. OK, probably not JJ Watt because he's like a one-man army on every snap and probably in practice too. I'm only theorizing that it's possible that the whole team got into a funk and although Gary had a talk with the Captains, I wonder if someone had a talk with the General himself.

Because what I saw vs. Ravens was THE most electric performance on both sides of the ball. It's not just a coincidence that the defense made Herculean plays all game long, yesterday, after having such a huge turd just a week prior. The offense was shark-like all game long, never stopping and sandbagging it like a traditional Kubiak offense has in the past.

There was aggressiveness not just in play, but in playCALLING as well.

It was the first truly dominant performance I have seen by this team. It's the type of performance you see out of Saints/Patriots/Green Bay. The teams we said we want to emulate in our aggressiveness in terms of play calling.

I'm just saying that it's possible that accountability worked its way upward and not just down the hill this time. I would think that Matt Schaub is the type of leader who would cash in quite a bit of equity that he might have been storing up for a rainy day. Thoughts?
Yah, i saw the Schauby "BS"-bomb...loved it btw...

What i took away from that moment was Schaub just letting it out, because poor play from all over had finally added up and Kubiak not going for it triggered the reaction.. Receivers weren't getting open, the running game sucked, the defense was getting torched...

I remember a third down near/inside the redzone where Schaub was able to sit back in the pocket and clip his fingernails... Even got in a couple'a toes as well..i mean the line gave him enough time to check his receivers twice, but no one was open... when the line finally let a guy through, Schaub threw the ball away in disgust, maybe at Foster's feet (I don't remember)... It wasn't just play-calling and/or strategy that was getting to him, he was pissed at everyone...

So as for theories, i bet Matty went into the locker room after that game and ripped everyone's ass (cept Watt i hope)...something about him this year, it just seems like he is "the" leader...dunno what it is...
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Old 10-22-2012   #37
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

Fans don't like it, but running plays to eat the clock when you have a lead is a time-tested strategy in the NFL.

High completion percentage / low risk plays on offense and relying on defense when leading has taken many teams to the Super Bowl.

I'm fairly certain that Bill Walsh, the tree that spawned Kubiak's branch, did the same thing. And Walsh is widely considered a genius coach.
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Old 10-22-2012   #38
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Fans don't like it, but running plays to eat the clock when you have a lead is a time-tested strategy in the NFL.
Well, there's a distinction that you're missing. Getting first downs to eat the clock is a time tested strategy. Running the ball 3 and out when you're barely into the 4th quarter and giving the ball back to an elite QB like Manning or Brees, not so much. If you run the ball to eat the clock, you have to convert a few 3rd downs. If you don't, you have to adjust. Yesterday was perfect - eighteen running plays to end the game, because they got first downs. Earlier this season against the Broncos was almost the other side of that coin.
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Old 10-22-2012   #39
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Fans don't like it, but running plays to eat the clock when you have a lead is a time-tested strategy in the NFL.

High completion percentage / low risk plays on offense and relying on defense when leading has taken many teams to the Super Bowl.

I'm fairly certain that Bill Walsh, the tree that spawned Kubiak's branch, did the same thing. And Walsh is widely considered a genius coach.
But getting first downs is also important. Good defense, bad defense, it don't matter. When a good team decides it wants to ice the clock, it is up to your team to stop them, get them off the field. Think about all those times MJD did it to us. Think about all those time Eddy George or Edgerin James or Marshall Faulk did it to other teams.

Nothing wrong with conservative, in my book, as long as you average more than 3.3 yards per play.
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Old 10-22-2012   #40
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Default Re: What happened to the turtle?

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Well, there's a distinction that you're missing. Getting first downs to eat the clock is a time tested strategy. Running the ball 3 and out when you're barely into the 4th quarter and giving the ball back to an elite QB like Manning or Brees, not so much. If you run the ball to eat the clock, you have to convert a few 3rd downs. If you don't, you have to adjust. Yesterday was perfect - eighteen running plays to end the game, because they got first downs. Earlier this season against the Broncos was almost the other side of that coin.
I do not disagree with you.

However, Kubiak is just calling the plays. I do not think Kubiak looks at 3 and out as a valid strategy. Every play is designed to be successful. Sometimes it is as simple as the players having to execute those plays. You can't really blame Kubiak if Schaub throws a ball to a receiver that is a yard short, or if they call a running play and some lineman blows his assignment. There's often a fine line between failure and success in the NFL. Sometimes that line is in control of the guys on the field.
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