The improbable improvement of Kareem Jackson

[ubecool454]

All I can say is that Kareem has a very tough job because Jonathan Joseph is not going to get many balls thrown his way. No CB in the league is not going to get beat sometimes. Maybe all you KJ haters would like to bring Demarcus Faggins back..lol. Since 2002 I can't think of but 2 CBs that were better than KJ and thats Joseph and Dunta...I won't put Aaron Glen in there because we got him when he was all washed up. If Wade likes KJ then I like him too.

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by ubecool454

I won't put Aaron Glen in there because we got him when he was all washed up.

Excuse me but WHAT? Aaron Glenn was 10 times the CB Dunta has ever been. He was so washed up he went to the pro bowl in 2002. He almost single handed won the game against Pittsburgh.

[Texn4life]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

Excuse me but WHAT? Aaron Glenn was 10 times the CB Dunta has ever been. He was so washed up he went to the pro bowl in 2002. He almost single handed won the game against Pittsburgh.

Almost? I would say he did win that game for us. AG was very much still a good Corner when he played for us starting off. He faded maybe his last year with us, but outside of that I was more than pleased with the job he did for us.

[ubecool454]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

Excuse me but WHAT? Aaron Glenn was 10 times the CB Dunta has ever been. He was so washed up he went to the pro bowl in 2002. He almost single handed won the game against Pittsburgh.

Opinions are never right or wrong but 10 times..lol. I'm not comparing Dunta to Aaron Glen here. I'm just saying Kareem is far from the worst CB we have seen around here in our brief history.

[Playmaker]

Originally Posted by ubecool454

Opinions are never right or wrong but 10 times..lol. I'm not comparing Dunta to Aaron Glen here. I'm just saying Kareem is far from the worst CB we have seen around here in our brief history.

Phillip Buchanon comes to mind.

[ChampionTexan]

Originally Posted by Playmaker

Phillip Buchanon comes to mind.

Not if I can help it.

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by ubecool454

Opinions are never right or wrong but 10 times..lol. I'm not comparing Dunta to Aaron Glen here. I'm just saying Kareem is far from the worst CB we have seen around here in our brief history.

I don't think KJ is as bad as people make out either. Call it 10 times or far better Glenn was not washed up when he got here and was in his time in Houston a far better CB than Dunta has ever sniffed at being.

He was also a very intelligent player - the kind it actually makes sense to talk about getting into coaching. He was brilliant at using his hands and subtle leans to shift WR's off their routes without getting calls by the refs (who he frequently talked to). You could also see him next to the kicking cage talking to Dunta and Faggins a bunch. During the games he was doing far more than the DB coach. Might be a reason Dunta's best season in the NFL was the one he spent with Glenn.

Oh and Glenn 3 time pro-bowler. Dunta - never will be pro-bowler.

[badboy]

Originally Posted by infantrycak

I don't think KJ is as bad as people make out either. Call it 10 times or far better Glenn was not washed up when he got here and was in his time in Houston a far better CB than Dunta has ever sniffed at being.

He was also a very intelligent player - the kind it actually makes sense to talk about getting into coaching. He was brilliant at using his hands and subtle leans to shift WR's off their routes without getting calls by the refs (who he frequently talked to). You could also see him next to the kicking cage talking to Dunta and Faggins a bunch. During the games he was doing far more than the DB coach. Might be a reason Dunta's best season in the NFL was the one he spent with Glenn.

Oh and Glenn 3 time pro-bowler. Dunta - never will be pro-bowler.

Bolded is what I'd like to see KJ develop into with coaching.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by kwayshauntay

Well I'll be, he turned to locate the ball, how 'bout that. You can't overstate the importance of turning to locate the ball. Because he did so in this instance, he was not called for PI even though he bumped into Hartline. When you turn to locate the ball, you are given more leeway if contact occurs, because you have just as much right to the ball as the receiver, provided that you turn your head to locate the ball.

I like the gifs, rep for you.

You make it sound as if we are saying the DB should never turn to locate the ball.

That's not what we're saying.'76 & I understand the importance of turning to locating the ball. Just pointing out that it isn't always necessary or practical.

I also don't think that was a bad play by Kareem. Could have been better, but not bad. The goal is to stop the receiver from catching the ball. But those guys usually catch balls or they sit on the bench or go home. So just because the receiver caught the ball, doesn't make it a bad play. It was a "difficult" catch.... I'll take that. There was no YAC, I'll take that.

The worst part of that play was how the receiver got past him. Kj got beat there & the receiver ran the route he wanted to, outside where Kj didn't have help.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Cason was clearly ahead of the receiver at the start when he first saw the ball.
Even though he ended up a little bit in the trail position, he was really close enough.
He had a pretty good idea where the ball is going to go from the beginning.
This is one instance that the DB has to look for the ball.

I don't know '76, looks like a bad throw by Palmer, the receiver had to slow down, giving Cason time to catch up. Had that ball been ahead of that receiver, looking back & locating the ball would have been bad... like you said originally.

Cason recovered well, made a good play & looking for the ball allowed him to do so. But he was originally toast.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by Rey

I think JJo was just being honest.

Is Kareem elite? No. He's not. Are there corners with better ball skills and natural instincts than Kareem? Absolutely.

But football isn't played in a vacuum. It helps when you are a well rounded player. While KAreem doesn't have the deep coverage skill of some guys, when teams run out on the edge or throw short routes in front of him, he is almost money. Kareem does a lot of good things, and honestly I love his physicality out on the edge and in coverage. He's more physical than Joseph, but he doesn't have the ball skills, speed or fluidity.

But Joseph sometimes gets out-bodied by receivers if you haven't noticed. What makes Joseph a top corner IMO is that he consistently is able to make plays on the ball and his elite athleticism.

Revis even gets beat at times and he is like the perfect mixture or what you'd want in a corner. Physical in coverage, good speed, quickness, fluidity and tremendous ball skills.

If Kareem had those ball skills and all that other stuff he'd be an top tier or elite corner.

My main argument with 76 over Kareem was about his rookie year and how I felt like he was trying to excuse Kareem's shortcomings. I never felt like he couldn't improve. And well, he has. He is a decent to good starting corner in the NFL.

Can we find a corner with better ball skills? Probably. Can we find an overall better player there? Maybe.
IF the opportunity arises to possibly upgrade the position, we should do it.
But Kareem is no longer the liability he used to be. I think we should appreciate that. He's going to have some bad moments...All corners do.

Best Kj post ever.

The only thing I will add is that if Kj is truly as smart as we were led to believe, he'll eventually figure out to be a top corner by maximizing the effects of what he can't do, & minimizing the effects of what he can't do. He may never lead the league in interceptions, but he can very well be the best at stopping the other guy from catching the ball.

[thunderkyss]

Originally Posted by kwayshauntay

I assume you mean this part of Rey's post:



So Brian freaking Hartline (Rey's words, but I share the sentiment) got a step or two on him, and he was unable to make up enough ground on Brian freaking Hartline to comfortably be able to turn and locate the ball. Is that supposed to make me feel better about Kareem?

Really not trying to defend Kj, especially not on this play. But if I were his DB Coach, the biggest thing I would "coach" Kj on is that the receiver never should have been allowed to get outside of him, so easily. There was just too much space for one man to cover. If Kj couldn't stop him from getting over there, he should at least have made him work for it, allowing our pass rush to get to the QB.

Hartline is running up & out, Kj is out of the play once he allowed Hartline to get outside & ahead of him.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by Fiddler

I don't know '76, looks like a bad throw by Palmer, the receiver had to slow down, giving Cason time to catch up. Had that ball been ahead of that receiver, looking back & locating the ball would have been bad... like you said originally.

Cason recovered well, made a good play & looking for the ball allowed him to do so. But he was originally toast.

It wasn't a good throw, but the CB sometimes plays underneath to look for the INT with inside safety help. We use J Jo that way at times. Even Dunta was used that way at times.

[silvrhand]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

It wasn't a good throw, but the CB sometimes plays underneath to look for the INT with inside safety help. We use J Jo that way at times. Even Dunta was used that way at times.

76Texan, not in that raiders example, that's a rather bad example the receiver simply slowed down and was trying to head back to the ball giving the CB a huge advantage, if that ball is 5 more yards down the field that's 6 points for palmer. Both the CB/safety were beat on that.

The GB/SF example was much more in line with what you expect, but then again it's more than just getting your head back, it's knowing what to look for from the receiver to see he's getting the ball, to the sideline yelling "ball", the receivers eyes, all of that has to come into play to learn when to look back.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by silvrhand

76Texan, not in that raiders example, that's a rather bad example the receiver simply slowed down and was trying to head back to the ball giving the CB a huge advantage, if that ball is 5 more yards down the field that's 6 points for palmer. Both the CB/safety were beat on that.

Originally Posted by kwayshauntay

Antoine Cason (2008 1st round pick, 27th overall)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-M4xTUOOCDk...600/cason1.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oVyOj8lnO-...600/cason2.gif

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kpn-hHVTux...600/cason3.gif

I understand where you come from, SH.

Let's not get to the part where both the CB and safety got beat yet.

We had Pollard with an INT his first year with the Texans on a play like this.
We rolled Pollard out without the QB suspecting it.
The QB thought the receiver had the CB beat, and Pollard ended up with an INT.

Every time the CB play this kind of leverage, we should expect some kind of safety help.

Sometimes we bait the offense into an INT, sometimes we lose.

If the D doesn't bait, the CB should play the receiver closer - and not the ball, like Cason did here.
At any rate, the CB's real concern is a sideline route by the receiver.
What I said was that the safety at least will take care of the skinny post and the post route.

This gives the CB more leeway to play more aggressively.

He chose to play the ball to look for an INT, and like you said, if it was a better throw, it would have been a long completion.

Our friend here who was good enough to put up the vid, wanted to show how the CB was able to "locate the ball" and defended the play.

It wasn't so.

I said it's good as long as the coverage called for the safety to help over the top; otherwise, it's a long completion for the offense.

This is a totally different scenario from a CB playing from a real trail position, and that was what I tried to explain to the poster who I gave plenty of kudos for putting up the vid.

We can see that if the CB was truly on an island with the receiver here, a good pass downfield and he would have been toast by "locating the ball".

A few other posters also agreed, locating the ball by turning the head needs to be done judicially, when the CB is in good position, otherwise he stands to lose much more often (it works sometimes on bad throws though - but that kind of defense is based on hope, if you know what I mean.)

[EllisUnit]

I'll say this i saw a few things from KJ in the first game i liked and some i didnt like. He still isnt locating the ball on deep routes like he needs to be. That why he gave up that long reception to that white WR whos name i dont know.

[76Texan]

Originally Posted by EllisUnit

I'll say this i saw a few things from KJ in the first game i liked and some i didnt like. He still isnt locating the ball on deep routes like he needs to be. That why he gave up that long reception to that white WR whos name i dont know.

Dude, wake up.

KJ gave up that play because he couldn't get into good enough position.

He needs to work harder to get into better position.

Rey's criticsim, I can understand 90-95% of the time.
Yours, not so much, I'm afraid.

OK, so I'm trying to understand here.

You said he still isn't locating the ball on deep route like he needs to be.

I hope you can explain to us what KJ needed to do here on this play.

And then maybe I can ask you to elaborate on some other plays later.

[EllisUnit]

Originally Posted by 76Texan

Dude, wake up.

KJ gave up that play because he couldn't get into good enough position.

He needs to work harder to get into better position.

Rey's criticsim, I can understand 90-95% of the time.
Yours, not so much, I'm afraid.

OK, so I'm trying to understand here.

You said he still isn't locating the ball on deep route like he needs to be.

I hope you can explain to us what KJ needed to do here on this play.

And then maybe I can ask you to elaborate on some other plays later.

he didnt turn to look for the ball, r put his hands up. saw same thing on two plays.......

[welsh texan]

I could be completely wrong on this but I'll run it by you guys, in particular 76's take on this;

KJ has a weakness in deep coverage, but a real strength in the shorter game.

KJ will be picked on throughout a game because the QB doesn't want to throw it Joseph's way, less of a KJ thing and more of a JoJo thing.

Therefore when KJ turns and runs he knows there is a high chance of the ball getting thrown his way.

What I see, is that KJ has improved at staying with his receiver, but doesn't have the ability to get that step ahead of the play to where he can make a play on the ball himself, so ends up making the receivers life as difficult as possible to catch the ball instead.

This would seem to me, to be a coached tendency. KJ gave up a few big plays down the stretch last year where he had really tight coverage and it was simply a great throw & catch by the offence, the Julio Jones one springs to mind.

Why would he look to make a play on the ball at the risk of giving up an easy catch for a whole bunch of yardage? I don't get where the problem is here. He makes life difficult for the receiver and is turning what is a weakness into something where he's forcing a great play by the receiver rather than gambling and risking a huge loss.

I'd much rather watch the Texans lose to a bunch of great plays by an opposing offense, than watch them lose to a bunch of easy plays because of poor coaching. I'd also much prefer them to win dominantly and only give up 1 FG on D. So I really won't complain.

76, 18 months ago I was highly skeptical of what you were saying about KJ being able to come good, what I saw last season was a steady improvement and what I see now is a mostly reliable #2 CB which is more than what half the league have at the position. That makes it a really good pick in my view.

Speaks volumes of the previous Defensive staff that they thought he could lead the team as a rookie, but its all worked out in the end.

[EllisUnit]

Originally Posted by welsh texan

I could be completely wrong on this but I'll run it by you guys, in particular 76's take on this;

KJ has a weakness in deep coverage, but a real strength in the shorter game.

KJ will be picked on throughout a game because the QB doesn't want to throw it Joseph's way, less of a KJ thing and more of a JoJo thing.

Therefore when KJ turns and runs he knows there is a high chance of the ball getting thrown his way.

What I see, is that KJ has improved at staying with his receiver, but doesn't have the ability to get that step ahead of the play to where he can make a play on the ball himself, so ends up making the receivers life as difficult as possible to catch the ball instead.
This would seem to me, to be a coached tendency. KJ gave up a few big plays down the stretch last year where he had really tight coverage and it was simply a great throw & catch by the offence, the Julio Jones one springs to mind.

Why would he look to make a play on the ball at the risk of giving up an easy catch for a whole bunch of yardage? I don't get where the problem is here. He makes life difficult for the receiver and is turning what is a weakness into something where he's forcing a great play by the receiver rather than gambling and risking a huge loss.

I'd much rather watch the Texans lose to a bunch of great plays by an opposing offense, than watch them lose to a bunch of easy plays because of poor coaching. I'd also much prefer them to win dominantly and only give up 1 FG on D. So I really won't complain.

76, 18 months ago I was highly skeptical of what you were saying about KJ being able to come good, what I saw last season was a steady improvement and what I see now is a mostly reliable #2 CB which is more than what half the league have at the position. That makes it a really good pick in my view.

Speaks volumes of the previous Defensive staff that they thought he could lead the team as a rookie, but its all worked out in the end.

our just get pass interference called on him A LOT, which is what will happen